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[TEWR]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not really. The demon was sundered from the Veil and Fade much like Justice was, and trapped in a statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped.

We know that the Eluvians lead beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade, and that Audacity was disconnected from the Fade entirely. He couldn’t have used the Eluvian a gateway to escape.

Some people speculate that the Eluvians lead to the Black City, but I highly doubt that’s the case. It just wouldn’t add up to Morrigan’s goals, especially given the facts that we know the Black City twisted Corypheus into one of the first Awakened Darkspawn and that the Black City is connected to the taint. Why would Morrigan pointlessly endanger herself? We know that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and got fancy telephones.

Now, they could’ve used an ancient arcane spell that has long since been forgotten to make the Eluvians go there, but I doubt that as well.

It’s my belief that Audacity was earnestly helping Merrill but had the ulterior motive of playing on Marethari’s pride to get her to release him. Judging by Merrill’s replies and reactions, it seems that only certain spells could actually free him and that she had no intention of doing so. She asked Hawke to accompany her incase something unexpected happened when she went to talk to the demon, but that doesn’t mean she said “Hey Hawke! I’m gonna go free a demon! Come watch okay?” in a Vanille voice. Rather, it doesn’t imply anything of the sort.



That's all I could remember.

I don't know anything about the whole "cut off from the fade" thing in regards to Audancity.  From what I understood, Audacity,was basically sealed within a box and the Eluvian presented a backdoor out of it's prison.  Being a demon of pride, it was easy for it to manipulate Merrill into doing what it wanted her to do since she's rather arrogant.  Now that said, I never got the impression that she was going off to free the demon on sundermount during her Act 3 quest, I just figure that there's always a risk of possession invovlved when you're communicating with a powerful demon.  Hence why she was so keen about having her friends with her should the worst happen.

IIRC (bear in mind I haven't played DAII for some time now), Merrill says that a great war happened and the demon was torn from the Veil, and her ancestors bound him to the statue since he had emerged through the Veil and he had been sundered from it.

Also, I think Marethari said she couldn't combat him in the Fade.

[TheJediSaint]

esper wrote...

I actually think it was manipulating Mathari and Merril pushing at their pride until one of them would go so far in proving the other wrong that they would take Auducity in.

Eh, maybe.  But it seems that this topic has become derailed since we're talking more about demony things than Merrill's romance.  So to get back on topic, I will say that Merrill was my favorite romance, particarly her rivarly path.  Partially becuase I liked the idea of Hawke trying to protect her from herself, but also because Merrill's cutest when she's angry.

[jlb524]

TheJediSaint wrote...

I don't know anything about the whole "cut off from the fade" thing in regards to Audancity.  From what I understood, Audacity,was basically sealed within a box and the Eluvian presented a backdoor out of it's prison.  Being a demon of pride, it was easy for it to manipulate Merrill into doing what it wanted her to do since she's rather arrogant.  Now that said, I never got the impression that she was going off to free the demon on sundermount during her Act 3 quest, I just figure that there's always a risk of possession invovlved when you're communicating with a powerful demon.  Hence why she was so keen about having her friends with her should the worst happen.

She definitely knew the demon would want to use her to get out of the statue but didn't want that to happen...she tells Anders as much if you take him.

I'm under the impression that the only way the demon is getting out of the statue is by being banished back to the Fade or by possessing a mage.  We know Morrigan activated an eluvian and stood in front of it for who knows how long chatting with the Warden but we didn't see any statue bound demons jumping out of it to gain their freedom.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, I think Marethari said she couldn't combat him in the Fade.

Yeah, she said if she banished Audacity to the Fade he'd be too powerful for her to defeat.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 août 2011 - 02:26 .

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, I think Marethari said she couldn't combat him in the Fade.

Yeah, she said if she banished Audacity to the Fade he'd be too powerful for her to defeat.

So he was sundered from the Fade. Yay!

Even if it was Audacity talking, that is probably something he wouldn't lie about since he would know if he was sundered from the Fade completely.

[Matt2222]

dragonflight288 wrote...

the rival path is not really hawke being mean its just trying to protect her from the danger of the mirror

Which is....what exactly? How exactly is the mirror dangerous? What made it dangerous in Origins was the darkspawn taint. Merrill cleansed it with blood magic. And because neither she or anyone else in the alienage becomes tainted over a decade, we know she succeeded, whereas the elves in Witch Hunt are infected.

As for Audacity? He/she's trapped in some statue that Merethari herself said he couldn't escape from. Merrill also took precautions to prevent audacity getting out in any case. She brought Hawke along to kill her should things go amiss.

Merrill already was taking all the precautions needed. Hawke, who has done no research into eluvians, knows nothing about Tamlen and potential Grey Warden beyond they got tainted, is not in a position to tell Merrill what is safe about it and what isn't.

Neither is Merethari because she absolutely refuses to acknowledge the danger has passed, and will not even touch the lore of eluvians because she's scared of the elven heritage regarding it.

dude she never fixed the mirror she tried to with blood magic that didnt work. Then with that crafting tool that was a fail too finally she was tried to confront the demon but we ended up killing it in a new path she never was able to fix the mirror so she finally throws it away or shatters it however you want to put it out of regret for even messing with the mirror in the first place

[Matt2222]

Matt2222 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

the rival path is not really hawke being mean its just trying to protect her from the danger of the mirror

Which is....what exactly? How exactly is the mirror dangerous? What made it dangerous in Origins was the darkspawn taint. Merrill cleansed it with blood magic. And because neither she or anyone else in the alienage becomes tainted over a decade, we know she succeeded, whereas the elves in Witch Hunt are infected.

As for Audacity? He/she's trapped in some statue that Merethari herself said he couldn't escape from. Merrill also took precautions to prevent audacity getting out in any case. She brought Hawke along to kill her should things go amiss.

Merrill already was taking all the precautions needed. Hawke, who has done no research into eluvians, knows nothing about Tamlen and potential Grey Warden beyond they got tainted, is not in a position to tell Merrill what is safe about it and what isn't.

Neither is Merethari because she absolutely refuses to acknowledge the danger has passed, and will not even touch the lore of eluvians because she's scared of the elven heritage regarding it.

dude she never fixed the mirror she tried to with blood magic that didnt work. Then with that crafting tool that was a fail too finally she was tried to confront the demon but we ended up killing it in a new path she never was able to fix the mirror so she finally throws it away or shatters it however you want to put it out of regret for even messing with the mirror in the first place

in other words the mirror was pretty much corrupted the whole game 

[TEWR]

Matt2222 wrote...

Matt2222 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

the rival path is not really hawke being mean its just trying to protect her from the danger of the mirror

Which is....what exactly? How exactly is the mirror dangerous? What made it dangerous in Origins was the darkspawn taint. Merrill cleansed it with blood magic. And because neither she or anyone else in the alienage becomes tainted over a decade, we know she succeeded, whereas the elves in Witch Hunt are infected.

As for Audacity? He/she's trapped in some statue that Merethari herself said he couldn't escape from. Merrill also took precautions to prevent audacity getting out in any case. She brought Hawke along to kill her should things go amiss.

Merrill already was taking all the precautions needed. Hawke, who has done no research into eluvians, knows nothing about Tamlen and potential Grey Warden beyond they got tainted, is not in a position to tell Merrill what is safe about it and what isn't.

Neither is Merethari because she absolutely refuses to acknowledge the danger has passed, and will not even touch the lore of eluvians because she's scared of the elven heritage regarding it.

dude she never fixed the mirror she tried to with blood magic that didnt work. Then with that crafting tool that was a fail too finally she was tried to confront the demon but we ended up killing it in a new path she never was able to fix the mirror so she finally throws it away or shatters it however you want to put it out of regret for even messing with the mirror in the first place

in other words the mirror was pretty much corrupted the whole game 

The mirror is cleansed. The fact that she used blood magic on it and doesn't become tainted in the 7 years we know her (or anyone else in the Alienage for that matter) is proof that it was no longer tainted when the other elves became tainted from the mirror.

At most, they were around those shards for 2 years. Merrill's been around her shard, which would've tainted the surroundings, for 7 years. Then, when it becomes a part of the whole mirror, if it was tainted it would've spread around to the rest of the glass and the taint would've been amplified because there's more of it there.

The mirror was cleansed and was no longer a threat to anyone.

The Arulin'holm managed to fix the mirror's cracks, which was one of the reasons why Merrill needed it. An Eluvian won't do its intended purpose if it's broken. The Dalish Elf Origin showed us that.

And I wouldn't blame Merrill at all for anything regarding Audacity. Plus you can encourage her to keep researching the mirror and she says that she'll keep trying to figure out a way to make it work.


edit: Also, blood magic kept Avernus alive and kept him from succumbing to the Calling for centuries, though it couldn't cure him (at least as far as we know) because it's constantly in his blood and flowing. Whereas the taint is restricted to a shard of glass, which isn't a living thing and can be cleansed easier.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[Matt2222]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Matt2222 wrote...

Matt2222 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

the rival path is not really hawke being mean its just trying to protect her from the danger of the mirror

Which is....what exactly? How exactly is the mirror dangerous? What made it dangerous in Origins was the darkspawn taint. Merrill cleansed it with blood magic. And because neither she or anyone else in the alienage becomes tainted over a decade, we know she succeeded, whereas the elves in Witch Hunt are infected.

As for Audacity? He/she's trapped in some statue that Merethari herself said he couldn't escape from. Merrill also took precautions to prevent audacity getting out in any case. She brought Hawke along to kill her should things go amiss.

Merrill already was taking all the precautions needed. Hawke, who has done no research into eluvians, knows nothing about Tamlen and potential Grey Warden beyond they got tainted, is not in a position to tell Merrill what is safe about it and what isn't.

Neither is Merethari because she absolutely refuses to acknowledge the danger has passed, and will not even touch the lore of eluvians because she's scared of the elven heritage regarding it.

dude she never fixed the mirror she tried to with blood magic that didnt work. Then with that crafting tool that was a fail too finally she was tried to confront the demon but we ended up killing it in a new path she never was able to fix the mirror so she finally throws it away or shatters it however you want to put it out of regret for even messing with the mirror in the first place

in other words the mirror was pretty much corrupted the whole game 

The mirror is cleansed. The fact that she used blood magic on it and doesn't become tainted in the 7 years we know her (or anyone else in the Alienage for that matter) is proof that it was no longer tainted when the other elves became tainted from the mirror.

At most, they were around those shards for 2 years. Merrill's been around her shard, which would've tainted the surroundings, for 7 years. Then, when it becomes a part of the whole mirror, if it was tainted it would've spread around to the rest of the glass and the taint would've been amplified because there's more of it there.

The mirror was cleansed and was no longer a threat to anyone.

The Arulin'holm managed to fix the mirror's cracks, which was one of the reasons why Merrill needed it. An Eluvian won't do its intended purpose if it's broken. The Dalish Elf Origin showed us that.

And I wouldn't blame Merrill at all for anything regarding Audacity. Plus you can encourage her to keep researching the mirror and she says that she'll keep trying to figure out a way to make it work.

good point....

[dragonflight288]

Personally...getting back on topic, I friendly romance Merrill for multiple reasons.

1. While love is selfish, it's also a bond of trust. You need to trust your partner and support them when they want to make decisions. I personally (and every hawke I've played) have all trusted Merrill in regards to the dangers of the Fade and demons. Every companion, save Justice, succumbs to the temptations of demons in Fenriel's dream so that situation isn't exactly fool-proof in saying she can't be trusted. I can understand that it would give reason for pause however.

I trust Merrill when it comes to the Eluvians because I see far more potential good for the Dalish coming out of this if she succeeds, than potential harm should she fail. If she succeeds, all the clans, at the most limited benefit, would be able to communicate with each other across long distances. In Act 3, the elves are saying that they finally got in touch with another clan and was now waiting for them to show up with new halla. Think how much faster that would have happened if they had working eluvians?

Add in a huge addition to elven culture. The elves have lost so much of their lost culture and religion that they are practically scraping the surface of their once great empire. The Eluvian, should they get it working as Morrigan got hers, may actually have great access to greater founts of knowledge. And should that fail, Merrill would have mastered an ancient elven technique for constructing powerful magical items. Ones that the Tevinter Mages themselves couldn't figure out.

Those results are exactly why the Dalish refuse to bow to the humans. It's why they became Dalish in the first place. It's not exactly Merrill's fault that ignorance and superstitious fear made the rest of her clan forget that.

And if she does fail and get possessed, she brought Hawke along as a just-in-case. Then one person dies, an ancient demon is destroyed and everyone goes about their day.

Supporting Merrill in this is part of the trust I see comes with love.

Also on trust....

Merethari made a deal with Merrill through an ancient elven custom. When Merrill fulfilled her end of the bargain by slaying the Varterral, Merethari STILL tries to back out of the deal by giving the tool to Hawke instead. How can I trust Merethari as an unbiased source of knowledge if she won't even respect her own traditions when it comes to Merrill, who still honors her heritage and deals made?

2. Another part of love is sacrifice. Merrill loved her people and sacrificed almost everything she ever had to pursue a dream to help her people. Hawke can sacrifice personal safety to help her. Hawke can sacrifice time and some dignity (Dalish are awfully self-righteous after all. In real life, I would feel a blow to my dignity from helping people who want me dead for being a Shemlen) in order to help her.

Merrill keeps the eluvian away from the estate when she moves in with Hawke because she felt it would be too dangerous in Hightown. I personally can see why, based on how people view elves and magic in general. That alone would be dangerous if they knew she was working on a powerful magical artifact. Her being Hawke's lover and not a servant caused enough of a scandal by itself.

Just a few of the reasons I friendly-romance Merrill.

[Matt2222]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Personally...getting back on topic, I friendly romance Merrill for multiple reasons.

1. While love is selfish, it's also a bond of trust. You need to trust your partner and support them when they want to make decisions. I personally (and every hawke I've played) have all trusted Merrill in regards to the dangers of the Fade and demons. Every companion, save Justice, succumbs to the temptations of demons in Fenriel's dream so that situation isn't exactly fool-proof in saying she can't be trusted. I can understand that it would give reason for pause however.

I trust Merrill when it comes to the Eluvians because I see far more potential good for the Dalish coming out of this if she succeeds, than potential harm should she fail. If she succeeds, all the clans, at the most limited benefit, would be able to communicate with each other across long distances. In Act 3, the elves are saying that they finally got in touch with another clan and was now waiting for them to show up with new halla. Think how much faster that would have happened if they had working eluvians?

Add in a huge addition to elven culture. The elves have lost so much of their lost culture and religion that they are practically scraping the surface of their once great empire. The Eluvian, should they get it working as Morrigan got hers, may actually have great access to greater founts of knowledge. And should that fail, Merrill would have mastered an ancient elven technique for constructing powerful magical items. Ones that the Tevinter Mages themselves couldn't figure out.

Those results are exactly why the Dalish refuse to bow to the humans. It's why they became Dalish in the first place. It's not exactly Merrill's fault that ignorance and superstitious fear made the rest of her clan forget that.

And if she does fail and get possessed, she brought Hawke along as a just-in-case. Then one person dies, an ancient demon is destroyed and everyone goes about their day.

Supporting Merrill in this is part of the trust I see comes with love.

Also on trust....

Merethari made a deal with Merrill through an ancient elven custom. When Merrill fulfilled her end of the bargain by slaying the Varterral, Merethari STILL tries to back out of the deal by giving the tool to Hawke instead. How can I trust Merethari as an unbiased source of knowledge if she won't even respect her own traditions when it comes to Merrill, who still honors her heritage and deals made?

2. Another part of love is sacrifice. Merrill loved her people and sacrificed almost everything she ever had to pursue a dream to help her people. Hawke can sacrifice personal safety to help her. Hawke can sacrifice time and some dignity (Dalish are awfully self-righteous after all. In real life, I would feel a blow to my dignity from helping people who want me dead for being a Shemlen) in order to help her.

Merrill keeps the eluvian away from the estate when she moves in with Hawke because she felt it would be too dangerous in Hightown. I personally can see why, based on how people view elves and magic in general. That alone would be dangerous if they knew she was working on a powerful magical artifact. Her being Hawke's lover and not a servant caused enough of a scandal by itself.

Just a few of the reasons I friendly-romance Merrill.

well well well there is a brain behind that computer....an impressive opinion and addition to the argument but i honestly agree with what ur saying i personally like the friendship path as well but the rival path is a bit more "hey blood magic no that wrong in the long run it will come back and bite u in the ass stupid im doing this because i care for u and dont wanna see you get hurt" if that makes any sense

[dragonflight288]

well well well there is a brain behind that computer....an impressive
opinion and addition to the argument but i honestly agree with what ur
saying i personally like the friendship path as well but the rival path
is a bit more "hey blood magic no that wrong in the long run it will
come back and bite u in the ass stupid im doing this because i care for u
and dont wanna see you get hurt" if that makes any sense

Thanks for the compliment. And yes, I think that does make sense. I've never played through  the rival path. Never had the heart to rival her.

Love is also about standing up and telling your partner when they're wrong and doing something self-destructive, after all. Good friends and spouses don't really let their spouse/friends go out and smoke cocaine or marajuana after all...I think. Sometimes good friends need to put their foot down.

....well I just came up with a counter for my own argument. crap.

[Matt2222]

dragonflight288 wrote...

well well well there is a brain behind that computer....an impressive
opinion and addition to the argument but i honestly agree with what ur
saying i personally like the friendship path as well but the rival path
is a bit more "hey blood magic no that wrong in the long run it will
come back and bite u in the ass stupid im doing this because i care for u
and dont wanna see you get hurt" if that makes any sense

Thanks for the compliment. And yes, I think that does make sense. I've never played through  the rival path. Never had the heart to rival her.

Love is also about standing up and telling your partner when they're wrong and doing something self-destructive, after all. Good friends and spouses don't really let their spouse/friends go out and smoke cocaine or marajuana after all...I think. Sometimes good friends need to put their foot down.

....well I just came up with a counter for my own argument. crap.

haha happens to the best of us but u should try the rival path its not as bad as you think 

[TheJediSaint]

There seems to be this notion rivalry with Merrill is about being mean to her which isn't really true. You can max out your rivalry with her by simply disagreeing with her, rather than making a deliberate effort to be disagreeable with her. In terms of romance, Merrill's Friendships path is about Hawke proving to be someone she can trust. Rivalry on the other hand, is about Hawke being someone who looks out for Merrill's best interest, even if she doesn't want that.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[Ryzaki]

...Where is this rivalry= Hawke being a meanie head attitude from?

It makes me wonder if people saying that have even played the rivalrymance.

[FieryDove]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Where is this rivalry= Hawke being a meanie head attitude from?

It makes me wonder if people saying that have even played the rivalrymance.

They haven't.


also...

The mirror is ebil it must be shattered.

[dragonflight288]

They haven't.


also...

The mirror is ebil it must be shattered.

I have seen no evidence that suggests the mirror is evil. No in-game evidence that is. Everything about it is pure speculation.

[TheJediSaint]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They haven't.


also...

The mirror is ebil it must be shattered.

I have seen no evidence that suggests the mirror is evil. No in-game evidence that is. Everything about it is pure speculation.

I dont know about evil, but it is certainly dangerous.  If you dont believe me, play throught the dailish elf origin. 

[Matt2222]

TheJediSaint wrote...

There seems to be this notion rivalry with Merrill is about being mean to her which isn't really true. You can max out your rivalry with her by simply disagreeing with her, rather than making a deliberate effort to be disagreeable with her. In terms of romance, Merrill's Friendships path is about Hawke proving to be someone she can trust. Rivalry on the other hand, is about Hawke being someone who looks out for Merrill's best interest, even if she doesn't want that.

right.... pretty much what i said but in your own words.......

[TEWR]

TheJediSaint wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

They haven't.


also...

The mirror is ebil it must be shattered.

I have seen no evidence that suggests the mirror is evil. No in-game evidence that is. Everything about it is pure speculation.

I dont know about evil, but it is certainly dangerous.  If you dont believe me, play throught the dailish elf origin. 

Wrong. See my post above regarding how the shard that Merrill took was cleansed of the taint.


edit: "cleansed of the Eluvian"?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Cleansed of the taint or not, being an ancient powerful artifact it certainly could still be dangerous just trying to get it working again blindly not knowing what to expect when it starts working.

The same could be said for all of what the Dalish do.

"Oh a Varterral! He certainly looks pissed but let's go in and give him a big ol' hug!"

"OM NOM NOM NOM NOM"

[TheJediSaint]

It also wasn't exactly clear if Merrill actually succeeded in cleansing the taint from the mirror, but I echo Filament's point that the mirror would likely still be dangerous regardless. The Palantir from Lord Of The Rings, for example, wasn't explicitly evil, but it was still very dangerous because you had no way of knowing what was on the other side.

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wrong. See my post above regarding how the shard that Merrill took was cleansed of the taint.
edit: "cleansed of the Eluvian"?

It is EBIL!

One day you will see the truth of it.

As to the OP I agree Rival is best in this case.

[TEWR]

TheJediSaint wrote...

It also wasn't exactly clear if Merrill actually succeeded in cleansing the taint from the mirror, but I echo Filament's point that the mirror would likely still be dangerous regardless. The Palantir from Lord Of The Rings, for example, wasn't explicitly evil, but it was still very dangerous because you had no way of knowing what was on the other side.

but we DO know what's on the other side. Something that's obviously safe enough for Morrigan to send an untrained 2 year old child and for her to go herself. Possibly with the Warden. She knows what's on the other side, and wouldn't go somewhere that's incredibly dangerous.

[TheJediSaint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

but we DO know what's on the other side. Something that's obviously safe enough for Morrigan to send an untrained 2 year old child and for her to go herself. Possibly with the Warden. She knows what's on the other side, and wouldn't go somewhere that's incredibly dangerous.

Three points I want to make in regards to that.

First, youre assuming that Merrill's mirror leads to the same place as Morrigan's does.

Second, Morrigan had access to knowledge (Flemeth's Grimore) Merrill didnt.

Thrid, it is explicitly said that Morrigan's mirror was never tainted or damaged, unlike the mirror that Merrill was working on.