213 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

This is not a Paragon/Renegade issue or a Council/Humanity issue.

This is a Cerberus loyalty issue.

In light of what we know -- that Cerberus will oppose Shep's plans whatever happens -- then the only way for Cerberus devotees to play ME3 will be to get Shep killed early and not resume.

As far as I'm concerned the real Cerberus and TIM are trapped in another dimension and these are just posers conjured up by the evil wizard Mac Walters.

:crying:And you have to kill TIM

:lol:buahahahahahahaha:bandit:

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

This is not a Paragon/Renegade issue or a Council/Humanity issue.

This is a Cerberus loyalty issue.

In light of what we know -- that Cerberus will oppose Shep's plans whatever happens -- then the only way for Cerberus devotees to play ME3 will be to get Shep killed early and not resume.

As far as I'm concerned the real Cerberus and TIM are trapped in another dimension and these are just posers conjured up by the evil wizard Mac Walters.

:crying:And you have to kill TIM

:lol:buahahahahahahaha:bandit:

That's a reptilian in a human costume not TIM.

[Thompson family]

GodWood wrote...

That's why I don't want the reason for me fighting them to be something as silly as "they attacked Liara".

I respect that. I will point out, however, that if TIM gets his hands on the SB network, his chances of killing Shep will go up exponentially because the best intelligence net in the galaxy will help him find the target.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[marshalleck]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Domination? Heh. 
Every species wants dominance. Might as well be my own. 

That makes it right?

You say this as though there is an objective standard to which everyone agrees to adhere. 

"Right" in the context of this discussion is meaningless. 

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

That's some interesting thinking you got there. Wouldn't it be better if we went for a more equal representation style government, like the Council (not that it's perfect)?

With all the attendant bureaucracy and inaction? No, not really. 

If you ask me, that sounds better than "LOLZ HUMANZ EEZ ON TOP BECAUSE WE IS SPESHAL!"

All that would do is cause humans nothing but trouble.

All what would do? I don't want humanity making decisions for aliens. To each his own. 

[xXljoshlXx]

marshalleck wrote...
You say this as though there is an objective standard to which everyone agrees to adhere. 

"Right" in the context of this discussion is meaningless. 

Point taken

Modifié par xXljoshlXx, 19 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Yeah that's a much better plan.

Have the volus, elcor, hanar and other 'lesser' species oppressed by the Council and not let them have a say in galaxy politics.
Have the Council continue to exploit the 'lesser' races for their own interests
Have species like the quarians still subject to extreme racism and be prevented from settling a planet because of the actions their ancestors did 300 years ago.
AND murder billions of innocent people.

Great idea.

Oh, because the "perfect" humans will make things so much better when they can't even control their own race.

Nor can any other race.

I'm not seeing your point though.
I was advocating the support of a human hegemony because what we've got is already oppressive so it might as well support our interests

ORRRR [there was a second option remember]

Organize a revolution in favour of pure racial equality.

You just came along suggesting we just wipe out  all humans without giving any decent reasoning as to why

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

DOMINANCE FOR THE NAKED APES!

seriously though,these thread are getting annoying.

[Thompson family]

TheOptimist wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I don't know why paragons keep supporting the alien council.
It's just as oppressive and you know it.

Being a perennial Paragon player, I know no such thing.  I DO know that they are what will allow me to get the whole galaxy pushing together, rather than trying to tear each other down in the face of a greater threat.  The Council and the Citadel have their flaws, but they still represent the best hope for living together and more or less getting along with each other the galaxy has.

Agreed, with a little elaboration:

I don't give a rip for the Council. and all three of my main Sheps are paragon saints.

What I care about are the Humans, the Asari, the Turians and the Salarians -- who happen to be on the Council. I want their fleets, their assets and the cooperation. Same goes for anybody else -- non-Council species -- who can help.

Yes, that includes the Rachni and the Geth. And the Batarians. And the Yahg.

Anyone who will fight the Reapers and help him/her take back the Earth is my Shep's ally. Anyone who collaborates with them is his/her foe. Anyone who tries to stop my Shep collaborates with the Reapers, and is therefore my enemy.

[GodWood]

Thompson family wrote...

GodWood wrote...
That's why I don't want the reason for me fighting them to be something as silly as "they attacked Liara".

I respect that.

Thanks.

I will point out, however, that if TIM gets his hands on the SB network, his chances of killing Shep will go up exponentially because the best intelligence net in the galaxy will help him find the target.

But why would TIM want/need to kill Shep?

So long as he's reasonably in favour of TIM's goals he's a valuable resource that he [TIM] can continue to utilize.

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

That's some interesting thinking you got there. Wouldn't it be better if we went for a more equal representation style government, like the Council (not that it's perfect)?

With all the attendant bureaucracy and inaction? No, not really. 

If you ask me, that sounds better than "LOLZ HUMANZ EEZ ON TOP BECAUSE WE IS SPESHAL!"

All that would do is cause humans nothing but trouble.

All what would do? I don't want humanity making decisions for aliens. To each his own. 

Human dominance. Dominance of any kind has always failed.

Why don't you tell me exactly what you think "dominance" is.

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...
Nor can any other race.

I'm not seeing your point though.
I was advocating the support of a human hegemony because what we've got is already oppressive so it might as well support our interests

ORRRR [there was a second option remember]

Organize a revolution in favour of pure racial equality.

You just came along suggesting we just wipe out all humans without giving any decent reasoning as to why

That would probably more than likely start unnecessary conflicts between races as they have constant power struggles that could very well lead to more splinter factions or in worst case war, and try to be better than others, because, as many just love to point out, dominance is apparently the goal of all the races.

As for the wiping out part, I just don't like humanity, because I'm not given any reason whatsoever to care about them beyond belonging to the same race, which is frankly why I find myself to alienate more and more from the humanity in Mass Effect, because they act very little like real humans do.

[James2912]

Thompson family wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Stupid idea.

If TIM wants Liara he can have her.

And similar replies:

All right.

TIM wants the Shadow Broker network. Even if you don't care about Liara, you want to let him have that?

-- and the Collector Base.

My renegade  is TIMs biatch try again.

But seriousl y your theory sounds plausible. And it explains why Bioware forces us to be buddies with Liara whether we want to or not in LOTSB. But really its kind of annoying that we can't choose whether we are friends or foes of cerberus. I don't really have a problem with TIM. 

[James2912]

 All  groups/individuals goals are to survive. For some survival equals dominance. For some survival simply means carving their piece of the pie and  defending it from the bigger kids others want the whole effing pie! 

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

"The influence or control over ecological communities."

Influence and control are two radically different concepts. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 03:04 .

[Thompson family]

laecraft wrote...

TIM throwing all his resources at Shepard because he's after LIARA?

Can't blame you for not reading this whole long thread. TIM's throwing resorces to foil Shep's plan. That much we know from Cerberus trying to kill the Krogan princess, for instance.

Somehow, this hypothesis is even more offensive than the one where TIM is after Shepard because Shepard's a liability, because TIM hates him, because Shepard knows too much, or because TIM wants his ship back.

I won't argue there, but see the next point.

Besides, I need my ship to fight the Reapers. I don't need Liara to fight the Reapers.

I wouldn't be sure at all about that.

Remember in LotSB, aftet the boss battle, that Liara finds extensive data on the Reapers and says so, saying that the Shadow Broker knew about the Reapers and wanted to cheat fate and save himself.

Remember, also, that Casey Hudson et. al. have told us that we don't know how we're going to beat the Reapers and will have to figure out a way. We won't even have all the clues at the start.

It would not surprise me one bit if LIara is the key, or finds the key, to beating the Reapers. Shep never would have even known what Ilos was, much less where it was, were it not for Liara. -- and that's when she was just a nerdy little history nut.

So if TIM wants to kill her, and not just for the SB network -- well, as Mordin would say, "Implications unpleasant."

EDITED IN: UNLESS all that info on the Reapers is exactly what TIM's after, and he doesn't want to share it. That would be something Shep would fight to get whether he/she gave a rip about Liara T'Soni or not.

So, really, I don't see a problem here. I'm here to save the galaxy, not guard individuals or protect their personal agendas. The time for that has passed. Whatever debt I might have owed Liara has been paid in full. She didn't hesitate to use Shepard for her own agenda, so we're even now.

I think I've addressed most of this point in previous posts. However, let me repeat again that denying TIM the SB network would be a worthwhile goal even if LIara wasn't any help in stopping the Reapers.

It would be irresponsible to endanger the mission like that. If giving up Liara would remove 40 percent of my enemies, well, I'm sorry, Liara, but you're just one person, and trillions of lives are at stake.

Besides, she's not a Shadow Broker anymore. She's merely a biotic now, part of Shepard's squad like a common fighter. She's not so valuable to the mission.

See previous points.

Of course, everything I said applies to TIM's reasoning, as well. It would be very strange for him to suddenly focus on Liara and completely disregard much more immediate threat -

THE REAPERS!

Whether we think it's the reason for Cerberus becoming an enemy or not, Shep and Cerberus are clearly going to be on opposite sides whatever Shep does. And Liara will be on Shep's side. Perhaps they have opposing views on the best strategy to stop the Reapers, but it's clearly an irreconciliable conflict.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[Thompson family]

GodWood wrote...
But why would TIM want/need to kill Shep?

So long as he's reasonably in favour of TIM's goals he's a valuable resource that he [TIM] can continue to utilize.

GoodWood, that's something you, me and everybody else here would give a half-pint of blood each to know.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

"The influence or control over ecological communities."

Influence and control are two radically different concepts. 

I trust the dictionary's definition.

That doesn't even make sense. Can you not tell the difference between influencing someone and controlling them? I'm asking for your thoughts here, not a dictionary definition. A synthesis of knowledge and applicability as it pertains to the species in Mass Effect.

My preference for human dominance in Mass Effect would take the form of a passive influence through a combination of cultural, technological, and political prowess to varying degrees. Aggressive military dominance is the most base and unenlightened form and the most likely to meet resistance. 

If I may apply an analogy by comparing one video game to another, humanity in Mass Effect should aim for a 'cultural victory' ala the Civilization series.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@Marsh the aggressive kind is what TIM wants,and you advocate it,ergo you support aggresive military dominance.

:wizard:yay double standards!

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 19 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[marshalleck]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@Marsh the aggressive kind is what TIM wants,and you advocate it,ergo you support aggresive military dominance.

Wrong on all counts. Military use of force is a means to an end, not the end itself. If TIM only wanted military dominance he wouldn't have operatives in political, industrial, and technological fields. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 03:11 .