1002 réponses à ce sujet

[sorentoft]

cachx wrote...

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/567
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/567

I laughed, especially the first panel

!
So true. xD

[sympathy4saren]

Phaedon wrote...

Guldhun2 wrote...
You can easily finish ME2 without taking any skills. Never tried it in ME1 though, but that isn't "deep" at all.

Deep? Yes, in comparison to ME1 always. It's not deep by itself.

I have went ahead and completed a playthrough without stat. progression in ME1. It's pretty easy, due to the very low difficulty of the game, mostly.

However:
-Items in ME1 have very few statistical variables attached to them. And they are always better or worse. There is no depth. There would be no difference if the game improved the stats, of let's say, your weapon per mission. That is of course not the case in ME2, if you actually look at the stats and the way each weapon plays in-game.

-All stat changes in ME1have an incredibly minor effect on their own. On the other hand, there are items in ME2 that can give you up to +2/30% bonuses in items.

Lol. Saying statistics were more in depth in ME2 than ME1 is pure dogma.

If inaccurate assertions like this are made as the hypothetical axiom of an argument, there can be no true legitimate debate.

Again, people also keep relying on the perception that Mass Effect's stats were the end all be all when arguing in support of Mass Effect 2. Many of us want that level of mismanagement also at an evolved level....more coherent and efficient without sacrificing customization of skills and mods.

Really....stats had no effect in a mission? Inaccurate again. If I had a stabilizer, overheating cooler and ammunition that was much better against synthetics, whatever percentage that was, I was more successful than you using the exact same weapon....it enabled optimization. It would have no effect in Mass Effect 2, maybe, just because the mechanic systems that supported them were gutted out.

[Someone With Mass]

Oh no. I don't have those stats that gave the first game the illusion of depth, when they really just gave like 30% boosters to everything at best. What will I do?

Maybe I could buy one of those upgrades, that works the exact same way as those stats, but they're actually permanent, so I don't have to waste my time going through dozens of items to find the right mod so my weapon can hit anything effectively. Yeah, that sounds good.

[Phaedon]

sympathy4saren wrote...
Lol. Saying statistics were more in depth in ME2 than ME1 is pure dogma. 

If inaccurate assertions like this are made as the hypothetical axiom of an argument, there can be no true legitimate debate.

Umm no.

It's factually true that items in ME2 are different and not "better" or "worse" in most cases, unlike ME1. The numbers speak for themselves.

And it's factually true that stats in ME2 are accompanied with bigger numbers than in ME1.

Again, people also keep relying on the perception that Mass Effect's stats were the end all be all when arguing in support of Mass Effect 2. Many of us want that level of mismanagement also at an evolved level....more coherent and efficient without sacrificing customization of skills and mods.

Customization of skills? I am 100% sure ME2 has the power evolution.
Customization of mods? How is the upgrade station of ME2 any different than any RPG system? You spend your points on various things, when you could spend them elsewhere. If you are a perfectionist who wasted three hours to scan every single planet in the game, then that's your problem. Not the system's.

"also keep relying on the perception that Mass Effect's stats were the end all be all when arguing in support of Mass Effect 2"

Sounds like a pretty silly assertion. I loved ME1 but I have no problem with admitting that it was very bad, gameplay-wise. Meaningless "stats" were only one of the several reasons the gameplay was broken, imo, yes. 

Really....stats had no effect in a mission? Inaccurate again. If I had a stabilizer, overheating cooler and ammunition that was much better against synthetics, whatever percentage that was, I was more successful than you using the exact same weapon....it enabled optimization. It would have no effect in Mass Effect 2, maybe, just because the mechanic systems that supported them were gutted out.

"Would have no effect in Mass Effect 2"?

What the hell are you on about. The weapon upgrades on which you invest your hard-earned points have a very big effect, which can only be compared to quite high level upgrades for ME1. Which are limited to three at max, by the way. As I said, the numbers speak for themselves.

As for ammo upgrades and your complaints about lack of customization, think again.
You can change your ammo type at any given time in ME2 if you have unlocked another one, and not only do they cause different amount of damage to different types of enemies, they actually cause different amount of damage based on protection types as well! 

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[sympathy4saren]

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

[Phaedon]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Stats were never gone, "buddy".

The meaningless stat upgrades of very low numbers are things of the past. Just take a look at the weapon customization of ME3. The real one.

But go ahead and troll about Call of Duty and Gears of War.
You may not have the chance to change stats that often there, (well, you can, in some cases), but they definitely hold more "stats" than old school RPGs that change the gameplay based on how you play.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[Tag1701]

For me, the essence of what makes a game an RPG, or a Role Playing Game, is how into the character and the world it immerses me, and how much I'm able to put myself into that character and that world. It's not just about how much I customize my character in stats, or how much I can customize my guns (I'm sorry, but I seriously do not miss the weapons and armor customization from the first game. Hurl sarcastic remarks at me if you'd like, but I was glad to see them go in ME2).

I feel that in terms of story, and in terms of playing my character: Shepard and making those decisions and interacting with those other people in that world, not to mention directly impacting events that are going to impact the entire galaxy, Mass Effect still stands up as an RPG. It's all about being pulled into that role. Let me share a few things with you, because I don't think any game has ever had the emotional effect on me that Mass Effect 2 had.

*Spoliers Ahead*

1. When I first encountered Tali leading her team to try and recover her man I was thrilled to see her, and when she refused to simply follow my lead at that point, that happiness turned almost instantly into a feeling of betrayal and hurt. I really felt these things.

2. The most profound moment I think I faced was when Ashley chewed me out for working with Cerberus. Again, you go from that joy to seeing a trusted former teamate to that instant betrayal and anger. That one really affected me. It gets worse though. It was immediately after that, when I returned to the ship and found out that if you don't feed them your fish die. So, I got chewed out by a friend, and went back to the Normandy to find that my fish were dead. I honestly just romed the ship for about a half an hour, unsure what to do. I stood in the airlock at one point for a moment or two wishing I could press the release.

3. When you find out what Tali's father is guilty of and she starts to break down, I felt so terrible. I tend toward the Renegade options because My Shep is the type to get things done, period, kind of a Jack Bauer type. When the paragon interupt came up, it was simply an automatic action to press the button and hug and comfort her in that moment, because I felt so bad. I didn't even think about the P/R aspect. She was hurting and that made me feel bad.

These are the types of moments that define this series for me. There are more, but these are the ones that stick out for me. And what are they if not Character driven, nay: Role driven moments. This is what an RPG is for me. As long as Bioware continues to deliver these kinds of moments, good and bad, in ME3 I will happilly lable it an RPG.

Just my thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong.

[sympathy4saren]

Phaedon wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Stats were never gone, "buddy".

The meaningless stat upgrades of very low numbers are things of the past. Just take a look at the weapon customization of ME3. The real one.

But go ahead and troll about Call of Duty and Gears of War.
You may not have the chance to change stats that often there, (well, you can, in some cases), but they definitely hold more "stats" than old school RPGs that change the gameplay based on how you play.

So the extensiveness is there, but more meaningful?

Wow...that's what I wanted. A positive evolution of ME1's system.

Btw...speaking my opinions. Don't like it? Tough. I'm not a blind fanboy like some

[Someone With Mass]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 août 2011 - 07:59 .

[littlezack]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Stats were never gone, "buddy".

The meaningless stat upgrades of very low numbers are things of the past. Just take a look at the weapon customization of ME3. The real one.

But go ahead and troll about Call of Duty and Gears of War.
You may not have the chance to change stats that often there, (well, you can, in some cases), but they definitely hold more "stats" than old school RPGs that change the gameplay based on how you play.

So the extensiveness is there, but more meaningful?

Wow...that's what I wanted. A positive evolution of ME1's system.

Btw...speaking my opinions. Don't like it? Tough. I'm not a blind fanboy like some

Congratulations, you have an opinion. Just like eveerybody else in this thread.

[Phaedon]

sympathy4saren wrote...
So the extensiveness is there, but more meaningful? 

Wow...that's what I wanted. A positive evolution of ME1's system.

What are you talking about?

Weapon customization is part by part, with multiple parts, and with of course no ammo types to get in the way. It's literally nothing like we have seen before.

Stat. Progression? The system is nearly identical to ME2's, but power evolutions happen more often and with more option.

Btw...speaking my opinions. Don't like it? Tough. I'm not a blind fanboy like some

Yes you are.

You are an elitist who constantly criticizes other franchises which you have probably not even played for no obvious reasons. 

The only one who seems to not like people speaking their opinions seems to definitely not be me. Because apparently that one calls others "blind fanboys" for wasting time on a proper argument which s/he doesn't even bother replying to.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

For once, you (Massy person) and I are on the same page.

Video-game elitists and RPG purists are only marginally more impressive than anime purists. And I say marginally because at least anime purists can pick up pieces of real language by osmosis.

[SpiffySquee]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

For once, you (Massy person) and I are on the same page.

Video-game elitists and RPG purists are only marginally more impressive than anime purists. And I say marginally because at least anime purists can pick up pieces of real language by osmosis.

Ok... a bit off topic, but I have to ask. What the heck is an anime purist? Never heard of them (though I'm sure I met one at some point) Are they people who don't like Naruto just becasue it is too main stream??

One piece?? that has more than 8 fans... So it's not cool enough for me:lol:

[littlezack]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

For once, you (Massy person) and I are on the same page.

Video-game elitists and RPG purists are only marginally more impressive than anime purists. And I say marginally because at least anime purists can pick up pieces of real language by osmosis.

Ok... a bit off topic, but I have to ask. What the heck is an anime purist? Never heard of them (though I'm sure I met one at some point) Are they people who don't like Naruto just becasue it is too main stream??

One piece?? that has more than 8 fans... So it's not cool enough for me:lol:

Pretty much.

[Savber100]

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

*claps*

While I agree that more meaningful/complex mechanics are great, it's frustrating to see people like s4s discern the intelligence of an individual through the games they play. How are you any different from the nagging parents that told kids that gaming is for dumb kids as they played stuff like Doom and Wolfenstein? Games are suppose to be entertaining. If you don't like FPSes, then fine but don't go dissing the players that just want to kick back and relax instead of sorting out endless lists of stats and inventories. 

[FlyingWalrus]

This song and dance again.

EDIT: But now I am glad I went back and did a little waltz, because I got to see Phaedon and others take Gatt9 and his logical gymnastics to the woodshed something fierce. Damn, son. Me gusta.

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 27 août 2011 - 11:58 .

[sympathy4saren]

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

Hardcore. No. I just don't want one of my favorite video games ruined by a different genre. Pretty simplistic.

As for the personal attack: I will respond to that.

I'm 6'2", 235 and well built. I'm a paralegal and i make $60,000 a year. I own my own home. Video gaming for me, like you, is a hobby. A fun one.

You, on the other hand...I'm sure it is your life, because deep down you know your existence sucks. I know I was mean....sorry....run along now and ask your mother to make you some good meatloaf.

[Gatt9]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

This song and dance again.

EDIT: But now I am glad I went back and did a little waltz, because I got to see Phaedon and others take Gatt9 and his logical gymnastics to the woodshed something fierce. Damn, son. Me gusta.

Not really,  In Exile's a challenge,  but Phaedon?

Gatt9 wrote...
Acdtually, what you've pretty consistently demonstrated is a major break in logic. It's really this simple...

Assert - A game with a story and decisions is an RPG
-Halo had a story
-Wing Commander 3 had decisions
-Halo is an FPS
-Wing Commander 3 is a Space-Sim
-Contradiction


Your arguements fail quickly, because logically they don't work once you leave the Mass-Effect universe. My arguements OTOH, pass the test. My definition is simple, can it be translated to PnP. If it cannot, it's not an RPG. Any example you come up with is going to be a LARPS, not an RPG.

Lolno.

Your assertion is the one that you like to see, just like you only see what you want to see in RPGs.

What I call an RPG in my opinion is a game that allows you a great deal of control over the: a) creation of your own character and his or her personality, The development of this personality as well as the plot by allowing choices, c) Allowing the player to develop how that character thinks or fights, etc.

Let's see what YOU think of RPGs.

"Defines a character whose success/failures occur independent of the Player."

-The Sims have statistical progresson, inventory and success/failures occur independent of the Player.
-Syberia has an inventory. All items are useful.
-Call of Duty has loot.
-In backgammon, success/failures occur independent of the Player.

Now read that carefully.  Now watch this,  I'll narrow it down some so it become obvious...

My definition is simple, can it be translated to PnP. If it cannot, it's not an RPG.

To which the response was...

Let's see what YOU think of RPGs.

"Defines a character whose success/failures occur independent of the Player."

-The Sims have statistical progresson, inventory and success/failures occur independent of the Player.
-Syberia has an inventory. All items are useful.
-Call of Duty has loot.
-In backgammon, success/failures occur independent of the Player.

Do you know Logic at all?  Generally speaking,  to refute an assertion,  you actually need to talk about something associated with the assertion.  Phaedon completely ignores the assertion and starts talking about something completely different.  His reponse might as well have been "I like Bananna's" for all he proves.  It's pretty much the definition of a Strawman,  he completely ignores what I said.

Which pretty much describes all of his responses thus far.  Go read carefully,  go Gatt -> Phaedon through the thread,  each and every time he'll ignore what I said and come up with some quite literally bizarre.

@In Exile

What you're missing is that people are asserting "Story and Decisions" as the necessary condition.  They're asserting "If a game has Story and Decisions it's an RPG".  Which formally is translating to

If X and Y then Z

as well as

if Z then X and Y

They're stating that X and Y are all that's necessary to obtain Z,  and that Z is comprised of X and Y.  While we both realize that it's a case of "If X and Y then maybe Z",  that's not the statement they are putting forth.  Most especially Phaedon.

What you're saying would be true if the assertion were "If a game has a story OR decisions it's an RPG",  or if they were saying "If a game has AT LEAST a story and decisions it's an RPG",  or if they were saying "A game with stats can be an RPG".  But they're not even asserting that,  they're asserting that the stats are irrelevant to the quality RPG,  and that a Story and Decisions are necessary today,  but stats are optional.

As such,  it's a statement of necessity,  and logically it fails.

[littlezack]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

Hardcore. No. I just don't want one of my favorite video games ruined by a different genre. Pretty simplistic.

Mass Effect was always a third-person shooter. There's no different genre at work here - it always had some GoW in it.

And he's not personally attacking you, he's attacking the concept of a 'hardcore gamer' in general, that an activity where you're not even required to move from a chair can be considered 'hardcore'. You're the one taking it far too personal. Nobody cares that you're - allegedly - a musclebound paralegal. Good for you. 

[sympathy4saren]

Savber100 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

*claps*

While I agree that more meaningful/complex mechanics are great, it's frustrating to see people like s4s discern the intelligence of an individual through the games they play. How are you any different from the nagging parents that told kids that gaming is for dumb kids as they played stuff like Doom and Wolfenstein? Games are suppose to be entertaining. If you don't like FPSes, then fine but don't go dissing the players that just want to kick back and relax instead of sorting out endless lists of stats and inventories. 

And if you don't like it, find another game to play where you can do that. Gears of War 3 is coming out soon. No what I mean there, Buster?

Lol. Soon the Codex and the Journal will go....too boring and interferes with the pew pew.

[littlezack]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Or you could just deal with it, because stats are back, buddy. We just want to ensure they are as extensive as can be.

Either that, or enjoy Gears of War when it comes out. Your pick.

Wow.

I guess you're one of those guys who think you're hardcore or better than other people just because you're playing a damn game.

That must be the most pathetic thing I've heard in my entire life.

Let me tell you something. Doing parkour is hardcore. Skydiving is hardcore. Driving a tank is hardcore. Even surfing is hardcore.

Sitting on your fat ass and playing a video game? That's nothing.

*claps*

While I agree that more meaningful/complex mechanics are great, it's frustrating to see people like s4s discern the intelligence of an individual through the games they play. How are you any different from the nagging parents that told kids that gaming is for dumb kids as they played stuff like Doom and Wolfenstein? Games are suppose to be entertaining. If you don't like FPSes, then fine but don't go dissing the players that just want to kick back and relax instead of sorting out endless lists of stats and inventories. 

And if you don't like it, find another game to play where you can do that. Gears of War 3 is coming out soon. No what I mean there, Buster?

And stop acting like it's impossible to like both Gears of War and Mass Effect at the same time. Seriously, that's just childish.

[Someone With Mass]

sympathy4saren wrote...

And if you don't like it, find another game to play where you can do that. Gears of War 3 is coming out soon. No what I mean there, Buster?

Lol. Soon the Codex and the Journal will go....too boring and interferes with the pew pew.

Take your own advice and go drool over bland fantasy RPG #567 Skyrim instead.

[SpiffySquee]

This thread was not designed for your personal bickering. I really enjoy some of the debate on this thread and I would rather it not be locked due to personal attacks on both sides. Attack the argument. Attack the presentation of the argument. But never attack the person.

[Balek-Vriege]

Someone With Mass wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

And if you don't like it, find another game to play where you can do that. Gears of War 3 is coming out soon. No what I mean there, Buster?

Lol. Soon the Codex and the Journal will go....too boring and interferes with the pew pew.

Take your own advice and go drool over bland fantasy RPG #567 Skyrim instead.

Actually Skyrim cuts attributes out of Elder Scrolls...

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 28 août 2011 - 12:57 .