1002 réponses à ce sujet

[SpiffySquee]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well I must say that to date, I've agreed with everything you've said Squee.  I've been making the same kinds of arguments for months on this forum and people still stubbornly cling to their stats and inventory as proof positive that RPGs are not RPGs unless they have these things.  Like you said, people are mixing up the end, and the means to that end.  Role-playing is the end, stats and inventory are the means to that end.  However, there are other means to get to that end.  It's just one possible way to do it, not the only way.

Of course, we'll just have to see how well received this thread is.  Most of the people who debate like responsible adults have gotten so tired of threads like this that they won't even look at it.  Instead you have ranting trolls like Gatt9 who don't even bother to hear your argument before rebutting it.  Sigh.

PS:  Why did you change your username?  Weren't you squee913 before?

Bioware had some glitch were a lot of people could not sign into their user names or games... I was one of them. I never got an answer on how to fix it  

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Yeah, yeah. That basically sums up my thoughts too. BSN sometimes won't listen to good sense and go silly. I just think that CRPGs can never be rpgs like pen and paper ones, and are more limiting because of the nature of both mediums and how they're different. If people would just understand that...

Not even Bethesda RPGs give you such level of freedom. And never will.

Vyse_Fina wrote...

That's why Bioware stopped calling 3 a RPG right?

They haven't. Ray Muzyka actually reinforced ME3 as an RPG game at Gamescom.

[Teddie Sage]

Yo Squee. I follow your vids on Youtube. I also agree with you on many levels. Thanks for sharing.

[The Spamming Troll]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well I must say that to date, I've agreed with everything you've said Squee.  I've been making the same kinds of arguments for months on this forum and people still stubbornly cling to their stats and inventory as proof positive that RPGs are not RPGs unless they have these things.  Like you said, people are mixing up the end, and the means to that end.  Role-playing is the end, stats and inventory are the means to that end.  However, there are other means to get to that end.  It's just one possible way to do it, not the only way.

Of course, we'll just have to see how well received this thread is.  Most of the people who debate like responsible adults have gotten so tired of threads like this that they won't even look at it.  Instead you have ranting trolls like Gatt9 who don't even bother to hear your argument before rebutting it.  Sigh.

gatt9 isnt wrong.

[wizardryforever]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well I must say that to date, I've agreed with everything you've said Squee.  I've been making the same kinds of arguments for months on this forum and people still stubbornly cling to their stats and inventory as proof positive that RPGs are not RPGs unless they have these things.  Like you said, people are mixing up the end, and the means to that end.  Role-playing is the end, stats and inventory are the means to that end.  However, there are other means to get to that end.  It's just one possible way to do it, not the only way.

Of course, we'll just have to see how well received this thread is.  Most of the people who debate like responsible adults have gotten so tired of threads like this that they won't even look at it.  Instead you have ranting trolls like Gatt9 who don't even bother to hear your argument before rebutting it.  Sigh.

gatt9 isnt wrong.

Yes he is.  On many, many levels.

[Lunatic LK47]

wizardryforever wrote...
Of course, we'll just have to see how well received this thread is.  Most of the people who debate like responsible adults have gotten so tired of threads like this that they won't even look at it.  Instead you have ranting trolls like Gatt9 who don't even bother to hear your argument before rebutting it.  Sigh.

And people wonder why I curse out all of the RPG troll-tards on this forum and have them on my ignore list. I don't care if i got suspended, but those ***holes deserved it.

[DeathDragon185]

somebody please lock this before gatto9 goes out of control

[Omnicrat]

DeathDragon185 wrote...

somebody please lock this before gatto9 goes out of control

... and why would that be a bad thing?

[Il Divo]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I'm not watching that,  I already know what it says.  "It's an RPG because there's a story,  and I pretend I'm shepherd".

1.  Narratives don't make games an RPG.

2.  Narrative techniques such as illusionary choices that don't actually have any effect don't make games RPG's or Roleplaying.

3.  There's a difference between those two things,  and if you're not aware of the difference between Roleplaying and a Roleplaying-Game,  respectfully,  you don't know what an RPG is.  This is Roleplaying...



I would be willing to bet 99% of the people who claim Roleplaying and RPG are the same thing don't realize they just defined RPG's as running around a forest with a plastic sword and shield yelling "Lightning bolt!  Lightning bolt!".  I'd be willing to bet an even bigger pile of money that those same people wouldn't willingly do that.

4.  RPG mechanics make things RPG's.  Just like First-person and Shooter mechanics make things FPS's,  just like Real-time and strategy mechanics make RTS.

So allow me to be the first to welcome all of the new members of the LARPSing community to their new home,  you can find the plastic swords and shields at ToysRus.

Or,  OTOH,  we can just admit that ME2 and likely ME3 are TPS's with a narrative.

Wow... you are so far off on what the video is about that it is just sad...
Narrative makes RPG? 
The fact that you think you can assume what a video is about is just... sadAnd then you think you can refute an argument you just assumed I made is just down right... arrogant  <_<

Just ignore him, Squee. At this point Gatt9's built up a reputation for baseless assumptions. It's become his "thing".

[Phaedon]

What Il Divo said.

I think that a lot of us refuse to argue with people who make arguments, get rebutted, and repost the exact same argument with no corrections in another thread after a week/month.

Modifié par Phaedon, 19 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Leonia]

Doesn't matter if they are RPGs or not so long as they are fun and enjoyable.

[Savber100]

Il Divo wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I'm not watching that,  I already know what it says.  "It's an RPG because there's a story,  and I pretend I'm shepherd".

1.  Narratives don't make games an RPG.

2.  Narrative techniques such as illusionary choices that don't actually have any effect don't make games RPG's or Roleplaying.

3.  There's a difference between those two things,  and if you're not aware of the difference between Roleplaying and a Roleplaying-Game,  respectfully,  you don't know what an RPG is.  This is Roleplaying...



I would be willing to bet 99% of the people who claim Roleplaying and RPG are the same thing don't realize they just defined RPG's as running around a forest with a plastic sword and shield yelling "Lightning bolt!  Lightning bolt!".  I'd be willing to bet an even bigger pile of money that those same people wouldn't willingly do that.

4.  RPG mechanics make things RPG's.  Just like First-person and Shooter mechanics make things FPS's,  just like Real-time and strategy mechanics make RTS.

So allow me to be the first to welcome all of the new members of the LARPSing community to their new home,  you can find the plastic swords and shields at ToysRus.

Or,  OTOH,  we can just admit that ME2 and likely ME3 are TPS's with a narrative.

Wow... you are so far off on what the video is about that it is just sad...
Narrative makes RPG? 
The fact that you think you can assume what a video is about is just... sadAnd then you think you can refute an argument you just assumed I made is just down right... arrogant  <_<

Just ignore him, Squee. At this point Gatt9's built up a reputation for baseless assumptions. It's become his "thing".

It's a pity too. Underneath all that rough exterior, Gatt9 does make the occasional good point about the current state of RPGs. 

[Phaedon]

leonia42 wrote...

Doesn't matter if they are RPGs or not so long as they are fun and enjoyable.

And the classic rebuttal to this is "Then stop marketing them as RPGs"

And yes, it's funny because you have people complaining about ME3 being described as a "high octane adventure and great intergalactic war"

And I bet that they would never whine about the developers of Final Fantasy marketing their games as RPGs, even though it disagrees with their own definition.

Modifié par Phaedon, 19 août 2011 - 12:05 .

[Candidate 88766]

leonia42 wrote...

Doesn't matter if they are RPGs or not so long as they are fun and enjoyable.

Bingo.

ME1 wasn't a very good RPG. It was a fantastic game, but rated purely as an RPG it was pretty poor. Pretty much everyone on this forum still enjoyed it though. It was fairly fun to play, but the story managed to shine through all the various problems it had. Thats the important bit - the story, the characters, all that stuff, not what genre ME falls into.

And to people who say it shouldn't be marketed as an RPG, it isn't. It is and always has been marketed as an action-RPG. Shops may put it in the RPG section, but that doesn't mean ME was advertised as one.

[Fenris_13]

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

[Il Divo]

Savber100 wrote...

It's a pity too. Underneath all that rough exterior, Gatt9 does make the occasional good point about the current state of RPGs. 

He certainly does. The odd part is, he refuses to watch Squee's video while making very broad generalizations about its contents. Then in the very same thread he writes a long-winded post regarding the state of RPGs. Why does he expect anyone to care about his opinions when he refuses to extend the same courtesy to others? It's baffling.

[Candidate 88766]

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

They never said that. They said they wanted the same level of success CoD had, and that they wanted an audience akin to the size CoD gets - what developer wouldn't want that success, and what fanbase wouldn't want their favourite developers to be that successful? - but they never literally said they wanted CoD players. CoD is an FPS, focused on competitive multiplayer. ME is an third person action-RPG, focused purely on single player. They have literally nothing in common.

[Phaedon]

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

I will say it again, ignorance is bliss.

Anyone who complained about BioWare wanting to attract a bigger audience (which includes RPG gamers), didn't bother reading the article.

[Aaleel]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

They never said that. They said they wanted the same level of success CoD had, and that they wanted an audience akin to the size CoD gets - what developer wouldn't want that success, and what fanbase wouldn't want their favourite developers to be that successful? - but they never literally said they wanted CoD players. CoD is an FPS, focused on competitive multiplayer. ME is an third person action-RPG, focused purely on single player. They have literally nothing in common.

No they actually said they wanted to extend their fanbase.  They said that RPGs and FPS had things in common such a putting points into things and level progression.  They said that FPS players wouldn't consider them RPGs but they share some of the same elements.

[didymos1120]

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

Well, that's just silly.  All that matters is the game itself, which you've yet to play or see in any detail.

[Chewin]

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

Well, COD is a RPG.

- You play as a fictional character.

- You kill fake people.

- Certain weapons deals set amounts of damage. And hitting on certain parts on the enemies body deals certain amount of damage, which adds role playing experience.

- There are maps.

- The enviroment is fictional andgrounded in a story

But anyway, my point being is that this is probably why the developers are thinking when they are saying that they "want the COD players". Of course the difference are also a mile wide, but if we only bridge them we get a glorious RPG and a "welcoming" experience.

[Candidate 88766]

Aaleel wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

They never said that. They said they wanted the same level of success CoD had, and that they wanted an audience akin to the size CoD gets - what developer wouldn't want that success, and what fanbase wouldn't want their favourite developers to be that successful? - but they never literally said they wanted CoD players. CoD is an FPS, focused on competitive multiplayer. ME is an third person action-RPG, focused purely on single player. They have literally nothing in common.

No they actually said they wanted to extend their fanbase.  They said that RPGs and FPS had things in common such a putting points into things and level progression.  They said that FPS players wouldn't consider them RPGs but they share some of the same elements.

Thats what I said. Bioware never said they literally want CoD's audience - besides, ME doesn't appeal to the same market that CoD appeals to. 

They have a point that FPSs and RPGs share many elements. Games like CoD and Battlefield have more stats than most RPGs. Genre boundaries are being broken down, and features that were unique to one genre are now used in any genre of game where they are relevant. The only types of game that aren't moving forward are RPGs, and that is what Bioware has been trying to do with ME - move RPGs forward.