213 réponses à ce sujet

[karatemanchan37]

I like this theory, and in additions to the OP's (Thompson family) thoughts, I like to add a few more details:

- We know that in the Mass Effect books Kai Leng, the Cerberus assassin killed Aria's daughter, Liselle during his hunt for Paul Grayson. However, Aria does not know this and has settled in an uneasy alliance with Cerberus. What if the Video Archive recorded the death and has the information to put Aria by Shepard's side? Wouldn't it be logical to just destroy the evidence?

[Ahriman]

So Cerberus helps Liara to find Shadow Broker and then realizes "What have we done? Former information broker took control of biggest spy network. How could we forget about this possibility?"

[karatemanchan37]

Wizz wrote...

So Cerberus helps Liara to find Shadow Broker and then realizes "What have we done? Former information broker took control of biggest spy network. How could we forget about this possibility?"

But having by implanting Liara as the Shadow Broker, than they would have an easier time to take control of the base because 1) they know who she is and the people they can use to get to her 2) having allied with Shepard she would be caught off guard and 3) they didn't know how big or powerful the orginal shadow broker could be so they sent her in first as a "trial run"

[Thompson family]

I'm about to sign off for the night and wanted to stop padding my own thread, but karatemanchan37 raises a good point. We know from interviews and the books that Aria's going to play a bigger role in ME3. The SB may well know about Kai Leng killing Liselle, or any one of a number of things Cerberus would rather not have Aria or others know.

karatemanchan37 wrote...

Wizz wrote...

So Cerberus helps Liara to find Shadow Broker and then realizes "What have we done? Former information broker took control of biggest spy network. How could we forget about this possibility?"

But having by implanting Liara as the Shadow Broker, than they would have an easier time to take control of the base because 1) they know who she is and the people they can use to get to her 2) having allied with Shepard she would be caught off guard and 3) they didn't know how big or powerful the orginal shadow broker could be so they sent her in first as a "trialrun"

... and the base is relatively defenseles now, having had the garrison killed by Shep and Co. and with Shep on Earth, facing trial. Although Liara would be foolish not to bring in some Asari commandos.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[Ahriman]

karatemanchan37 wrote...

Wizz wrote...

So Cerberus helps Liara to find Shadow Broker and then realizes "What have we done? Former information broker took control of biggest spy network. How could we forget about this possibility?"

But having by implanting Liara as the Shadow Broker, than they would have an easier time to take control of the base because 1) they know who she is and the people they can use to get to her 2) having allied with Shepard she would be caught off guard and 3) they didn't know how big or powerful the orginal shadow broker could be so they sent her in first as a "trial run"

1) She closed all those sonnections when became Shadow Broker. Why do you think she feels lonely there?
2) TIM is one of people who understand what Shepard can. If you can don't mess with Shepard, don't do it.
3) Spy organisation vs military-terrorist organisation. Hmm, who has more chances to win in real fight?
And that "trial run" gave TIM nothing, he still doesn't know protection of SB base.

[Thompson family]

Wizz wrote...

... And that "trial run" gave TIM nothing, he still doesn't know protection of SB base.

But he didn't know the location. Liara had the means to get the final pieces of that puzzle.

[stysiaq]

Thompson family wrote...

Snipping the quote because I find this forum software's quote feature entirely unreasonable and unsuitable and I'm no longer willing to fight with it.

Clearly even I thought much of that wasn't worth quoting because I edited much out while you were composing youre reply.

To respond to your points: yes, I agree that Liara has already received too much plot significance and her plot armor is much to resilient. She needs to lose it in ME3, not gain even more, if there is to be any hope that I will ever be able to respect Liara's character as part of the overall narrative. As is, she's simply writers' pet. Playable or not doesn't factor into it in any way. The very term "Mary Sue" derives from a Star Trek fan fic, after all. So obviously there's no "must be playable" condition that needs to be satisfied.

For the benefit of those who didn't see the original, I had said that
Liara already saved the galaxy in ME1 by finding Ilos and that she
didn't strictly fit the definition of a "Mary Sue." After
reconsideration, I decided "what the h*** difference does it make WHAT
the proper definition of a "Mary Sue" is.

Liara is the Blue Mary Sue. She is in her blue twenties and in control of biggest classified information network. And She managed switch from sitting in a Prothean dig site to being top information broker  in whooping time of 2 years, which includes all the mess with retrieving Shep's body.

Also, she's beautiful, in a big number of cases she is the Shep's LI, and her biotics whoop @ss. And She is in her blue twenties.

If that's not what defines a Mary Sue, I appologize.

Your expectation of disappointment could be justified, since ME1 was solved by the Mu Relay and ME2 by a 37 million year old IFF that still worked and was aboard a Reaper than none of the previous Reaper cycles had bothered to go retrieve or destroy.

Ekhm, excuse me, but ME1 was 'solved' not just by Mu Relay alone, and you know it. You are right about the derelict Reaper though, because it was a major plot hole.

But that doesn't mean, that making Liara key character of ME3 plot wouldn't be extremely lame. Or annoying. The whole series would be more about Liara, not Shepard & Company.

Liara is likeable in ME1, actually, I find some of her lines quite funny. But the turn the writers took with her in ME2 spoiled the character for me, and she has become an annoyance.

No NPC alone should play the key part to defeting the Reapers. Everyone here should agree it would be incredibly lame if, for example, it turned out that Garrus is the key. Or VS. Or Tali. And they have far less negative feedback than Liara. It simply does not have sense for one being in the world to be the key to victory in a galactic war.

Modifié par stysiaq, 19 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[KevShep]

Its possible that cerberus and the reapers have the same exact goal. Cerberus is pro human.......The reapers are "only" interested in humans. Remember that the reapers motives are still unknown at this point.

[Ahriman]

Thompson family wrote...
But he didn't know the location. Liara had the means to get the final pieces of that puzzle.

That wasn't the last salarian scientist in the galaxy. If somebody could do that, somebody else will be able to.

[Thompson family]

stysiaq wrote...

But that doesn't mean, that making Liara key character of ME3 plot wouldn't be extremely lame. Or annoying. The whole series would be more about Liara, not Shepard & Company.

It wouldn't give me as much heartburn as it clearly would to a lot of people, but even I hope its more collaborative, that some ot the major characters in the books will have a big role to play in ME3 and the counterattack.

I believe the BW folks have said ME3 will be about as long playing-time wise as ME2 -- which means if it drops useless side quests to fix solar screens and such since there's much bigger fish friying, there could be a lot of plot points to make and new characters (for those of us who haven't read the books) to meet.

Wizz wrote...

That wasn't the last salarian scientist in the galaxy. If somebody could do that, somebody else will be able to.

I don't like TIM, but even I assume he had a plan in giving Liara the Intel, and using Shep as the messenger. Also, after the big fight at the Hotel Azure, Liara says she needs the Normandy's stealth to approach the SB planet safely.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Isn't it possible Liara just replaced all the guys her and Shep (and a partner) killed?

She is the SB after all,the yahg said everyone was replaceable,getting some new meat heads shouldn't be hard.

[karatemanchan37]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Isn't it possible Liara just replaced all the guys her and Shep (and a partner) killed?

She is the SB after all,the yahg said everyone was replaceable,getting some new meat heads shouldn't be hard.

I don't think she needs to! The scene at the end where she "takes over" shows us that not even the guards know exactly who the shadow broker is - they only respond to his/her messages or voice, never face-to-face (kinda like President Eden in Fallout 3). So it's not exactly hard to replace all the guys who they killed - it's the need to convince them that the Shadow Broker is still here and is powerful.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TIM attacks Liara...ooohhkayyyy.... Why should my Shep care again?

[ladyvader]

Clonedzero wrote...

i thought canonically the shadowbroker mission takes place after the suicide mission? and the reason you can do it before is cus well, video game.

Time line wise.  Both LotSB and Arrival are set after the SM.  I just wish they didn't show up in game until then.  Especially Arrival.  Playing that before the SM makes zero sense. 

If you plan on cheating on Liara, you are better off doing it before the SM bacause at that point you haven't cheated.  She knows if you do it afterwards. 

[Bcuz]

Indoctrination.

Readthenovelskthxbai.

Modifié par Bcuz, 19 août 2011 - 06:55 .

[Thompson family]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM attacks Liara...ooohhkayyyy.... Why should my Shep care again?

I won't read the OP to you. Sorry. If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, start with the part after "EDITED REVISION"

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 01:52 .

[Thompson family]

Upon reflection, there are at least a few members of Sheps circle who could be targets for TIM besides Liara. Liara is the only one who can’t die in any playthrough, but the issues raised in other recruitment and loyalty missions are still there, presumably..

As several post authors have pointed out, personal scores shouldn’t matter when the Reapers are invading, but there as some key players here who could hold the balance on things that matter.

1. We already know Cerberus will try to kill MORDIN (or his successor) and a Krogan who’s very important to WREX (or his successor); so important that Wrex (whomever) himself will fly into a combat zone to help rescue her.
Liara is my Shep’s LI. If TIM tries to kill her, Shep will get revenge -- but if he kills Wrex, my Shep’s going to be mad as h***.

2. TALI’s data from Halestrom and the information on her father’s experiments. Tali was willing to go into exile to keep those experiments becoming public. I can see TIM and Adm. Xen cooperating on this one, and Tali trying to stop them. So, Renegades, you might get the chance to really abuse Tali again, assuming she survived.
This also has implications for LEGION if they’re alive, since Cerberus wants to control Geth. We see that in Overlord, too.

3. KASUMI, if she didn’t destroy the Greybox, will have information very embarrassing to the Alliance. TIM will either want that or want it destroyed.

4. MIRANDA, on the Paragon path, resigns from Cerberus. She was as close to a trusted lieutenant as TIM ever had, and TIM can get to her through her sister. If she’s dead, well, that’s that.

[Someone With Mass]

I don't think it'll hang on any squadmember, seeing how they all can be dead.

If Cerberus is indoctrinated, there's that. If they're not, then I don't really know.

[Barquiel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM attacks Liara...ooohhkayyyy.... Why should my Shep care again?

Because unlike Cerberus, Liara wants to defeat the reapers and uses the SB resources to help Shepard?

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 août 2011 - 03:56 .

[mineralica]

Thompson family wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM attacks Liara...ooohhkayyyy.... Why should my Shep care again?

I won't read the OP to you. Sorry. If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, start with the part after "EDITED REVISION"

If TIM wants to kill Liara and retake the SB network... he's welcome.

If TIM wants to kill Liara who is the key to stopping the Reapers, and Shepard is forced to stop him, this means that a) favoritism to Liara just got skyhigh levels and TIM is indoctrinated/dumb.

How exactly it's better than just "TIM wants to kill Shepard because he's indoctrinated/dumb"?

Modifié par mineralica, 19 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[Thompson family]

mineralica wrote...
If TIM wants to kill Liara and retake the SB network... he's welcome.

I simply cannot grasp this deference to TIM.

We know for a fact he's going to be a major enemy to Shep — Renegade or Paragon. I don't buy for a minute that somebody took control of Cerberus from him. WHATEVER his motivation is, that will happen. Yet so many people say this: if he wants the SB network — which would help him stay one step at least ahead of Shep — let him.

When pressed on the point, the argument turns to "He's indocrtrinated" — which may be true, but a pretty guilt-free excuse for his behavior. He's off the hook, not responsible for his actions.

This isn't loyalty. This is worship.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[mineralica]

Thompson family wrote...
I simply cannot grasp this deference to TIM.

We know for a fact he's going to be a major enemy to Shep — Renegade or Paragon. I don't buy for a minute that somebody took control of Cerberus from him. WHATEVER his motivation is, that will happen. Yet so many people say this: if he wants the SB network — which would help him stay one step at least ahead of Shep — let him.

When pressed on the point, the argument turns to "He's indocrtrinated" — which may be true, but a pretty guilt-free excuse for his behavior. He's off the hook, not responsible for his actions.

This isn't loyalty. This is worship.

Me? Worship TIM? Momma mia, I'm a paragon player who destroyed Collectors base 21 time of 23 playthroughs.

The reason for "give SB network to TIM" is the same as for "work for Cerberus in ME2" - Shepard may don't want it, but for bigger good you must cooperate with lesser evil. I personally can't stand TIM and his methods, but if he's that powerful that can pull from somewhere 40% of enemies in game, I can forget about this hate and will cooperate.

Shadow broker network? It isn't Collectors base, it won't indoctrinate Cerberus personnel or Cerberus can't lead some sick experiments using it. Well, at least not directly - and what bad he can do using SB network he already can do using own spy network. Maybe with bigger effort, but still.

So I'm rather in peace with giving TIM this network if it will be the price for him and all Cerberus power allying Shepard - and if question will be "have Cerberus as allies but give him SB network OR spend 40% of time fighting Cerberus, wasting precious time while Reapers are invading", the answer is clear for me. Whoever - any character, not only Liara - will oppose that, s/he would better keep it to himself/herself.

Edit: HomelessGal, you're also correct. But I won't want Liara dead if it will mean tactical loss in another area.

Modifié par mineralica, 19 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thompson family wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM attacks Liara...ooohhkayyyy.... Why should my Shep care again?

I won't read the OP to you. Sorry. If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, start with the part after "EDITED REVISION"

Lira AGAIN being the key to defeating the Repaers?

No. Please no.