1002 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

deimosmasque wrote...

As a Role-Player I will say this, Abigail Shepard (My Spacer/Ruthless/Infiltrator) is more real to me than any of my Fallout characters, my Final Fantasy characters or my Oblivion characters.

She fears her mother's reprisals and is racist to Batarians. She is a character I made, and I play her beyond
what her three starting choices are. That's roleplaying, and make no mistake, Mass Effect lets you roleplay... better than any game I found before. Not just ME1, ME2 allows it as well.

TLDR: Video Game RPGs need to evolve or become extinct.

I appreciate your "history" with video game RPGs, but I disagree that you made the character.  Shepard is not a character you made, Shepard is a character BioWare made and has leased to you.  Your Shepard's gender and appearance are simply a result of your role as a dollmaker.  And while Shepard's attitude, dialogue choices, and paragon/renegade decisions are up to you to pick, it's only after you pick them do you get a sense of what you want Shepard to be.  I've read more than one person say that they can't play ME or ME2 again because they've already played through with their "canon" Shepard.  This is because you are rolling your Shepard throughout the game, and aren't really done with your version of Shepard until the end of the game.  The trouble is, at the end of the game there's no more adventure left to bring your version of Shepard through for the first time.

Stii, I agree that you are role-playing Shepard, but only in a certain way.  Your Shepard's fear of hearing it from Mom, and being racist to Batarians, are spun from to the game allowing you to receive emails from Mom, and to treat Batarians un-kindly.  You are filling in certain details based on your interactions with the game, some of which unfortunately you cannot express through in-game actions (like your fear of Mom's reprisals).  You do not even get to choose the words you speak, or what actions you will perform when the paragon/renegade mechanic comes a-flashing.  It is still role-playing, but it is a reactionary form of role-playing vs. rolling a character with certain attitudes from the start, and setting that character off to adventure.  With games like the ME games, DA2, TW2, and Deus Ex, it's hard to roll a complete character at the start, you almost need the interactions with the game to help sort the character out.

Modifié par jds1bio, 26 août 2011 - 06:40 .

[deimosmasque]

jds1bio wrote...

I appreciate your "history" with video game RPGs, but I disagree that you made the character.  Shepard is not a character you made, Shepard is a character BioWare made and has leased to you.  Your Shepard's gender and appearance are simply a result of your role as a dollmaker.  And while Shepard's attitude, dialogue choices, and paragon/renegade decisions are up to you to pick, it's only after you pick them do you get a sense of what you want Shepard to be.  I've read more than one person say that they can't play ME or ME2 again because they've already played through with their "canon" Shepard.  This is because you are rolling your Shepard throughout the game, and aren't really done with their version of Shepard until the end of the game.  The trouble is, at the end of the game there's no more adventure left to bring your version of Shepard through for the first time.

You're absolutley right, in a way.  But that's always the way in video game RPGs, you have limited control of what they do.  In Final Fantasy 1, I picked 4 character classes and moved on, I made no decisions beyond that.  In Dragon Warrior 1 I was the "Decendent of Eldric" and went with no choice.  Yet those two games are considered RPGs.

In the Fallout series I had more choice but even then I was limited.  We are always limited.  The second you can't verbaly or textually describe out your character you are limited.  Complete immersion can never happen.  As a long time table-top RPGer I'm fine with that.  I recognize that limit in video games and I don't expect it to go away in my life-time.

But those people who have "canon" Shepard... they are metagamers.  Not all of them, you'll never be right if you generalize.  I'm sure those with "canon" Shepards just consider that their primary playthrough.  Others do not.   They decided before they started what they wanted, or atleast that they wanted a Good or Evil playthrough and were going to do that.

Want to know when I realized Abigail Sheperd feared her mom?   When I was standing in the Normandy Comm Room in ME1, during the "Old, Unhappy, Far-Off Things" assignment.  There I realized my Shepard who had grown up sneaking around ships and ruthlessly slaughtering Batarians, who I had decided had never even had a boyfriend... was terrified by her mom.  She was sure that she was going to hear 'Why aren't you married?  Why aren't you giving me grand-children."

Yes, the game doesn't provide that.  Your mind does.   And yeah,  I decided that Abigail hated Batarians when I chose the Ruthless Background.  No doubts about that.  But that doesn't make it any less roleplaying.  That doesn't make her decision that she couldn't commit Genocide with the Rachni any less poinet.  It doesn't make the fact that Wrex understood her better than anyone any less real. 

Role-playing always has been in your mind, which is why games like Halo and GTA are not roleplaying, you don't choose the motivations... ever.

Stii, I agree that you are role-playing Shepard, but only in a certain way.  Your Shepard's fear of hearing it from Mom, and being racist to Batarians, are spun from to the game allowing you to receive emails from Mom, and to treat Batarians un-kindly.  You are filling in certain details based on your interactions with the game, some of which unfortunately you cannot express through in-game actions (like your fear of Mom's reprisals).  You do not even get to choose the words you speak, or what actions you will perform when the paragon/renegade mechanic comes a-flashing.  It is still role-playing, but it is a reactionary form of role-playing vs. rolling a character with certain attitudes from the start, and setting that character off to adventure.  With games like the ME games, DA2, TW2, and Deus Ex, it's hard to roll a complete character at the start, you almost need the interactions with the game to help sort the character out.

I sort of already answered this but I will do it a bit more.  When I made Abigail Shepard I made her off another character.  Abigail Brand from Astonishing X-Men... even when I was chosing her backstory with Spacer and Ruthless I was thinking of the base character.  I was deciding how I wanted her to play out.  Her racism against the Batarians came when I chose Ruthless, the fear of her mom came as I thought of what Abigail would think of her mom with the Spacer background.

As for rolling the character.  Even in the old days of Advanced D&D you were allowed multiple ways to roll your character.  I have a character binder that has character sheets from as old as my 'Mary Sue' days in the TSR Marvel Superhero Game.  I keep them all.  Some of them really suck.  I still have the character sheet from my first D&D 3e character who died the frist time he encountered an Orc.

But "rolling" a character isn't always the best idea.  It limits you just as much as "pre-scripted dialouge" does.  My favorite non-RPG game right now is Bayonetta.  And yeah I never think that I "am" Bayonetta.  But with Shepard I can feel my ideas coming through.  Not always perfectly (I am one of the few who don't punch the reporter) but it does come through.

As far as video game RPGs have come in my time, Bioware games do the best at the whole "What I choose is what I say" since voice acting has become common place.

[Eduadinho]

Can the moderators just kill this thread they happen far to often and it always boils down to this.

[Krunjar]

Seconded this is a retarded argument led by people who thiink that game genres are like gangs. And you have to pledge youre alleigance to them or something. Bioware games havent really been good since IWD:2 anyway. And even that paled before BG2. You want a good plot? It's still there. You want character progression? It's still there. You want strategy rather than action based combat? guess what folks IT'S STILL THERE. I think i can somehow survive not having to spend 3 hours running around locations i couldn't possibly figure out myself fnding crafting reagents in order to get the best sword/gun in the game. Or having to reset my game because my decisions during level ups made my party unplayable.

[Guldhun2]

Some of you are making the RPG genre so broad it could just replace the word video game. Yes you play shepard, yes you choose some dialogue. That's a RPG?

I can pick angry shepard dialogue, i can pick good shepard dialogue, i can pick neutral shepard dialogue. That's it.

All you can do is pick one of the three Shepards Bioware has selected for you to be.

Modifié par Guldhun2, 26 août 2011 - 09:40 .

[Pulletlamer]

deimosmasque wrote...

In the Fallout series I had more choice but even then I was limited.  We are always limited.  The second you can't verbaly or textually describe out your character you are limited.  Complete immersion can never happen.  As a long time table-top RPGer I'm fine with that.  I recognize that limit in video games and I don't expect it to go away in my life-time.

Yes. Even table-top RPG's are limited. You can't always go where you want or do what you want. It is true you can experience a sense of freedom  but even then you're limited to certain paths or actions that the GM decided.

I said this before: The game that allows you complete freedom (by that I mean doing, or atleast trying to do what you want at all times) would be a perfect RPG. That game doesn't exist, atleast yet. You're always limited in some sense. Even LARPS are limited

deimosmasque wrote...

But those people who have "canon" Shepard... they are metagamers.  Not all of them, you'll never be right if you generalize.  I'm sure those with "canon" Shepards just consider that their primary playthrough. 
Others do not.   They decided before they started what they wanted, or atleast that they wanted a Good or Evil playthrough and were going to do that.

Well, I won't deny that at all, it's just I don't think it's the player's fault in most cases. That is caused by what I consider a massive issue with the current P/R system on ME2. The game forces you to metagame.

I found me asking myself on my 2nd-3rd playthrough (the first one I roleplayed since I had no idea how the system worked and I failed on the Normandy discussions due to that) Which option gives me more points? Instead of: Which option would I say in that situation?. It's really that sad. I try to roleplay, but ME2 penalizes me for doing it, so I am forced to almost go full paragon or renegade (with few exceptions). But that's another discussion.

Eduadinho wrote...

Can the moderators just kill this thread they happen far to often and it always boils down to this.

I ask you who do you think you are to say what the moderators must do? Not trying to be offensive, just a honest question.

If you don't like the discussion, don't post. But don't say this should be locked just because you think so.

 If you had taken the time to atleast see the videos of the OP instead of just asuming that it always "boils down to this" (whatever that means), or instead of lowering it to the category of  "one that happens far too often", then we would be talking. So yeah, go troll somewhere else.

Guldhun2 wrote...

Some of you are making the RPG genre so broad it could just replace the word video game. Yes you play shepard, yes you choose some dialogue. That's a RPG?

I can pick angry shepard dialogue, i can pick good shepard dialogue, i can pick neutral shepard dialogue. That's it.

All you can do it pick one of the three Shepards Bioware has selected for you to be.

That's not true, since every choice has a different consequence or impact, if it's smaller or bigger doesn't matter, the point is people and/or the universe/world reactes differently to every choice you make, even if it's just a different dialogue. And there's a lot of choices. Which means:

Lot of choices = Lots of consequences

Lots of choices + lots of different consequences = lots of different playthroughs.

Which means there's a lot of options and that almost every playthrough is different than another. So it's not really 3 ways of beating the game, there's a lot. Which makes it an RPG.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 26 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[Guldhun2]

Pulletlamer wrote...


That's not true, since every choice has a different consequence or impact, if it's smaller or bigger doesn't matter, the point is people and/or the universe/world reactes differently to every choice you make, even if it's just a different dialogue. And there's a lot of choices. Which means:

Lot of choices = Lots of consequences

Lots of choices + lots of different consequences = lots of different playthroughs.

Which means there's a lot of options and that almost every playthrough is different than another. So it's not really 3 ways of beating the game, there's a lot. Which makes it an RPG.

But choice and consequence have little to do with it being an RPG. It's fun to have them yes, but it doesn't make ME an RPG. Like i said before, in Heavy Rain there's:  

Lot of choices = Lots of consequences

Lots of choices + lots of different consequences = lots of different playthroughs.

Which means there's a lot of options and that almost every playthrough
is different than another. So it's not really 3 ways of beating the
game, there's a lot. Which makes it an RPG.

But Heavy Rain is not a RPG. Even Deus EX has a lot of choice and consequence, you can even *gasp* choose how to do a mission. Unlike Shepard who's KILL KILL KILL (paragon dialogue interlude) KILL KILL KILL. Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

Modifié par Guldhun2, 26 août 2011 - 10:05 .

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

But Heavy Rain is not a RPG. Even Deus EX has a lot of choice and consequence, you can even *gasp* choose how to do a mission. Unlike Shepard who's KILL KILL KILL (paragon dialogue interlude) KILL KILL KILL. Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

Funny, because Deus Ex is considered to be one of the greatest RPGs ever made. But I suppose everyone got it wrong.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

But Heavy Rain is not a RPG. Even Deus EX has a lot of choice and consequence, you can even *gasp* choose how to do a mission. Unlike Shepard who's KILL KILL KILL (paragon dialogue interlude) KILL KILL KILL. Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

Funny, because Deus Ex is considered to be one of the greatest RPGs ever made. But I suppose everyone got it wrong.

ACTION rpg.

They even say so on their site: A perfect mix of action and role-play

Modifié par Guldhun2, 26 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...
ACTION rpg.

They even say so on their site: A perfect mix of action and role-play

So are we saying action-RPGs aren't RPGs? Keep in mind, this covers games like Jade Empire, Diablo, Kingdom Hearts, etc. Of course, it also includes crap like Dungeon Siege 3.

[Varen Spectre]

Eduadinho wrote...

Can the moderators just kill this thread they happen far to often and it always boils down to this.

I am sorry but I will have to disagree... It's exactly because of the fact, that threads like this one "happen far too often", that locking it would not have any longer effect or meaning. To the contrary, it's probable that people who haven't finished their posts and opinions would either start another one or would knowingly or inadverently derail other threads - imagine this thread as some kind of "lightning rod" for the posts of the people who want to point out that MEs are or are not RPGs...

And based on the size of the thread, it's obious that there are more than enough forum members who are willing to participate in the discussion. Unless the topic somehow violates the ToS/ToU (it could be argued that the topic is more fitting for general ME thread, but all previous efforts tho lock / move the thread did not accomplish much because this is currently the most active forum about ME and the posters will most likely bring the topic back here) or the derailment of the thread has reached the level, which requires its restart (IMO not the case here yet, but that's up to mods' discretion), I don't think that locking is necessary... ¯\\__/¯   

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...
ACTION rpg.

They even say so on their site: A perfect mix of action and role-play

So are we saying action-RPGs aren't RPGs? Keep in mind, this covers games like Jade Empire, Diablo, Kingdom Hearts, etc. Of course, it also includes crap like Dungeon Siege 3.

So are we saying Action-RPGs aren't action games? Why are they first and foremost RPGs and not Action games?

Modifié par Guldhun2, 26 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[Pulletlamer]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...


That's not true, since every choice has a different consequence or impact, if it's smaller or bigger doesn't matter, the point is people and/or the universe/world reactes differently to every choice you make, even if it's just a different dialogue. And there's a lot of choices. Which means:

Lot of choices = Lots of consequences

Lots of choices + lots of different consequences = lots of different playthroughs.

Which means there's a lot of options and that almost every playthrough is different than another. So it's not really 3 ways of beating the game, there's a lot. Which makes it an RPG.

But choice and cosequence have little to do with it being an RPG. It's fun to have them yes, but it doesn't make ME an RPG. Like i said before, in Heavy Rain there's:  

Lot of choices = Lots of consequences

Lots of choices + lots of different consequences = lots of different playthroughs.

Which means there's a lot of options and that almost every playthrough
is different than another. So it's not really 3 ways of beating the
game, there's a lot. Which makes it an RPG.

But Heavy Rain is not a RPG. Even Deus EX has a lot of choice and consequence, you can even *gasp* choose how to do a mission. Unlike Shepard who's KILL KILL KILL (paragon dialogue interlude) KILL KILL KILL. Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

You're right on some part. I explained it here, (the best I could) how I understand RPG's:

Pulletlamer wrote...

Some example of games that have RPG elements but are not RPG's:

Everyone says that inventories and stats are what makes an RPG. Well, Dead Space has an inventory. Is it an RPG? No.

Assasins Creed has good story-telling. Is it an RPG? No.

Army of Two:The 40th Day had a morality system. Is it an RPG? No.

Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell:Double Agent had a morality system too. Is it an RPG? No.

LA Noire has a lot of decisions and choices. Is it an RPG? No.

Conclusion: What makes an RPG is the combination of a story with decisions/choices or some form of freedom in your actions that make your character develop differently along the game based on what you do.

Having choices influences greatly the way your character eveolves on ME. What happens with ME is that choices are a very important part of the game, if we took them out it would probably boild down to "action game with light RPG elements / customization".

However, in games like Heavy Rain (which sorry I haven't played, so I'm assuming from the videos/reviews I have seen) I don't think it's the same. I don't think you have as much freedom as in other RPG games. Heavy Rain you have a series of  predetermined encounters with some people and you react differently to them.

For example, as I said La Noire (or Army of Two: 40th Day) has a lot of choices in conversations. But it's not an RPG. No matter what you choose, the character develops always the same way and encounters the same series of events.

It' just going a straight line with some encounters the game puts you along the way. There's no ramification. RPG's are all about choosing different paths

Your character don't evolves (at all) (psycologically or as an induvidual) along the story of the game. At the end of the game you're the same dude, it's just you have choosen different actions.

I don't really know how to explain it exactly, but I think the difference resides in:

Going somewhere and having X conversation with Y person / or doing X, versus going along the same linear path choosing different ways of beating the game by saying X or doing Y. Seems the same, but it's not.

EDIT: I'm going to draw a picture (with paint, don't get your hopes up) to illustrate what I mean more clearly.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 26 août 2011 - 10:15 .

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

So are we saying Action-RPGs aren't action games? Why are they first and foremost RPGs and not Action games?

Because RPG is the noun and 'action' the adjective. The noun tells us what the game is. The adjective is used to modify the noun, not the other way around.

I also am inclined to ask: why should we believe they are action games first, no thte other way around.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 août 2011 - 10:14 .

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

So are we saying Action-RPGs aren't action games? Why are they first and foremost RPGs and not Action games?

Because RPG is the noun and 'action' the adjective. The noun tells us what the game is. The adjective is used to modify the noun, not the other way around.

I also am inclined to ask: why should we believe they are action games first, no thte other way around.

Because they are both. Not "It's an RPG", not "It's an Action game". They are both.

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Because they are both. Not "It's an RPG", not "It's an Action game". They are both.

Your claim: Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

Because Deus Ex is an RPG does not mean Deus Ex is not an action game. You might describe it as an 'action-RPG' to give someone a more accurate depiction of what to expect, but your post indicated that Deus Ex has no association with the role-playing genre.

[Guldhun2]

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Because they are both. Not "It's an RPG", not "It's an Action game". They are both.

Your claim: Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

Because Deus Ex is an RPG does not mean Deus Ex is not an action game. You might describe it as an 'action-RPG' to give someone a more accurate depiction of what to expect, but your post indicated that Deus Ex has no association with the role-playing genre.

Deus Ex is not a RPG, it's a action rpg.

Is a mule a horse, or a donkey? Or is it both?

[Il Divo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Deus Ex is not a RPG, it's a action rpg.

An action RPG is an RPG, by definition. Much like a 'black bear' is still considered a bear.

Is a mule a horse, or a donkey? Or is it both?

Depends on your terminology.

[Guldhun2]

Because the developers of Deus Ex say it themselves.

A perfect mix of action and role-play

I'd say a mule is a mix of a horse and a donkey. Maybe not a perfect one, but still a mix.

Modifié par Guldhun2, 26 août 2011 - 10:31 .

[Pulletlamer]

This is how I see it.



The dots represent encounters or series of events. The lines at the end of the second picture represents possible different endings.Now here's the difference. In RPG's, it's not always necessary (yes of course, there's a series of events you must do,and the game forces you to do, but that is not the point I'm trying to make) that you have to talk to X person to do X mission or thing. You can completely ignore talking to that person and doing his mission, or you can avoid having an encounter with that person, or you can miss stuff.

While in other games, you do. You are forced to a straight line of events. How you deal with those events is irrelevant since at the end even if the choice you make on an encounter has a different consequence, you're always boil down to the same path and to do (nearly) the exact same things.

Yes, maybe there's some games that allow you more or less freedom (GTA, LA Noire), or you can also miss some encounters, but you are clearly forced to do the same things, the same series of events to progress in the story/game, the game redirects you to the same exact path, every time. In RPG's you can ignore that and go to do another thing. When I play an RPG I don't feel forced to do X thing to progress (to a limited extent of course).

Seems the same but it's not. Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

EDIT: I did it with GIMP, I know it's a horrible picture but still it's just to illustrate.

EDIT2: Action and RPG games are not mutually exclusive.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 26 août 2011 - 10:56 .

[Varen Spectre]

:lol:

So I checked the IGN's interview with Warren Spector and well, it's soo similar to the current topic that I really LOL'ed.

IGNPC: Let's start off with an easy one. How would you describe Deus Ex?

Honestly, though, the game doesn't fit as neatly into a specific genre as the marketing and sales guys might like. It has elements of immersive simulation but it also has some elements more commonly found in action games. Heck, I bet there are some people out there who will think it's an adventure game!

I call it a roleplaying game because I subscribe to the belief that an RPG is a game in which players PLAY A ROLE (novel concept, eh?) and make character development choices that insure they end up with unique alter egos. They then make their way through a variety of minute-to-minute gameplay experiences (which add up to a story) in a manner that grows naturally out of the unique aspects of their alter ego. If you agree with me, then Deus Ex is definitely a roleplaying game. Every game system is designed to differentiate one PC from another and to allow players to express those character differences in obvious and, I hope, cool ways in the game world.

If an RPG, to you, is something that involves a bunch of arbitrary character stats and a million skills tracked at a fine level of granularity and used, in conjunction with secret die rolls, to determine what happens when you try to do something in the game world, well, you might not be as inclined to call Deus Ex an RPG. I hope and think folks like that will still find plenty to like in Deus Ex but they might not consider it a roleplaying game, in the traditional sense...

Also, from the more famous magazines, gamespot classified it as an action - adventure, 1up as action, gamespy as RPG, IGN as first person RPG, etc. So I think that Spector's wish was not completely granted. But still, there was enough mags that indeed classified it as RPG... And those were the days when various hybrids and "genre-lite" games were nowhere near as popular...

Still, after this interview, based on my respect to creator of my favorite game... well... I don't know...  Maybe I'll change my philosophy eventually...

Either way, keep the posts coming! 

[Il Divo]

Varen Spectre wrote...

Also, from the more famous magazines, gamespot classified it as an action - adventure, 1up as action, gamespy as RPG, IGN as first person RPG, etc. So I think that Spector's wish was not completely granted. But still, there was enough mags that indeed classified it as RPG... And those were the days when various hybrids and "genre-lite" games were nowhere near as popular...

Still, after this interview, based on my respect to creator of my favorite game... well... I don't know...  Maybe I'll change my philosophy eventually...

Either way, keep the posts coming! 

I really like that answer. And the lines are made even more blurry with Human Revolution, which includes an interesting mixture of player vs. character elements.

[SpiffySquee]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...
ACTION rpg.

They even say so on their site: A perfect mix of action and role-play

So are we saying action-RPGs aren't RPGs? Keep in mind, this covers games like Jade Empire, Diablo, Kingdom Hearts, etc. Of course, it also includes crap like Dungeon Siege 3.

So are we saying Action-RPGs aren't action games? Why are they first and foremost RPGs and not Action games?

People keep ignoring the original argument. The videos argued the fact that inventory, stats, and skill trees were merely a means to an end. They helped a person role play, but they were not necessary for a game to be an RPG. The argument was never that ME is a pure RPG, or that it did not have action elements. It was simply that those aspects listed above are not the sole or most important reason an RPG is called an RPG and that reducing their importance in ME2 did not mean it lost it's RPG aspect. I have never and will never claim ME is pure RPG. It is a hybrid.

[Guldhun2]

jreezy wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...

Yet Deus Ex is not a RPG. 

So when did that happen?

When the developers themselves call it an ActionRpg.