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Why Mass Effect 1, 2, &3 are RPGs


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#376
littlezack

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sympathy4saren wrote...

littlezack wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

A Vanguard is a biotic warrior. And since you are human, and it takes intensive training and focus to utilize the implant, it only makes sense that they are as potent and talented with conventional weapons like Soldiers, who spent their focus and training utilizing conventional weapons on the battlefield in various situations....

Get out of here. That is just plain dumb.


Shepard's not just a biotic warrior, though - he's N7. Elite. The best of the best of the best of the best of the best. It means he's reached the highest level of mastery a marine can get. Even before ME1 starts, he's already a consumate soldier.

He wouldn't have gotten that rating if he couldn't shoot straight.


I'm not saying he can't shoot. He is elite, but a Soldier N7 must not be too Elite if a biotic can do twice as much just as well as a Soldier N7. Very elite, the Soldier is.....yeah


The soldier has more advantages than just dealing more damage. A biotic doesn't get the Adrenaline implant, which makes the soldiers gun skills much more effective, for instance.

#377
RedCaesar97

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sympathy4saren wrote...

I think I just demonstrated how the class system is now extremely unbalanced. Soldiers are much weaker than biotics just due to the fact a biotics can do twice as much as a Soldier.


Try telling that to the "Biotics are weak" club

#378
Someone With Mass

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sympathy4saren wrote...

I think I just demonstrated how the class system is now extremely unbalanced. Soldiers are much weaker than biotics just due to the fact a biotics can do twice as much as a Soldier.

Strike 2


Soldier can use Concussion Shot mixed with the ammo powers and use grenades, as well as carry up to five weapons at once. 

#379
sympathy4saren

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littlezack wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

littlezack wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

A Vanguard is a biotic warrior. And since you are human, and it takes intensive training and focus to utilize the implant, it only makes sense that they are as potent and talented with conventional weapons like Soldiers, who spent their focus and training utilizing conventional weapons on the battlefield in various situations....

Get out of here. That is just plain dumb.


Shepard's not just a biotic warrior, though - he's N7. Elite. The best of the best of the best of the best of the best. It means he's reached the highest level of mastery a marine can get. Even before ME1 starts, he's already a consumate soldier.

He wouldn't have gotten that rating if he couldn't shoot straight.


I'm not saying he can't shoot. He is elite, but a Soldier N7 must not be too Elite if a biotic can do twice as much just as well as a Soldier N7. Very elite, the Soldier is.....yeah


The soldier has more advantages than just dealing more damage. A biotic doesn't get the Adrenaline implant, which makes the soldiers gun skills much more effective, for instance.


What? A biotic doesn't get the Adrenaline implant? But they are N7. Elite!

#380
littlezack

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sympathy4saren wrote...

littlezack wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

littlezack wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

A Vanguard is a biotic warrior. And since you are human, and it takes intensive training and focus to utilize the implant, it only makes sense that they are as potent and talented with conventional weapons like Soldiers, who spent their focus and training utilizing conventional weapons on the battlefield in various situations....

Get out of here. That is just plain dumb.


Shepard's not just a biotic warrior, though - he's N7. Elite. The best of the best of the best of the best of the best. It means he's reached the highest level of mastery a marine can get. Even before ME1 starts, he's already a consumate soldier.

He wouldn't have gotten that rating if he couldn't shoot straight.


I'm not saying he can't shoot. He is elite, but a Soldier N7 must not be too Elite if a biotic can do twice as much just as well as a Soldier N7. Very elite, the Soldier is.....yeah


The soldier has more advantages than just dealing more damage. A biotic doesn't get the Adrenaline implant, which makes the soldiers gun skills much more effective, for instance.


What? A biotic doesn't get the Adrenaline implant? But they are N7. Elite!


What does being an elite soldier have to do with the implants they give you? Besides, human biotics already have implants. I'd imagine its a case of them not wanting to put too much stuff in your brain.

#381
SpiffySquee

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Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 21 août 2011 - 10:08 .


#382
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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You guys are still discussing Shepard's combat abilities!? Get back on topic people.

#383
lolnoobs

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SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.


Ah, so now ME2 is a hybrid. Well, that changes things. Because that's like saying "Why a Toyota Prius is a electrical car". Although that is partially true, it still needs petrol.

So, you might as well change the title of the thread.

#384
SpEcIaLRyAn

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lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.


Ah, so now ME2 is a hybrid. Well, that changes things. Because that's like saying "Why a Toyota Prius is a electrical car". Although that is partially true, it still needs petrol.

So, you might as well change the title of the thread.




I think an RPG Hybrid is what he means.

#385
SpiffySquee

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lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.


Ah, so now ME2 is a hybrid. Well, that changes things. Because that's like saying "Why a Toyota Prius is a electrical car". Although that is partially true, it still needs petrol.

So, you might as well change the title of the thread.




I have never claimed any different. the video talks about why the lack of inventory, stats, and exploration do not mean ME2 is not an RPG. It was never to argue that ME2 is pure RPG. In fact I have said that in this thread more times than I care to count. That fact that you ignore that and seem to imply I think a dialog system is all that is needed to make something pure RPG is your fault, not mine.

#386
lolnoobs

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SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.


Ah, so now ME2 is a hybrid. Well, that changes things. Because that's like saying "Why a Toyota Prius is a electrical car". Although that is partially true, it still needs petrol.

So, you might as well change the title of the thread.




I have never claimed any different. the video talks about why the lack of inventory, stats, and exploration do not mean ME2 is not an RPG. It was never to argue that ME2 is pure RPG. In fact I have said that in this thread more times than I care to count. That fact that you ignore that and seem to imply I think a dialog system is all that is needed to make something pure RPG is your fault, not mine.



Then you should change the title to something like "Why Mass Effect 1, 2, &3 are Third Person Shooters with some RPG influences."

#387
SpiffySquee

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lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

No one responded to my last post and instead just started talking about why they didn't like the game. Guys, this isn't a plot hole thread, this is whether the game is an RPG or not.


This! I did not make this thread to discuss heat syncs or why Shepard is a good shot. Nor did I make this thread to re-discuss Smudsy's ability to completely side step arguments and call it a rebuttal. I created this thread and the video to discuss my view of what RPG means and why I feel ME2 is an RPG (hybrid not pure)

Please stay on topic, or start another thread.


Ah, so now ME2 is a hybrid. Well, that changes things. Because that's like saying "Why a Toyota Prius is a electrical car". Although that is partially true, it still needs petrol.

So, you might as well change the title of the thread.




I have never claimed any different. the video talks about why the lack of inventory, stats, and exploration do not mean ME2 is not an RPG. It was never to argue that ME2 is pure RPG. In fact I have said that in this thread more times than I care to count. That fact that you ignore that and seem to imply I think a dialog system is all that is needed to make something pure RPG is your fault, not mine.



Then you should change the title to something like "Why Mass Effect 1, 2, &3 are Third Person Shooters with some RPG influences."


That would imply I feel it is more third person shooter than RPG. Which I don't. Personally, I feel it is an RPG with shooter elements. Either way, I don't see adding that to the title since it is like splitting hairs. The game is an RPG just like the ocean is water. That does not mean that it is only water. It has animals, plants, and all sorts of things in it. I don't feel the need to point out all that when I am refuting people who say an ocean does not have water.

#388
Eduadinho

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I think Yahtzee got it wrong it's not the PC gaming master race it is the RPG elitist master race. Fans of hybrid RPGs are dirty peasants.

#389
Schneidend

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It's an RPG...because it's an RPG. What in the hell else do you call it? A third-person shooter? Sure, it has elements of that, but how many purely TPS games do you know of where you can get +X% of Bonus Y by equipping Armor A, but lose out on the bonuses of Armor B? Experience points, leveling up, gear: these are RPG elements. Shooters have been incorporating them for years to critical acclaim, and yet when the reverse happens and somebody makes an RPG with awesome shooter/action gameplay like Borderlands or Diablo, a bunch of self-important pseudo-intellectuals turn up their noses and declare it "dumbing down," content to allow their supposed favorite genre mire in stagnation and novelty.

#390
bioticfu

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This statement is probably gonna earn me a lot of ire, but in my opinion RPG games have evolved greatly beyond turn-based or grindfest games. Looking back to the originators of action-based RPG games like Mechwarrior, Diablo, Armored Core these games set a standard that we now use today.

I know people aren't going to agree that mech combat games are RPGs, however if you really look at it they are; What type of weapons base are you going to use for the mission, what range are you going to fight in, are you going to want to fly or jump, do you want to move fast or slow, if so do you want to be armored or unarmored... Games like these have defined not only the RPG genre in allowing for more streamlined smoother combat interfaces, but have also allowed for action games to absorb RPG elements into them to allow a simple shooter such as DOOM, to evolve the idea of a game like Deus ex. Yes there are simplistic shooters, and also simplistic RPG's, but those originators in the genre are still playing around with a well grounded mechanic, which has since expanded.

But there's no progression in mech games:
Sure that's true, sort of, but there sure as heck is a loot system. Upgrades in equipment and newer pieces act in a similar fashion.

Imagine if people never tried to compress 2 genres like this, mass effect would probably not be here in what we see it as today

#391
Bluko

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I think it should be noted that the Mass Effect games are Action RPGs.

For me the simplest interpretation of an RPG is... RPGs are about choices. Do you choose to the save the village, do you choose to become physically stronger? That is ultimately what makes an RPG an RPG, as the term "Roleplay" is extremely ambiguous and can be applied to anything. Essentially any game allows a player to assume the role of their character. So RPGs are not actually about "roleplaying" despite their name.

The commonly accepted viewed by both the gaming industry and the majority of gamers in that are RPGs are stat driven or about attribute choices. If you insist this is wrong then you're preaching to the choir. Also the creation for such terms in the first place is to make genres or styles of games easier to categorize. Bioware has a noted reputation for making games that skirt the borders of the established genres and this was true even with Baldur's Gate at the time. It's always been difficult to label BW games as any one genre.


Now what's an Action RPG then? An Action RPG is game that involes direct player control for input such as attacking, aiming or using abilities in real time.  You click and Minsc punches. Both ME1 and ME2 are Action RPGs as you do the shooting. The difference is ME1 has more RPG elements (more choices) and ME2 has less. This is undeniable and the Devs have admitted they purposefully streamlined the game to achieve this.

Saying that ME1 is an RPG and that ME2 isn't... is rather arrogant. The correct claim is ME2 has less traditional RPG mechanics where as ME1 had more. Really this whole debate over whether ME2 is an RPG or not is simply a strawman in light of the actual conflict. Some people like that ME2 simplified the RPG mechanics, some don't, and many more simply don't care. I struggle to understand why people can't simply be upfront about this although I think it's largely due to the fact that some people won't let ME2 be critiqued and thus more fallacious arguements have developed as a result.


One thing that concerns me is people claim that Mass Effect is better off without inventory, stats, and loot. This may be true, but this undeniably makes it less of an RPG as you have that much less choice in the game. Yes it is easier to make a stronger narrative as you have more important big decisions by limiting the choices, but I see this as step backwards. I have played several Sandbox games that have far superior stories to many other more restrictive games. Personally I'd say Sandbox games have the greatest potential and while the technology isn't there yet... they will soon surpass games that attempt to be more linear. The gaming market makes this undeniably clear as MMOs, GTA, Elder Scrolls are the biggest sellers outside the FPS market.

Mass Effect is superior to many other RPGs because it has superior cinematic presentation, but still has some element of choice. So what you have is a limited RPG, but one that is very well presented.

However were Mass Effect to do away with Leveling, Inventory, Statistics, etc. entirely it would indeed no longer be an RPG. It would become an Adventure Game. In an Adventure Game you may make choices, but these are entirely relegated to the story. Remember those Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books? If Mass Effect were to only rely on conversation or cinematic elements it becomes purely an Adventure. This is because you are choosing only what to do in relation to the story and while there may be many outcomes, those outcomes are more or less set.

In a RPG your decisions affect gameplay outcomes (damage, etc.)

In an Adventure Game your decisions, if any, affect story (who lives or dies, etc.)

Really the best title for the Mass Effect games is Action Adventure RPG if you ask me.

#392
darkangelvxvx

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How about we call it what it really is? A hellova fun video game.

#393
SpEcIaLRyAn

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darkangelvxvx wrote...

How about we call it what it really is? A hellova fun video game.


This one agrees with the humble BSN member.
:P

#394
SpiffySquee

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bioticfu wrote...

This statement is probably gonna earn me a lot of ire, but in my opinion RPG games have evolved greatly beyond turn-based or grindfest games. Looking back to the originators of action-based RPG games like Mechwarrior, Diablo, Armored Core these games set a standard that we now use today.

I know people aren't going to agree that mech combat games are RPGs, however if you really look at it they are; What type of weapons base are you going to use for the mission, what range are you going to fight in, are you going to want to fly or jump, do you want to move fast or slow, if so do you want to be armored or unarmored... Games like these have defined not only the RPG genre in allowing for more streamlined smoother combat interfaces, but have also allowed for action games to absorb RPG elements into them to allow a simple shooter such as DOOM, to evolve the idea of a game like Deus ex. Yes there are simplistic shooters, and also simplistic RPG's, but those originators in the genre are still playing around with a well grounded mechanic, which has since expanded.

But there's no progression in mech games:
Sure that's true, sort of, but there sure as heck is a loot system. Upgrades in equipment and newer pieces act in a similar fashion.

Imagine if people never tried to compress 2 genres like this, mass effect would probably not be here in what we see it as today


I would suggest you watch the videos in the first post. The deal with why everything you just said does not make a game an RPG in my opinion. The whole point is that mechanics, loot, and combat systems are not what makes a game an RPG.

#395
Bostur

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SpiffySquee wrote...

I would suggest you watch the videos in the first post. The deal with why everything you just said does not make a game an RPG in my opinion. The whole point is that mechanics, loot, and combat systems are not what makes a game an RPG.


In your video you emphasize how the story is presented, which makes sense because presentation of story is very important in PnP roleplaying.
Most video game genres however are defined by the gameplay. It sometimes helps separating the two. In practice most gameplay genres can have similar storytelling techniques as ME. The Wing Commander series is a great example, it was a space combat simulator with dialogue, cut scenes and radio transmissions as the main driver for storytelling. There is nothing preventing a shooter, a racing game or a platform game from using the same techniques, but it wouldn't radically change the actual gameplay or the genre.

So I disagree, mechanics are very much what defines a video game genre. Not the only element but the most important one.

If you argued that Mass Effect was a game with a dialogue based story well suited for personal interpretation, I would agree with you 100%. Many books or movies accomplish the same thing without being roleplaying games.

#396
rpgfan321

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I don't really think about the genre of a game while I am playing that game. I just gauge whether or not I enjoy it. 
But when I talk about it, I do classify it as RPG or what have you because it categorize into a familiar territory. 

I watched the video and you have some really good points there SpiffySquee. Except to point out that JRPGs aren't RPGS, but that is not the issue here. In my opinion, I agree that ME is an RPG. As others have pointed out, an action RPG. A hybrid, if you will. I perfectly agree. 

The direction ME2 took, getting rid of the rigid stat system for weapons and their accuracy/damage, is better because when guns are brought into a game most people think of the usual FPS and the ability to point and shoot. It's a convention. Also what you see in movies and TV shows. You point and shoot. It is for the pure gameplay. Besides if the PC is suppose to be an all-time, badass, space marine with sparkling military record, that said marine should be able to shoot dead-on. If stats somehow hampered that initial impression, you would lose some momentum until that PC got to the point where they can shoot well like imagined. 

I see Mass Effect (1,2, and the up-coming 3) as great games. Nothing more. Nothing less. I had so much fun with it that I am so proud to spazz about it to my fellow friends who play games, and to post it on BSN/Internet. 

So I enjoy it. As a game. Not just as a RPG. 

Oh, by the way SpiffySpuee, your videos were high quality. Both in terms of audio and video itself. Funny images. You have a very eloquent voice, sir. I think I also watched your Reaper theory videos, too. Keep up the good work!<3

#397
SpiffySquee

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rpgfan321 wrote...

I don't really think about the genre of a game while I am playing that game. I just gauge whether or not I enjoy it. 
But when I talk about it, I do classify it as RPG or what have you because it categorize into a familiar territory. 

I watched the video and you have some really good points there SpiffySquee. Except to point out that JRPGs aren't RPGS, but that is not the issue here. In my opinion, I agree that ME is an RPG. As others have pointed out, an action RPG. A hybrid, if you will. I perfectly agree. 

The direction ME2 took, getting rid of the rigid stat system for weapons and their accuracy/damage, is better because when guns are brought into a game most people think of the usual FPS and the ability to point and shoot. It's a convention. Also what you see in movies and TV shows. You point and shoot. It is for the pure gameplay. Besides if the PC is suppose to be an all-time, badass, space marine with sparkling military record, that said marine should be able to shoot dead-on. If stats somehow hampered that initial impression, you would lose some momentum until that PC got to the point where they can shoot well like imagined. 

I see Mass Effect (1,2, and the up-coming 3) as great games. Nothing more. Nothing less. I had so much fun with it that I am so proud to spazz about it to my fellow friends who play games, and to post it on BSN/Internet. 

So I enjoy it. As a game. Not just as a RPG. 

Oh, by the way SpiffySpuee, your videos were high quality. Both in terms of audio and video itself. Funny images. You have a very eloquent voice, sir. I think I also watched your Reaper theory videos, too. Keep up the good work!<3


Awww thanks!!! When I started doing let's plays a year ago, I was afraid my voice would be horrible becasue I used to have a speech impediment. It always gives me the warm fuzzies when someone complements my voice! Mesina2 did a lot of the funny pics this time around though.

I agree that what it is called should not be important to playing a video game. What I take issue with is people bashing Bioware and people who disagree with them just because they define RPG differently. I suppose I could just ignore them... but where is the fun in that?

#398
Kidd

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This video is incredibly well put, it's exactly how I feel. In the future I'll just link people to your videos ^^ Indeed role playing should be defined by role playing. No matter what the game system plays like, it is still as much of an RPG. Doesn't matter if it's a chess/RPG hybrid, shooter/RPG hybrid or a platform/RPG hybrid - it is still just as much of an RPG. Because what an RPG is actually says very little of the exact game play found in a game. If number crunching was the holy grail of RPGs then those RPG fans are quite honestly playing the wrong genre - lots of games have more numbers than RPGs do.

*applause* Thanks for a great video! ^^

#399
Dionkey

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Bluko wrote...
*snip*

Image IPB
This has to be the most logical post I have ever read on BSN. 10/10.

#400
lolnoobs

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Sigh, if al rpg's are about, are choices. Then why isn't Total War considered a rpg? Both strategy and rpgs evolved from wargames, so why isn't Total War a rpg? Or GTA4. The main plot for GTA4 was about revenge and you can CHOOSE to take revenge, or not. So GTA4 is a rpg now?

You know why "ME2 is a rpg"? Because the marketing department from Bioware and EA told you so.

Modifié par lolnoobs, 22 août 2011 - 10:28 .