258 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Sylvianus wrote...
Indeed. Loghain YOU do not consider him as a traitor. But  apparently ( dragon ag e wiki ) the people of Gwaren and Ferelden do not think the same thing as you. And this is normal.

Which is in opposition to the way he was portrayed in Origins. He never really stopped having the support of the people, it's the nobles who were in opposition to him. Not to mention, if he becomes a Warden and sacrifices himself, he is even more the hero he was before. Not this person who's so reviled that his own people looted his house. I find that to be a ridiculous and over the top way to get Loghain's armor. Even if they'd said some loved him and some hated him, it would have been a better entry. As it is, it's simply boring.

When you betray your country, never forget that everyone will never have the same view on this kind of act. This kind of act, it's For Life. Love or hate. The king was the son of  Maric, their hero, Cailan their current  king, Loghain left him to the darkspawn. Thousands of people were counting on him, trusted him and he left them in the hands of darkspawn in terrible suffering. He abandoned the battle and turned away.

This blog pretty well explains my view of Ostagar, so my opinion is that he did not betray anyone, and in fact likely saved Ferelden by saving their armies.

Never  Loghain will have  unanimous support of a country after that. Never.

Debateable of course, but not here.

I have no doubt that this is a patriot, but the facts are there. How can you deny all that ? In my opinion, his eyes were too stayed at the past, still convinced he was the only one who can save Ferelden, whatever the cost for the kingdom itself.

See above.

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

And I strongly disagree for reasons that are too involved to get into in this thread.

As for the codex entry itself, it's not written by a person, it's just unauthored and therefore it's Bioware's opinion on the character. He was a very interesting character in Origins and in that game the players were allowed to make their own decision about him. In this game however, we're beaten over the head with "betrayal." They've taken a nuanced character and instead of allowing that nuance to carry over they've pushed him into the flat, one-note villian mode that the other two are in.

Perhaps the DA2 narrative ref, as well as Thedas history is written by the survivors; not objective historians. In this case, perhaps the historical record, codex, and tale spring from matters including legends, camp stories, and known associations that influence the actual truth. This may or may not be actual DA canon, though I personally hold that it is, IMO.

And maybe the Roguish armor is something Howe had contracted to link with Loghain, much like Aveline's shield.

The new companion items seem quite helpful. Thanks!

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
Perhaps the DA2 narrative ref, as well as Thedas history is written by the survivors; not objective historians. In this case, perhaps the historical record, codex, and tale spring from matters including legends, camp stories, and known associations that influence the actual truth. This may or may not be actual DA canon, though I personally hold that it is, IMO.

And this is a clear case where I'd much rather have a historian's name associated with the entry rather than it being nameless. That way I can blame it on So-and-So instead of lazy writing.

The new companion items seem quite helpful. Thanks!

I do like the item pack and I enjoy trotting around in Loghain's armor, because even my Hawke is a fangirl, but it's just things like a codex entry that make my head feel like someone's driving a stake through it. Grrrr.........

[Sylvianus]

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
1- Indeed. Loghain YOU do not consider him as a traitor. But  apparently ( dragon ag e wiki ) the people of Gwaren and Ferelden do not think the same thing as you. And this is normal.

Which is in opposition to the way he was portrayed in Origins. He never really stopped having the support of the people, it's the nobles who were in opposition to him. Not to mention, if he becomes a Warden and sacrifices himself, he is even more the hero he was before. Not this person who's so reviled that his own people looted his house. I find that to be a ridiculous and over the top way to get Loghain's armor. Even if they'd said some loved him and some hated him, it would have been a better entry. As it is, it's simply boring.

When you betray your country, never forget that everyone will never have the same view on this kind of act. This kind of act, it's For Life. Love or hate. The king was the son of  Maric, their hero, Cailan their current  king, Loghain left him to the darkspawn. Thousands of people were counting on him, trusted him and he left them in the hands of darkspawn in terrible suffering. He abandoned the battle and turned away.

This blog pretty well explains my view of Ostagar, so my opinion is that he did not betray anyone, and in fact likely saved Ferelden by saving their armies.

Never  Loghain will have  unanimous support of a country after that. Never.

2- Debateable of course, but not here.

I have no doubt that this is a patriot, but the facts are there. How can you deny all that ? In my opinion, his eyes were too stayed at the past, still convinced he was the only one who can save Ferelden, whatever the cost for the kingdom itself.

See above.

1- Sorry I disagree,  to say that the battle was already lost, is pure presumption. I rather think they were going to win, Ostagar was perfect to deal with overcrowding. Who is right ? Te fact remains. Loghain turned away during the battle when his king and thousand son of Ferelden needeed him.

2- And no it is not debeatable. When you betray an army (which may be did for good reasons can be in your opinion,)  thousands of sons of Ferelden died, you condemn their families, the banns ruined, lords etc etc;

Obviously they can feel the hate after that despite what loghain did to be forgiven after the warden forced him to surrender. Lohain left nobles tortured, sold fereldiens citizen, was the origin of a civil war by denying the outcome of the conclave and claiming the regency.

And you think after that, everyone would consider him a hero even after the war ? It's naive in my opinion. Yes some may consider him as a hero, and other first as a traitor and a criminal.

Now for the lore, I wouldn't be worry, because it was written as a short story, it didn't say that necessarily everybody hated loghain. It shows just, that treason has always consequences even if after you saved your people.

But anyways, Loghain in my playthough, I practiced over him the king's justice, and he died, his head cut off from the rest. The winners write the story, and everyone will remember him as a hero in dane, and especially a traitor during the fifth blight. For me, Loghain is like the General Petain in France. a hero in 1914, in  second world war, a traitor, a criminal hated today. We can disagree as well.

Now, I leave it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 août 2011 - 10:28 .

[Monica21]

Sylvianus wrote...

<snip>

Hey, I like the new item pack! You too? Great!

[Sylvianus]

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

<snip>

Hey, I like the new item pack! You too? Great!

I loooove it ! youhouu !

[AngryFrozenWater]

Like the first there isn't much high end stuff in this pack. There's one chest piece that can be considered high end. Of course using that one will break the set bonus of your other armor. That's not handy on higher difficulty settings. Some of the stuff have nice stats, but most have either too low armor or damage ratings.

Most of the stuff looks good and I like idea of the axes for rogues.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[Mike3207]

Let me compare it to this-BW comes out with a item pack with a couple Alistair weapon and armor pieces and introduces the following codex-"Alistair Theirin was a traitor to the Grey Wardens and Ferelden for refusing to participate in the 5th Blight after the Landsmeet spared Loghain". The codex is meant to provide facts, and it just looks like BW is doing a hatchet job on the Mac Tirs.

1. A slanted Ostagar Betrayal theme at the start of DA2.
2. 3 cameos for Alistair in DA2, none for Loghain or Anora.
3. This codex which does a hatchet job on Loghain.

I really hope I'm wrong, but it just looks like BW is going to abandon all the Mac Tir fans out there.

[thats1evildude]

Mike Smith wrote...

I really hope I'm wrong, but it just looks like BW is going to abandon all the Mac Tir fans out there.

I weep for your predicament. <_<

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Mike Smith wrote...

Let me compare it to this-BW comes out with a item pack with a couple Alistair weapon and armor pieces and introduces the following codex-"Alistair Theirin was a traitor to the Grey Wardens and Ferelden for refusing to participate in the 5th Blight after the Landsmeet spared Loghain". The codex is meant to provide facts, and it just looks like BW is doing a hatchet job on the Mac Tirs.

1. A slanted Ostagar Betrayal theme at the start of DA2.
2. 3 cameos for Alistair in DA2, none for Loghain or Anora.
3. This codex which does a hatchet job on Loghain.

I really hope I'm wrong, but it just looks like BW is going to abandon all the Mac Tir fans out there.

Except that example is highly skewed because it only represents ONE possible outcome determined by player choice. So, in addition, it would be canonizing certain decisions, which would be double un-good. But as an example in this debate, it doesn't really work, because no matter what Origin you choose or how you deal with Loghain, he still betrayed Cailan at Ostagar. That always happens, no matter what. Which is why it is ok (IMO) for the codex to call him a betrayer without any further exposition or clarification. It is what it is.

[Mike3207]

outlaworacle wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Let me compare it to this-BW comes out with a item pack with a couple Alistair weapon and armor pieces and introduces the following codex-"Alistair Theirin was a traitor to the Grey Wardens and Ferelden for refusing to participate in the 5th Blight after the Landsmeet spared Loghain". The codex is meant to provide facts, and it just looks like BW is doing a hatchet job on the Mac Tirs.

1. A slanted Ostagar Betrayal theme at the start of DA2.
2. 3 cameos for Alistair in DA2, none for Loghain or Anora.
3. This codex which does a hatchet job on Loghain.

I really hope I'm wrong, but it just looks like BW is going to abandon all the Mac Tir fans out there.

Except that example is highly skewed because it only represents ONE possible outcome determined by player choice. So, in addition, it would be canonizing certain decisions, which would be double un-good. But as an example in this debate, it doesn't really work, because no matter what Origin you choose or how you deal with Loghain, he still betrayed Cailan at Ostagar. That always happens, no matter what. Which is why it is ok (IMO) for the codex to call him a betrayer without any further exposition or clarification. It is what it is.

No, it's canon that Loghain retreated at Ostagar, and it's an opinion that he betrayed Cailan. It's not OK to call him a betrayer in the codex.He even makes it clear in RTO that the darkspawn would have had either Cailan or the entire army. I just don't like the developers taking sides like that, and taking away the choices you made.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 23 août 2011 - 11:32 .

[Sylvianus]

No it's canon he left an army during the battle and he betrayed his king, the army, the grey warden surrounded by the ennemy after his treason at ostagar. it's a fact, not opinion. He betrayed his kingdom during the fight against the darkspawns at Ostagar.

He said he would launch the charge, and in fact he lied and he left. He betrayed for good reasons ? Maybe. But that's not the point.

What is opinion, that is if it's understandable or not for you. The nature of his actions is clearly defined, and nothing will change the facts.

No need for Bioware to lie on his actions to please you. Not their fault if you are unable to understand the nature of his acts. I love Loghain but I'm not blind. Treason, it's treason. The word is perfectly appropriate.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 août 2011 - 11:39 .

[Morroian]

Mike Smith wrote...

No, it's canon that Loghain retreated at Ostagar, and it's an opinion that he betrayed Cailan. It's not OK to call him a betrayer in the codex.He even makes it clear in RTO that the darkspawn would have had either Cailan or the entire army. I just don't like the developers taking sides like that, and taking away the choices you made.

Since when has the codex been the unvarnished truth? Its full of myth and opinions, thats the idea its a history. History is written by the victors that's all this is an indication of.

Modifié par Morroian, 23 août 2011 - 11:43 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Mike Smith wrote...


No, it's canon that Loghain
retreated at Ostagar, and it's an opinion that he betrayed Cailan. It's
not OK to call him a betrayer in the codex.He even makes it clear in RTO
that the darkspawn would have had either Cailan or the entire army. I
just don't like the developers taking sides like that, and taking away
the choices you made.

That's extreme semantics. I really don't think we're gonna make much progress here so I'll try to make this my last jab in the match, but "retreat" vs "betray", um... his retreat WAS the betrayal; when you tell someone you're going to have their back and then retreat instead, you are betraying them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to me, that is not in the sphere of opinion. If it is a fact that he retreated, then it's a fact that he betrayed Cailan. Strategery(sic), paranoia, patriotism, whatever the reasons, doesn't change those facts.

The NON-betraying thing to do would have been to stand his ground and tell Cailan he wasn't going through with the plan and if he wanted to make a stand at Ostagar, he and his forces would be on their own. He said all along he didn't think it was going to work. Where the betrayal comes is that he looked Cailan in the face and said "yeah dude, got your back" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) and then when the time came, saved his own ass and left Cailan to die.

NOW, lastly, I agree it is in the realm of conjecture/opinion whether that was his plan all along and/or whether his primary motivation in retreating was letting Cailan die so he could seize power or if that was ancillary. But it is not opinion or conjecture that Loghain made a promise to Cailan and didn't follow through on it, and that resulted in Cailan's death. If you don't see that as betrayal, I'd go as far as to say you are being willfully blind and twisting the meaning of words because you love the character so much.

I love Loghain too. But he betrayed Cailan, clear as day.

And I definitely don't see how it effects any of the choices the player makes. Ostagar goes down how it goes down, the Warden is a bit player in the story at that point. Unless you mean you got the Redeemer ending for Loghain, and then I suppose there's a fair point.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 23 août 2011 - 11:51 .

[Mike3207]

Sylvianus wrote...

No it's canon he left an army during the battle and he betrayed his king, the army, the grey warden surrounded by the ennemy after his treason at ostagar. it's a fact, not opinion. He betrayed his kingdom during the fight against the darkspawns at Ostagar.

He said he would launch the charge, and in fact he lied and he left. He betrayed for good reasons ? Maybe. But that's not the point.

What is opinion, that is if it's understandable or not for you. The nature of his actions is clearly defined, and nothing will change the facts.

No need for Bioware to lie on his actions to please you. Not their fault if you are unable to understand the nature of his acts. I love Loghain but I'm not blind. Treason, it's treason. The word is perfectly appropriate.

Circumstances change in the course of a battle. it's perfectly conceivable that it was possible for him to support the king before the battle, but that he faced a hard choice in making sure the army stayed intact if he had gone back for the king-no betrayal was involved. It's your opinion it was a betrayal, and nothing more. If treason had been involved, that argument would have worked at the Landsmeet-it didn't.I will let the issue drop however-I've made the dicison to not purchase future item packs because of this.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 23 août 2011 - 11:53 .

[Sylvianus]

Anyway, even outside of Ferelden his action is necessarily considered like treachery, since they don't know really wo he is. So, A general who has betrayed his king, it's normal that Varric, who comes from Kirkwall speaks of betrayal.

For Allistair in the codex, it is his point of view.

And in the lore for the item pack, it shows just the controversy about the feeling of some people toward this character.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 août 2011 - 11:51 .

[Big_Chief]

Okay, I like the scythe looking things for rogues, that's pretty neat. I might consider getting this, I'm not sure. I tried the last set, and don't know that it was worth it. So who knows.

[Sylvianus]

Mike Smith wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

No it's canon he left an army during the battle and he betrayed his king, the army, the grey warden surrounded by the ennemy after his treason at ostagar. it's a fact, not opinion. He betrayed his kingdom during the fight against the darkspawns at Ostagar.

He said he would launch the charge, and in fact he lied and he left. He betrayed for good reasons ? Maybe. But that's not the point.

What is opinion, that is if it's understandable or not for you. The nature of his actions is clearly defined, and nothing will change the facts.

No need for Bioware to lie on his actions to please you. Not their fault if you are unable to understand the nature of his acts. I love Loghain but I'm not blind. Treason, it's treason. The word is perfectly appropriate.

Circumstances change in the course of a battle. it's perfectly conceivable that it was possible for him to support the king before the battle, but that he faced a hard choice in making sure the army stayed intact if he had gone back for the king-no betrayal was involved. It's your opinion it was a betrayal, and nothing more. If treason had been involved, that argument would have worked at the Landsmeet-it didn't.I will let the issue drop however-I've made the dicison to not purchase future item packs because of this.

No the opinion doesn't play a role here. The opinion plays a role there : " Loghain is a hero, his action was a
necessity. Too bad he had to betray his king to save his kingdom. "

What does treason mean ? Treason is defined as the one who has to give up someone or a whole groupe who trusted in you, to deliver them to the enemies or to deceive their confidence or principles.

What Loghain did. It's not a complaint, it is a fact.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 12:51 .

[Elessara]

I don't like the axes. Ok so I like them better than the meat cleavers. But I'd still like something I can actually backstab with, you know?

I don't like the staff. I like the naked lady on a stick better than the ... what are they, stuffed toys tied to the top of a tree branch? I don't know.

I haven't seen the warrior gear.

I kind of like the mage and rogue armor though. A little disappointed that both sets shared the same graphics. The codex entries were interesting.

[standardpack]

Figures they wouldn't have a longsword in THIS item pack either. Still waiting on one that doesn't suck, of which there are only about 3 in the game that come close including from other dlc's.

[FieryDove]

Elessara wrote...

I don't like the axes. Ok so I like them better than the meat cleavers. But I'd still like something I can actually backstab with, you know?

Are the axes considered axes? Can we use maces and longswords now too as rogues?

[devSin]

They're hatchets, silly. Of course you can't use axes. :-)

At least the warrior battleaxe has a blade that doesn't look stupid when the character spends the entire combat trying to stab with it. I never could use axes, because it was always 'poke poke poke' with the blunt tip.

Modifié par devSin, 24 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[Auru]

DA2 DLC!

items..

Boooooooooring

sad face

[FieryDove]

devSin wrote...

They're hatchets, silly. Of course you can't use axes. :-)

At least the warrior battleaxe has a blade that doesn't look stupid when the character spends the entire combat trying to stab with it. I never could use axes, because it was always 'poke poke poke' with the blunt tip.

Well meat cleavers are not what I considered "dagger class" either. Plus they don't go with my characters style at all. Maybe if I make a aggressive butcher type Hawke...but still.

Do they have high rez textures built in?

If Legacy gets patched well I would consider buying this. Otherwise...

[devSin]

Yes, I believe all the items have hi-res textures in this one (including the weapons).

I'm not going to go look for the pictures again, but I think the daggers looked more like pickaxes than the normal axes (the head is much smaller, and pointy). Somebody has pictures of them somewhere, if you haven't seen them yet.