1002 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

littlezack wrote...
If he valued life, I don't think he'd go around killing people at all, which isn't an option in either game, but whatever.

You can't measure immersion, and it shouldn't be part of some rubric to define an RPG. I can get ;immersed' in Saint's Row 2, sure as hell doesn't make it an RPG.

He tries to kill as few as possible, while the soldier who was renegade would murder everyone if it got the job done. Being immersed and allowing extreme customization is technically a characteristic of an RPG, but Saint's Row only allows appearance customization. I think being able to craft your characters traits and abilities is what gets you into the role of that character, followed by choices and then finally, your appearance.

[littlezack]

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

[Dionkey]

littlezack wrote...

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

I was unaware of this, could you give me an example?

[littlezack]

You can upgrade fighting ablities, gun stuff, et cetera. It hasn't been seen in action yet, just mentioned.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!

Actually this might make COD more appealing to me. It wouldn't make it an absolute RPG right to the letter but it would definetly be a step forward for the franchise. We likely won't see any innovations of this for some time because the Devs of COD are making huge heaps of cash for each iteration in the COD franchise. The way they probably see it is "why fix what ain't broken?" The only other developer besides Bioware who I think has the right idea is Epic. Cliffy B said before that he thinks the "future of shooters is RPGs" I think thats good way of looking at things.

[Dionkey]

littlezack wrote...

You can upgrade fighting ablities, gun stuff, et cetera. It hasn't been seen in action yet, just mentioned.

If it's a stat system, sure, why not? Just because it has a huge free-roam does not mean it cannot qualify as an RPG. The choices in Mass Effect are simply renown because of how many there are. In reality, games like GTA IV have given you moral choices, yet they are not regarded as an RPG. Again, this is just my opinion, so don't take this as if I am hammering this into stone.

[azerSheppard]

Dionkey wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

I was unaware of this, could you give me an example?

COD has perks, does it rpg?


Maybe i'll start off a meme:huh:

[Dionkey]

azerSheppard wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

I was unaware of this, could you give me an example?

COD has perks, does it rpg?


Maybe i'll start off a meme:huh:

You don't really play a role in multiplayer, you just sort of shoot things, so there is no character.

Modifié par Dionkey, 19 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[azerSheppard]

Dionkey wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

I was unaware of this, could you give me an example?

COD has perks, does it rpg?


Maybe i'll start off a meme:huh:

You don't really play a role in multiplayer, you just sort of shoot things, so there is no character.

So you mean that if you play a role, it's an RPG? So if all the online players role play during gameplay, it's an rpg?

[Candidate 88766]

Dionkey wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Saint's Row 3 will have trait costumization. Is it an RPG?

I was unaware of this, could you give me an example?

COD has perks, does it rpg?


Maybe i'll start off a meme:huh:

You don't really play a role in multiplayer, you just sort of shoot things, so there is no character.

You play the role of a soldier. RPGs are different in that you play a role that you define and customise, through abilities/power customiztion or, as in the case of ME, through your dialogue choices and behaviour towards characters. You play a role in every game, its just that in RPGs you have a lot more control over that role and the game is about how you create your role. Thats why both ME1 and ME2 are RPGs, at least partially.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 19 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[Dionkey]

azerSheppard wrote...
So you mean that if you play a role, it's an RPG? So if all the online players role play during gameplay, it's an rpg?

If Call of Duty would have defined your character rather than a faceless husk (I mean, what can you really customize aside form your guns?), than it would be an RPG.

[JayhartRIC]

I feel that rpg's have to be about character choices and their effect on the story. If stats and character customization make an rpg, then NBA 2k11 and Force Unleashed are rpg's.

[Dionkey]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
You play the role of a soldier. RPGs are different in that you play a role that you define and customise, through abilities/power customiztion or, as in the case of ME, through your dialogue choices and behaviour towards characters. You play a role in every game, its just that in RPGs you have a lot more control over that role and the game is about how you create your role. Thats why both ME1 and ME2 are RPGs, at least partially.

I believ story and character have to exist for it to be an RPG, but playing a role in a story does not define an RPG. Technically every game with a character and a story is a RPG. But to actually define the mechanics of an RPG down to the very precise customization of a character, is what truly makes an RPG, at least in my mind.

[azerSheppard]

Dionkey wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...
So you mean that if you play a role, it's an RPG? So if all the online players role play during gameplay, it's an rpg?

If Call of Duty would have defined your character rather than a faceless husk (I mean, what can you really customize aside form your guns?), than it would be an RPG.

Link from Zelda 2, is not defined either, he never talks or develops aside from skills, the only char dev that occurs is objective based (go do this go do that) yet that game is an actionRPG, explain it to me how that works?

[CroGamer002]

Chewin3 wrote...

Fenris_13 wrote...

Ever since BW said that they wanted COD players, I just can't consider ME3 a RPG anymore.

Well, COD is a RPG.

- You play as a fictional character.

- You kill fake people.

- Certain weapons deals set amounts of damage. And hitting on certain parts on the enemies body deals certain amount of damage, which adds role playing experience.

- There are maps.

- The enviroment is fictional andgrounded in a story

But anyway, my point being is that this is probably why the developers are thinking when they are saying that they "want the COD players". Of course the difference are also a mile wide, but if we only bridge them we get a glorious RPG and a "welcoming" experience.

Also lots of stats, weapons and mods!

[Candidate 88766]

Dionkey wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
You play the role of a soldier. RPGs are different in that you play a role that you define and customise, through abilities/power customiztion or, as in the case of ME, through your dialogue choices and behaviour towards characters. You play a role in every game, its just that in RPGs you have a lot more control over that role and the game is about how you create your role. Thats why both ME1 and ME2 are RPGs, at least partially.

I believ story and character have to exist for it to be an RPG, but playing a role in a story does not define an RPG. Technically every game with a character and a story is a RPG. But to actually define the mechanics of an RPG down to the very precise customization of a character, is what truly makes an RPG, at least in my mind.

Thats what I was trying to say. In any game you play a role. What separates RPGs is that you have much more control over your role - you can customise it, whereas in other genres you simply given a role to play. RPGs allow you to customise your role through customizing powers or equipment, or by allowing you to choose how you behave and interact with characters and the story. Bioware chose this second approach with the Mass Effect games. While there is some, albeit limited, customization of equipment and powers, your ability to customise the role you play - what essentially separates RPGs from other games - is through dialogue choices. 

Both Mass Effect games allow you to interact with the story and the characters and thus craft your character. That is what role-playing is - not just being given a role like in any other genre of game, but being able to customise the role you have been given. Some RPGs give you a very loose role - Oblivion tells you that you're an escaped prisoner and thats it - whereas ME has a relatively defined character with Shepard that still allows you to customise the role somewhat. When you get down to it, thats what separates RPGs from other games, what essentially makes a game an RPG - not just being given a role to play, but being able to customize that role and play it your own way. Due to technical limitations, most RPGs have to let you do this through customizing equipment or powers. Mass Effect went with a different approach, allowing you to interact in conversations in a way that wasn't possible on the previous generation of technology - not without reducing conversations to big blocks of text.

Both ME1 and ME2 allow you to customize your role through your dialogue choices. While they may not have all the features commonly seen in RPGs, they are both focused on allowing the player to create their own Shepard and customise the role they play. Neither of them is a true, old-school RPG but at the same time they are both RPGs to some extent. Fundamentally, they are both about customizing your role and that is what separates RPGs from other games. 

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 19 août 2011 - 06:32 .

[SpiffySquee]

Dionkey wrote...
 Well someone who values like would be idealistic, so they would be a Paragon Infiltrator. An RPG does not need you to make story-based choices for it to be a role-playing-game, you just need it to be immersive enough to take you into the role of that character. In that sense, ME2 took out a lot of the player choices and customization; which is why many do not consider it a role-playing-game.

I am sorry but I can't agree with this at all. In order for a game to be an RPG, you don't have to have control of the character and their decisions, but only be immersed in the character? By that definition, Batman The Dark Night was an RPG experience. I had no control over the Joker or the way he acted, but I was certainly immersed in the character.

Explain how playing Tidus in FF10 is an RPG. You can't control how he acts, or what he says. You can't change him or pretend to be him. You can only choose his abilities, hit his enemies and watch his story. Where is the role play?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Just like any game, either you are a great sweet talker, or a great intimidator, or a mix that is not as good at both. If you want to do both, then you will not be as good at any one. High level checks are high level because not everyone can do them. If you want to sweet talk Jack into loyalty, you had better have had a lot of practice at sweet talking and understanding how people feel. You can't have that expertise if you spend half your time bullying and intimidating people.

What about a Shepard that is kind to his friends, teammates and innocents but pretty ruthless when it comes to anything else? Why can't that Shepard persuade them to calm down?

Because I don¨t want to dance around this for too long I will just say that people complain about the persusaion system because it restricts paragade/renegon for no good reason. I also never heard it used as a reason for why ME is not a RPG.

hypocritical? I think you just don't understand their is a big difference. One involves a story. The other involves how your character behaves and reacts in said story. One you have control of. One you don't. In order to tell a good story, you must force characters to follow the story. This does not mean the game cannot give you options in how you behave or feel about the people around you.
The point you are missing is that the game has to railroad you to a point to tell a good story. It does not have to make Shepard explore his motivations in order to have character growth. I already stated several times how to give your Shepard character growth over the course of the games.

And to tell a good story you don't want the main character to never show emotions.
[ DA2 SPOILER ALERT!!!!]
Imagine Leandra's death in DA2 and we never got to see Hawke's reaction to and how he acts back in the mansion. It would not have the same emotional impact on the player if it did not take control over Hawke and always made him pretty depressed. But in the end it ended up making a good scene.

You did praise LOTSB and said it did a good job by having Shepard show emotions while giving decent options that cover a wide range (so to speak) and therefor does its best to avoid annoying people. Which is why I think that having a scene like that happen with a good set of options for how to have Shepard react is a great boon to the story while the lack of such is a major drawback.

[littlezack]

My main problem is with people who act like the RPG genre has always had some hard and fast rule that defines, when, even in its earliest days, the term was always broad. You have games like Gauntlet that are pretty much just straight action and leveling - RPG. You have games like Legend of Zelda where you can't control the characters personality and he doesn't even level up - RPG. Even in the NES days, you could find 'RPGs' that focus on certain aspects or ignore them altogether, and still go by the title 'RPG'. But some people act like the genre's blurry line is some recent thing. It really isn't.

[SpiffySquee]

Lizardviking wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Just like any game, either you are a great sweet talker, or a great intimidator, or a mix that is not as good at both. If you want to do both, then you will not be as good at any one. High level checks are high level because not everyone can do them. If you want to sweet talk Jack into loyalty, you had better have had a lot of practice at sweet talking and understanding how people feel. You can't have that expertise if you spend half your time bullying and intimidating people.

What about a Shepard that is kind to his friends, teammates and innocents but pretty ruthless when it comes to anything else? Why can't that Shepard persuade them to calm down?

Because I don¨t want to dance around this for too long I will just say that people complain about the persusaion system because it restricts paragade/renegon for no good reason. I also never heard it used as a reason for why ME is not a RPG.

hypocritical? I think you just don't understand their is a big difference. One involves a story. The other involves how your character behaves and reacts in said story. One you have control of. One you don't. In order to tell a good story, you must force characters to follow the story. This does not mean the game cannot give you options in how you behave or feel about the people around you.
The point you are missing is that the game has to railroad you to a point to tell a good story. It does not have to make Shepard explore his motivations in order to have character growth. I already stated several times how to give your Shepard character growth over the course of the games.

And to tell a good story you don't want the main character to never show emotions.
[ DA2 SPOILER ALERT!!!!]
*snip*

You did praise LOTSB and said it did a good job by having Shepard show emotions while giving decent options that cover a wide range (so to speak) and therefor does its best to avoid annoying people. Which is why I think that having a scene like that happen with a good set of options for how to have Shepard react is a great boon to the story while the lack of such is a major drawback.

Sorry, had to skip the DA2 part since I'm going to do a Blind LP of it at some point. Shepard shows emotion all the time. There are plenty of times where she is pissed, or sad, or happy. What in the world are people talking about when they say Shepard never shows emotion? What about when they smack Zaeed around, or Archer? What about when they spend time with their LI? What about the scene after Arrival where they hang their head in sorrow? What about when she got pissed and told Tali and and Legion to Shut the hell up and fall in? What about when Udina grounded Shepard and Shepard told him off?

The only thing Shepard does not do on a regular bases is talk about herself. And I explained why. Don't get me wrong, I loved LOTSB, and I look forward to more things like that, but it is very difficult to do, and is always risky.

[lolnoobs]

Guys, The ME series is a Third Person Shooter that has some very light RPG elements. I'd consider the first ME a somewhat action RPG, but ME2 is just a third person shooter. Just because you have a couple of small C&C moments doesn't make it an RPG.

RPG JUST MEANS YOU PLAY A ROLE LOLOL
Ok, that means every single game ever made is a RPG. Including Pong. So, no RPG doesn't just mean you play a role.

Modifié par lolnoobs, 19 août 2011 - 07:17 .

[lolnoobs]

Arcian wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME

Fabulous.

So! Every game ever made is a RPG. SINCE YOU PLAY A ROLE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Hey, RTS just mean Real time strategy. You have to have strategy in ME LOL SO IT R RTS LOLOL.

Hey, Racing games just mean you can drive vehicles around, LOLOL VEHICLES R IN ME SO IT R RACING LOL

Hey, Adventure games are just games with an adventure, well, you have an adventure in ME. So it's an Adventure game!

Hey, Simulation games just simulate things! LIKE ME SIMULATE SPACE COMBAT ACTION LOL SO IT R SIM GAME.

<3:wizard:

Modifié par lolnoobs, 19 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

SpiffySquee wrote...
The only thing Shepard does not do on a regular bases is talk about herself. And I explained why. Don't get me wrong, I loved LOTSB, and I look forward to more things like that, but it is very difficult to do, and is always risky.

Call it poor communication on my bad (and I would guess for alot of others but I don't speak for them). But when I mean "Don't show emotion" this is what I mean. Shepard don't react to anything happening to him on a personal level. And that is what I hate. Having a single scene like in LOTSB goes a long way to counter that. Granted it of-course needs to be handled in a good manner but I think that can be said for any form of story telling.