130 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

TheOptimist wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Spectres do have a great deal of freedom, but Mass Effect did make clear that the Spectres still have to answer to the Council, as Saren losing his Spectre status demonstrates. The question was whether the Council could get their hands on Saren, not whether they had the political power to stop him.

True.  Then again, given that:
1: The Council is actively engaged in denying the Reaper threat and does not want to give Shepard a forum to voice his/her evidence to the contrary; and

2: The Batarians have no way to launch a complaint on the Citadel due to closing their embassy themselves a few decades before the events of the games;

the Council may very well be content to leave this to the Alliance as an internal matter, provided the 'correct' verdict is reached. 

I agree with point 1, but I also believe that if the Council generally wanted to silence him they'd have sent active Spectres to put him out of their misery.

As for point 2, unless the Council retracted the right for the Batarians to have an embassy they should be able to sign a few forms and start up a new embassy relatively quickly if they need to. Even if they don't want to, the Council would certainly meet with their ambassadors to try and head off a war that might damage the Council's interests.

On the broaders points of the thread:

a. The trial is on Earth because it makes for a more dramatic story if it is, and also because the Alliance were the ones who brought charges against Shepard which gives them control over the proceedings.
b. Spectre status only provides as much immunity as individual states are willing to recognise and the Council is willing to enforce. Shepard also remains subject to the Alliance's internal justice mechanisms, having never abandoned his commission in the Alliance upon becoming a Spectre, a fact that both he and Hackett refer ingame.
c. I hope the trial isn't just a political maneuver. No one should have carte blanche to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives without being compelled to justify it in a meaningful inquest. I do accept the Deus Ex Machina of Shepard being cleared by the trial, but even his supporters should be left feeling sick at the scale of the horror.

[Goneaviking]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

MrDizaztar wrote...

Who is to say that what happened in Arrival is the only reason why Shepard was on trail. My theory is that they have Shepard guilty on multiple account of other crap, such as working with a known terrorist organization.

Please point out exactly where it's a terrorist organization.

*Ahem*

Akuze.

Doesn't count, terrorism requires attacks on civilians by non-state actors. The crime at Akuze was an attack on military personnel engineered by rogue elements of the same military.

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

[marshalleck]

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

[MrDizazta]

Activity Highlights (for more extensive list of shell companies, see "Cerberus Economic Structure, Vol. 1-4")
2157 - Manifesto published.

2160 - Facility on Pragia constructed.

2161 - Subject Zero born. CDR Holdings purchased. Terra Nova Commonwealth Bank purchased.

2162 - Infiltration of human media begins, specializing in extrasolar news: Constant Times; Scott Examiner; nascent Galactic Broadcasting Corporation.

2163 - Project DOORWAY makes forgery of Council-standard medicards and identitags possible, allowing agents unrestricted movement.

2164 - Scott Examiner destroys credibility of Vera Safin, front-runner for Prime Minister of Systems Alliance. Leak to Galactic Broadcasting Corporation stopped by agents in place.

2165 - Operatives steal antimatter from the SSV Geneva. Assignment goes wrong, but discipline holds and squad fights to the death. Sole survivor divulges little but names his sponsor "Cerberus." Recruitment increases, but stringent standards slow growth.

2166 - Haribon Military Industries purchased on Terra Nova. Legitimate arms contract to colonial forces; models without serial numbers produced for export to crime syndicates in batarian space, Terminus Systems.

2167 - Cerberus agents among humans recruited into Global Maritime Justice organization on Trident.

2168 - Assassination of 22 salarian crime syndicate members on Trident leads to takeover of narcotics trade. Reprisals bloody but tolerable. Milky Way Foundation created to funnel money. New Dawn Pharmaceuticals purchased to begin project TRAPDOOR.

2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic powers. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible.

2170 - Nanosurgery on Subject Zero successful: omega-enkaphalin fails to work on appropriate receptors. Program begins to instill other Cerberus operatives with resistance to "O-E."

2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.

2173 - Inez Simmons resigns as head of Terra Firma party; front-runner Claude Mennau assassinated; Charles Saracino much more tractable.

2174 - Radium placed inside office chair of Systems Alliance parliamentarian Artyom Gavrikov. Gavrikov's death attributed to cancer. Emergency election much cheaper to manipulate than normal process. Cerberus-backed candidate loses; winning candidate approached, found susceptible to bribes.

2175 - Michael Moser Lang approached by operatives in militia community -- insider information given for stock buy to provide him with funding. Contact severed, but electronic surveillance remains. Lang purchases armaments.
--Influx of humans into Trident political scene leads to renaming of capital with human name - New Cousteau.

2176 - Electronic surveillance removed from Lang's home. Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong. Resulting approval bump for Vice-President Belknap allows passage of financial reform bill allowing for increased loopholes in colony-based shell companies. Fighting among Vice-Premiers a bonus, as Lin Yi alienates Politburo Standing Committee and his chances of election to the Systems Alliance Parliament are dashed.

2177 - Successful acquisition of Light Shadow Pictures' proprietary "RealityPlus" video editing machine. Capacity to forge photorealistic video is now unsurpassed.

2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

2181 - Military arm creates posts on planet Binthu.

2182 - MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.
- Admiral Kahoku begins investigation of suspected Cerberus activities.

(see Competition Details for more recent activity)

Modifié par MrDizaztar, 19 août 2011 - 02:18 .

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

So was September 11th.

Tasteless and simply wrong-headed to boot. Cerberus went to the fleet in Ascension to recover Gillian. That the quarians resisted and combat broke out was unfortunate.

[marshalleck]

MrDizaztar wrote...
*snip*

You might want to highlight the terrorist actions in that copy pasta, if that was your reason for posting it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 02:14 .

[Sisterofshane]

Goneaviking wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

MrDizaztar wrote...

Who is to say that what happened in Arrival is the only reason why Shepard was on trail. My theory is that they have Shepard guilty on multiple account of other crap, such as working with a known terrorist organization.

Please point out exactly where it's a terrorist organization.

*Ahem*

Akuze.

Doesn't count, terrorism requires attacks on civilians by non-state actors. The crime at Akuze was an attack on military personnel engineered by rogue elements of the same military.

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/  (as defined by Meriam-Webster Online Dictionary)Noun: The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.



The victims do not have to be civilians, the aggresors do not have to seperate from government entities.

Interestingly enough, though, Akuze was NOT an act of terrorism, but only because there were no poilitcal intentions.

Cerberus, however, could be considered a terrorist organization.

[JGDD]

Goneaviking wrote...

c. I hope the trial isn't just a political maneuver. No one should have carte blanche to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives without being compelled to justify it in a meaningful inquest. I do accept the Deus Ex Machina of Shepard being cleared by the trial, but even his supporters should be left feeling sick at the scale of the horror.

Someone needs to pay and Shepard is the best candidate for this. For my canon run I accept this fate knowing what the implications are otherwise. Also, given Hackett's personal debriefing of Shepard, some of that feeling of horror/disbelief was conveyed.

[marshalleck]

Paramilitary? Yes. Seditionist? Yes. Terrorist? No.

Terrorist is a defamatory slur a state attaches to those it views as undesirables and/or opponents.

As they say, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 02:20 .

[Sisterofshane]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

So was September 11th.

Tasteless and simply wrong-headed to boot. Cerberus went to the fleet in Ascension to recover Gillian. That the quarians resisted and combat broke out was unfortunate.

Did Cerberus ask for permission?

Did the Japanese ask for permission when they bombed Pearl Harbor?

Permission has nothing to do with it.

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

So was September 11th.

Tasteless and simply wrong-headed to boot. Cerberus went to the fleet in Ascension to recover Gillian. That the quarians resisted and combat broke out was unfortunate.

Did Cerberus ask for permission?

No. How does that make it a terrorist act? 

[Someone With Mass]

This again? Really? Just call Cerberus idiotic extremists and be done with it.

[Sisterofshane]

marshalleck wrote...

Paramilitary? Yes. Seditionist? Yes. Terrorist? No.

Terrorist is an epithet a state attaches to those it views as undesirables and/or opponents.

As they say, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Come come, now.  I said "could".  Any person, government, organization could potentially be labled as "terrorist".  I think it just depends upon the context of the situation.

[PrinceLionheart]

Because when you're getting tried for war crimes, you're put on trial in your own country/planet. Since The Batarians are not a Citadel race, this doesn't concern the Council (as long as Earth takes action against Shepard.)

[JGDD]

Someone With Mass wrote...

This again? Really? Just call Cerberus idiotic extremists and be done with it.

Then do yourself (and those of us actively discussing this topic) a favor by self-moderating and staying out of the topic. It saves us from reading your bemoaning and we can carry on with little distraction.

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Did the Japanese ask for permission when they bombed Pearl Harbor?

Permission has nothing to do with it.

So Cerberus went in unannounced (like terrorists), and attacked (like terrorists).

This rationale is utterly juvenile. If these are the criteria, almost any covert action by anyone in the galaxy is "terrorist."

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 02:25 .

[Lord Jaric]

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

So was September 11th.

Tasteless and simply wrong-headed to boot. Cerberus went to the fleet in Ascension to recover Gillian. That the quarians resisted and combat broke out was unfortunate.

Ceberus lunching an attack on the quarian fleet, yes it was an attack from what I remember, by killing some quarians, taking their ship back to the fleet (which is as much as civilian ships as it is military) to take a child that they had no rights over and clearly didn’t want anything to do with them, from what I can remember she use her biotics on the team sent to get her, this is pretty much terrorism and kidnapping.

[marshalleck]

Lord Jaric wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Attacking the migrant fleet was a terrorist act however.

That was a military action to acquire assets. Any political fallout was incidental.

So was September 11th.

Tasteless and simply wrong-headed to boot. Cerberus went to the fleet in Ascension to recover Gillian. That the quarians resisted and combat broke out was unfortunate.

Ceberus lunching an attack on the quarian fleet, yes it was an attack from what I remember, by killing some quarians, taking their ship back to the fleet (which is as much as civilian ships as it is military) to take a child that they had no rights over and clearly didn’t want anything to do with them, from what I can remember she use her biotics on the team sent to get her, this is pretty much terrorism and kidnapping.

So what was the political action they were intending to strongarm the quarian government into by inspiring fear in the quarian population?

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 02:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Then do yourself (and those of us actively discussing this topic) a favor by self-moderating and staying out of the topic. It saves us from reading your bemoaning and we can carry on with little distraction.

It's funny, because deciding whenever Cerberus are a bunch of terrorists or not have little to do with this topic, since both the Alliance and the Council both think that Cerberus are in fact terrorists, and I really doubt Shepard's opinion on the matter will carry much weight.

Thus rendering the whole thing...pointless.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Did the Japanese ask for permission when they bombed Pearl Harbor?

Permission has nothing to do with it.

So Cerberus went in unannounced (like terrorists), and attacked (like terrorists).

This rationale is utterly juvenile. If these are the criteria, almost any covert action by anyone in the galaxy is "terrorist."

Yes, depending on your perspective.

The US Navy SEALs are terrorists?

thats terrifying.