EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Apparently it is emotional manipulation to tell someone you love, that what they are doing is dangerous.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
By that logic, Anders isn't a typical abomination either. Or Wynne. Or the Baroness. Or Connor.
Granted, Wynne and maybe Anders need a new name because "abomination" has a very negative connotation, as it implies they're meatball flesh sack wearing drunkards.
There's also the fact that the clan hates the Eluvians just as much as she does, so any research she did into them would have to be done by herself and in secret, which might be hard for her to do.
and the elven agreement was between Merrill and Marethari. They are the only two people there who know anything about it. Making a deal with Hawke, who knows nothing about elven ways, makes no sense.
Merrill is the primary person there making the agreement with Hawke and company as little more than witnesses.
Meanieheads often don't realize that they are meanieheads.Ryzaki wrote...
...Where is this rivalry= Hawke being a meanie head attitude from?
It makes me wonder if people saying that have even played the rivalrymance.
FieryDove wrote...
Well maybe you play diplomatic all the time. My Hawke's have been trolling everyone and my last two asked the Keeper to explain things plainly which she did and she looked straight at Hawke asking him/her to kill the bug and then Hawke would be rewarded with the tool. When someone looks you in the eye and they say these things you tend to think that is who they are speaking to. But whatever.
Guest_Puddi III_*
She first met Audacity before she met Wryme... and her meeting with Wryme doesn't really help her "super good at resisting demons" credibility. At all. Yeah, she would have known... because people never ever make a mistake, swear never to do it again, and then do it again. There is no basis to assume it did not or wouldn't have continued to get the better of her.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Filament wrote...
Who's to say Audacity couldn't have done the very same with Merrill's pride? "Those other mages are sloppy and get possessed, but I know the risks, I can handle it."
Remember Wryme? He did the same thing to her and she knew something was wrong, but she was forced to believe it like Wryme was tugging at her heart.
She would've known if Audacity was doing something similar.
Considering what little we know about the Eluvian, I don't think there's much of a counterpoint to be made aside from counter-speculation. Regardless this is just one way among many others that he might have tricked her.I had a counterpoint to this, but I forgot what it was because I'm really tired =/
This is all really irrelevant because I (or you) don't know how careful Morrigan was being, though I find it likely she's a lot more wise than Merrill in this regard. But I do feel Merrill was eschewing caution to a great extent, to a much greater extent than would allow your "all knowledge is equally dangerous to study" claim to be valid. If she was so careful in studying one of her primary sources of information wouldn't have been "a demon." Blindfolding oneself to this risk I think is a bit naive and does less of a service to Merrill as a 'friend' (well, rival according to the system) than pointing it out.Or does it?
Anyway, my point is that Morrigan has so many things to do in a very short amount of time, and given how Witch Hunt doesn't go into depth about her hunt for the Eluvians, it's possible she was rushing through it more than Merrill was.
Merrill probably carefully studied each piece of lore for who knows how long to make sure she was understanding it correctly and extrapolating the right things. I've had similar things happen.
jlb524 wrote...
It doesn't matter...the nature of the agreement is that the tool belongs to all the Dalish in the clan and will be given to the one that invokes the ritual and completes a deed. Merrill is the Dalish clan member who invoked the ritual...it's rightfully hers upon completion of the task.
FieryDove wrote...
At the time of this quest she had not been a clan member for years and they won't take her back
FieryDove wrote...
I must leave thread...I don't want to get it locked for OTness.
Filament wrote...
This is all really irrelevant because I (or you) don't know how careful Morrigan was being, though I find it likely she's a lot more wise than Merrill in this regard.
Filament wrote...
But I do feel Merrill was eschewing caution to a great extent, to a much greater extent than would allow your "all knowledge is equally dangerous to study" claim to be valid. If she was so careful in studying one of her primary sources of information wouldn't have been "a demon." Blindfolding oneself to this risk I think is a bit naive and does less of a service to Merrill as a 'friend' (well, rival according to the system) than pointing it out.
Modifié par jlb524, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .
Filament wrote...
She first met Audacity before she met Wryme... and her meeting with Wryme doesn't really help her "super good at resisting demons" credibility. At all. Yeah, she would have known... because people never ever make a mistake, swear never to do it again, and then do it again. There is no basis to assume it did not or wouldn't have continued to get the better of her.
Filament wrote...
Considering what little we know about the Eluvian, I don't think there's much of a counterpoint to be made aside from counter-speculation. Regardless this is just one way among many others that he might have tricked her.
Filament wrote...
This is all really irrelevant because I (or you) don't know how careful Morrigan was being, though I find it likely she's a lot more wise than Merrill in this regard. But I do feel Merrill was eschewing caution to a great extent, to a much greater extent than would allow your "all knowledge is equally dangerous to study" claim to be valid. If she was so careful in studying one of her primary sources of information wouldn't have been "a demon." Blindfolding oneself to this risk I think is a bit naive and does less of a service to Merrill as a 'friend' (well, rival according to the system) than pointing it out.
Filament wrote...
To say pointing it out on the rivalry path is emotional abuse, no, just because you don't support someone's self destructive behavior doesn't make it abuse. There's a difference between not censoring your own opinions about someone's behavior while trying to help (evident by rival Hawke still going along with her to meet the demon in Act III), and going out of your way to belittle someone when you don't really care about helping at all, you only want to be right. I consider rival Hawke to be the former, and I see that as better than him censoring himself even if he really does feel differently just for the sake of supporting her.
Guest_Puddi III_*
Well, I doubt it and disagree with your disagreement.jlb524 wrote...
For all we know Morrigan could have consulted a demon as well. I also disagree about Morrigan being more wise.
..Yes? It's a demon. A very powerful pride demon, at that. (and not the only one she succumbed to)Merrill spent the vast majority of those seven years studying other sources besides the demon. Before the last trip to Sundermount, Merrill went to the demon once to gain knowledge from it (blood magic). It's like you're saying because she used the demon once (and eventually wanted to go for a second time) that her entire project is careless.
Considering the minute amount of Dalish lore thats present in Thedas in current times, I'm sure Merrill exhausted all other sources of knowledge before finally getting desperate enough to go back to the demon.
Guest_Puddi III_*
It happened. At least the other character have the excuse of not being instructed on how to resist the call of demons, since it's not something they're supposed to have to worry about.LobselVith8 wrote...
Are you talking about Feynriel's quest in the Fade? You mean the quest that railroads characters into comitting murder in the span of a few seconds? I never take "Night Terrors" seriously because of that.
And how much of that lore came from Audacity? How much might he have filled in the blanks and told her what she wanted to hear and wrapped her around his finger like Wryme did?Gaider addressed Merrill studied lore about the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard she took in Ferelden. Merrill seems to be the most informed about the Eluvian in Dragon Age 2.
Naive enough to trust a demon as a source of information and get tricked into betraying her friend by another demon.Merrill isn't naive about magic - she is informed enough to tell what type of demon the Profane Abomination is, she is able to tell whether Keran is possessed or not, she is using magic and blood magic for several years without incident, and she is careful enough to request Hawke to kill her if something goes wrong (which is more than Marethari does in letting a demon loose without warning anyone until it's too late).
I don't think studying the Eluvian is a dangerous goal in itself. I think the way she's doing it is dangerous. Clearly.I don't view Merrill trying to help her people as self-destructive, especially when the technology can possibly improve and irreovcably change the lives of the elves across Thedas forever. While there are risks, the same is true for the expedition into the Deep Roads, and Hawke has no problem getting assistance from others so his family can benefit from it. Merrill is being proactive in trying to help the People, which is something I wish the reactive and passive Hawke would have emulated.
Filament wrote...
Well, I doubt it and disagree with your disagreement.
Filament wrote...
..Yes? It's a demon. A very powerful pride demon, at that. (and not the only one she succumbed to)
If she did really spend all those years studying other sources (I doubt she had any, I'd think a better way would be to seek out the other Dalish clans to see if they have any lore... not sit in Kirkwall for 10 years), none of that got any results. Only going to the demon got "results." Which I suspect were results twisted in the demon's favor. But regardless, even if they weren't, yes it would have been safer to continue to seek out other routes, or not try at all if the only route available was from the knowledge of such a creature.
Guest_Puddi III_*
Your surety is hardly any more credible than my doubt here. And if you were right that still wouldn't change the crux of my point (why I just added it in parentheses)... even if she did exhaust every resource, ultimately she had to rely on a demon... and chose to do so. Yes, that's reckless.jlb524 wrote...
I think Gaider said she did seek out knowledge to help her rebuild the eluvian from scratch (and we don't know what happened during time gaps). The 'results' don't matter as we are debating Merrill's approach not what worked and didn't worked. I'm sure Merrill knew that the demon was the easiest route to take but still spent the vast majority of time studying the thing without its aid and decided to seek it out for the second time out of desperation.
You 'doubt' this too b/c it doesn't fit your view of Merrill as a careless/reckless I suppose.
But you can't then turn around and say she's beyond criticism for doing what you just said is a big risk, both to her and her companions seeing as how her precaution is to bring Hawke along.I think that the only realistic way to gain the most knowledge about ancient elven artifacts such as these is from a Fade spirit since the majority of written elven knowledge was destroyed. There's still some stuff available but it probably won't give you the full picture. Is it dangerous to seek knowledge from spirits? Yes. Is it impossible to successfully gain some knowledge from them without turning into an abomination or having other horrible things happen? No. The question is, is it worth the risk? Merrill thinks it is for the sake of her people. I can't see how you can say she's careless though since she's aware of the risks involved and takes precautions.
Filament wrote...
Your surety is hardly any more credible than my doubt here. And if you were right that still wouldn't change the crux of my point (why I just added it in parentheses)... even if she did exhaust every resource, ultimately she had to rely on a demon... and chose to do so. Yes, that's reckless.
Filament wrote...
But you can't then turn around and say she's beyond criticism for doing what you just said is a big risk, both to her and her companions seeing as how her precaution is to bring Hawke along.
Modifié par jlb524, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .
Guest_Puddi III_*
jlb524 wrote...
So I think the question of 'friend or rival' should come down to: "Do you agree with Merrill that the risk is worth it or not?" A 'friend' says, 'yes' and agrees to support her and help her lower the risks involved. Friend!Hawke isn't necessarily blind to the risks but thinks it's a worthwhile/noble goal. A 'rival' doesn't agree it's worth it, possibly thinking Merrill should focus on the here and now and not the past (especially considering that those closest to her, her own clan, won't appreciate it).
I feel this takes the focus/value judgement off of Merrill and her behavior and places it on the end goal.
jlb524 wrote...
So I think the question of 'friend or rival' should come down to: "Do you agree with Merrill that the risk is worth it or not?" A 'friend' says, 'yes' and agrees to support her and help her lower the risks involved.
Merrill killed her and Mahariel's family thats why he would be pisseddragonflight288 wrote...
But what will Mahariel be pissed about? I think that depends on how the Warden is played by the player. Were I playing a Dalish, Mahariel would be upset with her clan for opposing Merrill's idea, which was actually doing what the Dalish claim to do.
but u do make a valid pointMatt2222 wrote...
Merrill killed her and Mahariel's family thats why he would be pisseddragonflight288 wrote...
But what will Mahariel be pissed about? I think that depends on how the Warden is played by the player. Were I playing a Dalish, Mahariel would be upset with her clan for opposing Merrill's idea, which was actually doing what the Dalish claim to do.
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