213 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

And that won't work either.

Care to elaborate?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Hopefully they portray Cerberus as more then some mickey mouse organization.

Fanatics on either side of them just sound like complete idiots when they are brought up.

[Thompson family]

This got buried in a reply of mine to Laecraft, and I humbly think it's worth repeating (and editing into the OP):

Many forum members say that Liara's just not enough of a reason. OK. How about this variation on the theme --

Remember that in LotSB, after the boss battle, Liara finds extensive data on the Protheans and proof that the Reapers exist and says so, and that the Shadow Broker knew about the Reapers and wanted to figure out a way to escape the oncoming doom.

Remember, also, that Casey Hudson et. al. have told us that we don't know how we're going to beat the Reapers and will have to figure out a way. We won't even have all the clues at the start.

It would not surprise me one bit if LIara is the key, or the one who can find the key, to beating the Reapers. Shep never would have even known what Ilos was in ME1, much less where it was, were it not for Liara. -- and that's when she was just a nerdy little history nut.

So if TIM wants to kill her, and not just for the SB network -- well, as Mordin would say, "Implications unpleasant."

-- OR --

All that info on the Reapers is what TIM's really after, especially after the invasion starts, and he doesn't want to share it. THAT would be something Shep would fight to get whether he/she gives a rip about Liara T'Soni or not.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[Nightdragon8]

TIM is trying to pull a Xanatos Gambit for humanity survival/supremacy

Cerb joins Reapers
- Shep lives/wins, Human supremacy
- Shep dies to Cerb, causes a rally behind now a mertyr, destroys Cerb/Reapers, Human supremacy
- Shep dies/everyone looses, Humanty lives on as a Reaper/Collector replacements. Humanity survives.

(that is if Cerb doesn't have a few hidden bases where they can take refugee as the reapers come and go. To repopulate the galaxy. Thus this Humanity solo survivor.

[jbblue05]

Why would TIM attack Liara, she works for Cerberus

[marshalleck]

Thompson family wrote...

It would not surprise me one bit if LIara is the key, or the one who can find the key, to beating the Reapers. Shep never would have even known what Ilos was in ME1, much less where it was, were it not for Liara. -- and that's when she was just a nerdy little history nut.

well she's already the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Might as well take it all the way and make her key to saving the galaxy. 

I'm not being hyperbolic at all when I say if this is the course the writers were to take ME3, I would never again purchase a Bioware game. The thought that they'd resort to such trite contrivances is utterly revolting to me.

[Thompson family]

jbblue05 wrote...

Why would TIM attack Liara, she works for Cerberus

She cooperated with Cerberus to get Shep's body before the Collectors, but that relationship ended long ago. Cerberus forwarded information to Liara that contained clues about the SB's whereabouts and told her Feron was still alive, triggering Lair of the Shadow Broker

Speculation on my part: The only reason Cerberus did that was so T'Soni could combine that with her information, which she had no intention of ever giving them, so she could kill the SB,or locate the SB base and lead Cerberus to it, or both.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 03:55 .

[JGDD]

jbblue05 wrote...

Why would TIM attack Liara, she works for Cerberus

Not really. She used their resources as much as they used her. It was mutually beneficial to both at the time.

[Massadonious1]

As much as I despise the overall idea of Cerberus, I would rather take indoctrination as a plot device.

I like Liara, but that's just too much plot significance for one character.

[Thompson family]

marshalleck wrote...

well she's already the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Might as well take it all the way and make her key to saving the galaxy.

You clearly have strong feelings about this, marshalleck. I can't argue with that.

I'm not being hyperbolic at all when I say if this is the course the writers were to take ME3, I would never again purchase a Bioware game. The thought that they'd resort to such trite contrivances is utterly revolting to me.

SOMEBODY'S got to figure out the Reapers' weakness. I don't see T'Soni as any less acceptable contrivance as anybody else, even TIM.

Massadonious1 wrote...

As much as I despise the overall idea of Cerberus, I would rather take indoctrination as a plot device.

I like Liara, but that's just too much plot significance for one character.

See previous point.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 04:12 .

[marshalleck]

Thompson family wrote...
*snip*

Snipping the quote because I find this forum software's quote feature entirely unreasonable and unsuitable and I'm no longer willing to fight with it.

To respond to your points: yes, I agree that Liara has already received too much plot significance and her plot armor is much to resilient. She needs to lose it in ME3, not gain even more, if there is to be any hope that I will ever be able to respect Liara's character as part of the overall narrative. As is, she's simply writers' pet. Playable or not doesn't factor into it in any way. The very term "Mary Sue" derives from a Star Trek fan fic, after all. So obviously there's no "must be playable" condition that needs to be satisfied. 

Somebody does need to find a solution to the Reaper problem. My hope is that the solution will be an amalgam of conditions set in the Mass Effect world by the player, i.e. that when abstracted and combined, it is the sum of your decisions spanning the entire trilogy that will determine how Shepard wins the galactic war. I will admit that this is a megalithic expectation, and that I am almost assuredly setting myself up for disappointment. I'm already doing my best to temper my expectations in this regard. I will admit I have *no idea* how Shepard is going to win, and this is largely a result of almost NO exposition taking place in ME2 when ideally, the interim chapter should have explored the Reaper threat much more deeply. I feel that as a result of this, whatever solution is presented in ME3 will very much qualify as a deus ex machina. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 août 2011 - 04:14 .

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

It would not surprise me one bit if LIara is the key, or the one who can find the key, to beating the Reapers. Shep never would have even known what Ilos was in ME1, much less where it was, were it not for Liara. -- and that's when she was just a nerdy little history nut.

well she's already the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Might as well take it all the way and make her key to saving the galaxy. 

I'm not being hyperbolic at all when I say if this is the course the writers were to take ME3, I would never again purchase a Bioware game. The thought that they'd resort to such trite contrivances is utterly revolting to me.

Liara's the biggest blight in the ME games. They make us go through all that trouble of capturing the Shadow Broker's ship and replacing him only to force her upon us again again as a squadmate so she can get center stage in ME3. She's like a damn scratch that won't go away.

She'll be the death of my Shepard I just know it.

Modifié par Seboist, 19 août 2011 - 04:14 .

[jbblue05]

Thompson family wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Why would TIM attack Liara, she works for Cerberus

She cooperated with Cerberus to get Shep's body before the Collectors, but that relationship ended long ago. Cerberus forwarded information to Liara that contained clues about the SB's whereabouts and told her Feron was still alive, triggering Lair of the Shadow Broker

Speculation on my part: The only reason Cerberus did that was so T'Soni could combine that with her information, which she had no intention of ever giving them, so she could kill the SB,or locate the SB base and lead Cerberus to it, or both.

Are you sure it ended or are you just hoping their is evidence in the game points to them working together.

Liara  gets hired to find Shepard's body

Liara hands evidence she got from Feron over to Cerberus

Cerberus setted-up Liara on Illium. Liara was very reclusive and all of sudden amassed a powerful information network=]

TSB and Nyseris could've easily killed Liara and ended her threatbut they did not because they knew Liara was working for someone more powerful and wanted to spy on Cerberus.

Do you find it odd Cerberus knew Liara was after TSB and they were nice enough to help Liara.?

Bioware forces Shepard to trust Liara and TIM knows Shep and Liara are close friends and TIM's a schemer he sent Liara and Shep after TSB so TIM comes out on top. TIM gains access to a powerul network and can manipulate Shepard to do his bidding.  

Plus Liara seems like she wants to tell Shepard so much more but she has to hold back IMO

[Thompson family]

marshalleck wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
*snip*

Snipping the quote because I find this forum software's quote feature entirely unreasonable and unsuitable and I'm no longer willing to fight with it.

Clearly even I thought much of that wasn't worth quoting because I edited much out while you were composing youre reply.

To respond to your points: yes, I agree that Liara has already received too much plot significance and her plot armor is much to resilient. She needs to lose it in ME3, not gain even more, if there is to be any hope that I will ever be able to respect Liara's character as part of the overall narrative. As is, she's simply writers' pet. Playable or not doesn't factor into it in any way. The very term "Mary Sue" derives from a Star Trek fan fic, after all. So obviously there's no "must be playable" condition that needs to be satisfied.

For the benefit of those who didn't see the original, I had said that Liara already saved the galaxy in ME1 by finding Ilos and that she didn't strictly fit the definition of a "Mary Sue." After reconsideration, I decided "what the h*** difference does it make WHAT the proper definition of a "Mary Sue" is.

Somebody does need to find a solution to the Reaper problem. My hope is that the solution will be an amalgam of conditions set in the Mass Effect world by the player, i.e. that when abstracted and combined, it is the sum of your decisions spanning the entire trilogy that will determine how Shepard wins the galactic war. I will admit that this is a megalithic expectation, and that I am almost assuredly setting myself up for disappointment. I'm already doing my best to temper my expectations in this regard. I will admit I have *no idea* how Shepard is going to win, and this is largely a result of almost NO exposition taking place in ME2 when ideally, the interim chapter should have explored the Reaper threat much more deeply. I feel that as a result of this, whatever solution is presented in ME3 will very much qualify as a deus ex machina. 

Your expectation of disappointment could be justified, since ME1 was solved by the Mu Relay and ME2 by a 37 million year old IFF that still worked and was aboard a Reaper than none of the previous Reaper cycles had bothered to go retrieve or destroy.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 05:28 .

[marshalleck]

Thompson family wrote...

Clearly even I thought much of that wasn't worth quoting because I edited much out while you were composing youre reply.

Yeah, I've just been making a lot of quote-heavy posts lately and I'm getting really annoyed with this archaic forum software. 

[Paragon Fury]

The reason Cerberus is an enemy in ME3 is because the Illusive Man has been indoctrinated already.

Read the Illusive Man ME comics or the Wiki. Long story short, during the First Contact War the Illusive Man spent a protracted amount of time near a Reaper Artifact that the Turians had discovered brought back to be studied. He becomes indoctrinated during this time, but until the Reaper invasion is isolated enough and strong enough of will to resist.

This artifact is also how Saren first became indoctrinated (its why he was driven to find Sovereign).

[Thompson family]

Seboist wrote...

Liara's the biggest blight in the ME games. They make us go through all that trouble of capturing the Shadow Broker's ship and replacing him only to force her upon us again again as a squadmate so she can get center stage in ME3. She's like a damn scratch that won't go away.

She'll be the death of my Shepard I just know it.

Unfortunately for you, Seboist, that supports the case that her role in ME3 is both central and vital. It's not my fault. That she matters to the plot -- somehow, sone way -- is just inescapable.

jbblue05 wrote...

Are you sure [Liara's relationship with Cerberus] ended ...

I was going to give another long-winded reply, but then decided to keep an open mind. Interesting pionts, bblue05.

[darkangelvxvx]

 I, personally believe that TIM is Indoctrinated.  If you take Miranda against the final boss you'll kinda get a hint as to why I think that; which also plays into how important Miranda is in the future.  As for Liara, I think she knows that he is, or may (since she's the SB)  have the knowledge on how to reverse indoctrination.  
OR:(my own theory)There might be some sort of tangled web between Miranda, Liara, and Legion.  Each of them have vast knowledge about the different aspects of reaper... I guess you'd call it culture.  Miranda has a lot of knowledge from Cerberus, since EDI claims that (if I remember correctly) a portion of the Soveregin "corpse" went into recreating the Normandy.  Which could also direct that EDI herself is some sort of Reaper-hybrid.    As for Liara, she's the SB now, having knowledge and info on well... everything.

As far as Legion is concerned,   If you allowed the "indoctrinated" heretics back into the fold with the Geth, that could also provide a great deal of insite into more about the reapers, since the Heretics wanted, "the old machines to provide a future for them."

This could explain why Cerberus is now the enemy, since Overlord, "if" you free David would lead to the collapse of their attempt to further indoctrinate the geth, as well as a method of using them as shock troopers.  Another hint at this is Admiral Hackett's comentary towards Shep at the end of Arrival, if you do it after the Suicide mission.  Also;  during arrival there's another hint towards Cerberus indoctrination.

ANYWAY... Just a theory.

[Thompson family]

Paragon Fury wrote...

The reason Cerberus is an enemy in ME3 is because the Illusive Man has been indoctrinated already.

Read the Illusive Man ME comics or the Wiki. Long story short, during the First Contact War the Illusive Man spent a protracted amount of time near a Reaper Artifact that the Turians had discovered brought back to be studied. He becomes indoctrinated during this time, but until the Reaper invasion is isolated enough and strong enough of will to resist.

This artifact is also how Saren first became indoctrinated (its why he was driven to find Sovereign).

How long? Longer than 2 days? (Sorry, haven't read the comic.) If so, maybe it was a more powerful artifact than Object Rho, but Shep was exposed to that for two days and could be indoctrinated too by that logic.

Somehow, though, I think Shep's certainty of what the Reapers really are through the Prothen Beacon vision give Shep some resistance to indoctrination. Saren didn't have the same vision until after indoctrination had its claws wrapped around him.

Or perhaps that's what weakened Saren's resolve.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 04:37 .

[Paragon Fury]

Thompson family wrote...

Paragon Fury wrote...

The reason Cerberus is an enemy in ME3 is because the Illusive Man has been indoctrinated already.

Read the Illusive Man ME comics or the Wiki. Long story short, during the First Contact War the Illusive Man spent a protracted amount of time near a Reaper Artifact that the Turians had discovered brought back to be studied. He becomes indoctrinated during this time, but until the Reaper invasion is isolated enough and strong enough of will to resist.

This artifact is also how Saren first became indoctrinated (its why he was driven to find Sovereign).

How long? Longer than 2 days? (Sorry, haven't read the comic.) If so, maybe it was a more powerful artifact than Object Rho, but Shep was exposed to that for two days and could be indoctrinated too by that logic.

Somehow, though, I think Shep's certainty of what the Reapers really are through the Prothen Beacon vision give Shep some resistance to indoctrination. Saren didn't have the same vision until after indoctrination had its claws wrapped around him.

Or perhaps that's what weakened Saren's resolve.

I have trouble remembering the exact timeline, but he was near it for a total of at least a week, and brought into direct contact with it at least twice.

[Thompson family]

Thanks to both HomelessGal and Paragon Fury for the prompt replies. The linked article, by the way, is highly recommended.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was irritated

Also:Upon further consideration,it would be really bad if Liara was that big of a factor in Cerberus pulling their predictable cross,at least make the reason more personal then that.