1002 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

wizardryforever wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Great video Squee, very fair and provides both sides of the argument. However, I do not agree. The difference between table-top RPG's and games is that the rules and mechanics of a table-top RPG can be edited with the power of imagination, this does not apply to video games. True role-playing is not displayed in Mass Effect 2 because you can not choose whatever you want. In fact, many times, the choices given to you are not what you had in mind.

To keep you in the character and to stop you from clinging to these few choices so much, they allow you to customize your character to the brim. Are you an Infiltrator that values life, capable of sneaking around and taking enemies out from a distance? Or are you a soldier, that has a trigger finger and is just there to get the job done by any means necessary? The lack of a skill tree and inventory takes you away from this experience and makes you feel like you are simply choosing a fork in the road rather than shaping your own quest. People want to forge every part of their character, not just the story-driven choices they make. Couple this with the vast exploration from ME1 and ME2 feels quite empty, thus pulling you out of the role-playing experience. 

First off, how does a Infiltrator who takes out people from a distance 'value life'?

And by that definition, most RPGs aren't RPGs at all. Games like Final Fantasy, Lost Odyssey, Wild Arms; games that give you no choice over your character's personality and offer only linear progression - by that definition, they're not RPGs.

Mass Effect 1 didn't have a skill tree, either, and if we're talking abot 'emptiness' I'd say the 99% empty planets you 'explored' in ME1 have the market cornered.

That's exactly what Squee said in his video, and I agree.  If you can't role-play in the game, then it isn't an RPG.  If you can't shape and change your character based around your vision of that character within the context of the story, then it isn't an RPG.  Call me crazy, but I kinda think you need role-playing to make a role-playing game.

Yeah, but this is only when a game allows you to do so and that gives the player enough option to express themselfs, if you're just projecting your own opinion on certain characters within a story, well that says nothing about game, and can be done in any media with a story.

The keyword is consequence, the world needs to react to your character and how he/she develops (if at all) otherwise the entire concept of roleplaying is meaningless.

The irony of all this, is that even though these games are called RPG, there is absolutly no way to characterize your Shepard, the only thing that even remotly comes close is the Paragon/Renegade system, and even that does nothing beyond determing which dialogue options you get.

Bottom line - the Mass effect series are very clumsy when it comes to Role-play, on the one hand, the player is blank-slate while on the other hand, choices, dialouge and actions don't impact the character or the universe, Making the player utterly pointless as a role-player.

[SpiffySquee]

Fixers0 wrote...

Yeah, but this is only when a game allows you to do so and that gives the player enough option to express themselfs, if you're just projecting your own opinion on certain characters within a story, well that says nothing about game, and can be done in any media with a story.

The keyword is consequence, the world needs to react to your character and how he/she develops (if at all) otherwise the entire concept of roleplaying is meaningless.

The irony of all this, is that even though these games are called RPG, there is absolutly no way to characterize your Shepard, the only thing that even remotly comes close is the Paragon/Renegade system, and even that does nothing beyond determing which dialogue options you get.

Bottom line - the Mass effect series are very clumsy when it comes to Role-play, on the one hand, the player is blank-slate while on the other hand, choices, dialouge and actions don't impact the character or the universe, Making the player utterly pointless as a role-player.

What do you mean it has no impact on the world? Saving the Batarian's life with medigel has an impact on him. Convincing the Elcor to stop bulling the guy on pilgrimage  has an impact on both of those characters. What you say and do have an impact on your LI. What you say to TIM has an impact on the way he treats you in the conversation.

Or do you expect every choice to have some major change? Why do people think the only important choices in roleplaying are the ones that have some major impact on the world? Every choice you make defines your shepard and most show an immediate reaction form the people around you. There are plenty of  consequence for your action. Your complain is that they just are not world changing, and why should they be? So I help Lia Viel when she was harassed for pick pocketing. It helps define who my Shepard is, but why should there be any change to the world around me, other than she says thanks?

Not to mention, there are plenty of changes depending on your actions. People you meet in the second game if you did not kill them, leaders of Krogan tribes, Who the council is, How Tali treats you when you first meet again.... The effects of ME1 on ME2 are greater than any other game series I can think of.

Name one game that has as many long lasting effects as the Mass Effect saga.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 19 août 2011 - 10:33 .

[Gatt9]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

RPGs - the focus is on player choice over the role. Every game allows you to play a role, RPGs are defined by allowing players to customize the role they play. There are two ways to do this: allow the player to customise abilities, attributes and equipment; or, allow the player to choose how they interact with characters and the story as a whole. Mass Effect takes the second approach - you customize your role by choosing how you interact with characters, and by making choices that will (hopefully) affect the plot.

RPGs - heavy emphasis on customizing/personalising your role in the game. Other genres - typically just give players a role to play. Some games that aren't RPGs allow the player's role to be customized, but they don't place as much emphasis on it as RPGs do.

There's alot of problems with the Mass Effect approach and it's relation to RPG's,  it's pretty much the digital implementation of the video I linked to on page 1.

In Mass Effect 2,  the Character's not defined.  You are Shepherd.  But who Shepherd is,  is never defined.  He's not a sharpshooter,  he's not a diplomat,  he's not good,  he's not bad,  he's just amorphous.  It's like me saying to any one of you...

"You are now Bob,  assume his Role,  do what he does".

None of you can do it,  because I didn't define Bob,  the Role is empty.  This is ME2.  "You are Shepherd",  except you know nothing about him,  because he is undefined.  What everyone keeps claiming is Roleplaying,  is self-insertion,  it's LARPSing,  you're pretending you are Shepherd,  not that you've assumed the Role of Shepherd.

As such,  it's not an RPG,  it's closest approximation would be a LARPS,  which while it is a form of Roleplaying,  it's not an RPG,  and I'll stand by my statement that almost none of the people posting here would join a LARPS.

Further,  the assertion that ME series,  most especially ME2 is an RPG because you make decisions is the height of hypocrisy.  You don't make decisions in ME2,  nothing you do makes any difference.  Be nice,  be mean,  be good,  be bad,  in almost every situation you get the exact same outcome.  No matter how good you are Jack will never be offended,  Grunt won't mind if you talk your way out of fights or be humble.  No matter how bad you are Tali and Samara will never conflict.  No one will ever refuse you anything because of the choices you made,  such as Tali will be just as loyal if you support Cerberus as if you opposed them.

So even if you try and use the "Choices" defense for defining ME series as an RPG,  it's still not an RPG because nothing changes.  Even the choices you made in ME1 are irrelevant,  because it's just emails with no real impact.  Nothing you do matters,  so nothing you do defines a Role.

Just like when I was the paragon of virtue,  and kicked a unarmed man off a building in cold blood,  it didn't matter,  because the game didn't recognize me as having a Role.

Also, great video Squee.

While you are correct about CRPGs using stats to disable godmodding, I wouldn't say that that is true with how western RPGs were born. If you look into it, essentially the first RPGs seemed to be nothing but copy/pastes of other types of games (yes, that includes rulesets!), but now with the ability to describe your character's actions

You really should avoid talking about things you don't know about...

Bard's Tale - leveling gave ability point increases,  magic classes could switch between classes,  mana based system with real time regeneration (The first of it's kind),  damage based on character levels and not weapons.

Might & Magic - Magic system based upon gems,  multiple ways to change attributes post creation,  the first open world RPG ever,  Character classes not present in PnP RPG's at the time,  almost completely non-linear.

Gateway to Apshai - Real Time RPG complete with time restrictions,  no classes,  no real magic.

Ultima series - Attributes were essentially meaningless,  narrative driven gameplay,  weapons had little differentiation,  almost completely non-linear in some games.

Telengard - One class that used both weapons and magic equally well.

The first RPG's were very different from each other,  and from PnP systems in singificant ways. 

It's funny because it's true. The supposed most important element of RPGs, statistical progression is definitely not gone from ME2.

Once again...You kill a YMIR at level 2 and that's about as hard as it gets.  Those statistics are completely pointless if you can kill everything in the game at level 2 with starter weapons.

Even if the arguments were actually good, all of those debates start from people supporting the stereotype that if a game is a shooter and not an RPG, then that's a bad thing. That it makes a bad game.

You can have them explain it as eloquently as they want, about how "mainstream" shooters are, and how shooters are like checkers to chess when compared to RPG.

Well...
I will have yet to see one of them complain about Mass Effect not being an adventure game, because you know, that's after all definitely not a mainstream genre, and one that requires much more thinking than the rest.

It would also be good if you'd avoid telling lies...

1.  People didn't say that Shooters are bad,  they said that claiming Shooter gameplay is now what RPG's are is bad.

2.  It's not "Shooters are like checkers to chess",  it's...

"I could write computer-checkers,  I could call it Chess,  but it still wouldn't be Chess.  Similiarly,  calling a TPS an RPG doesn't make it an RPG."

3.  Now would be a *really* good time for you to realize that Tomb Raider and Uncharted are classified as Adventure games...

Modifié par Gatt9, 19 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[Dionkey]

Phaedon wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

Guys, The ME series is a Third Person Shooter that has some very light RPG elements. I'd consider the first ME a somewhat action RPG, but ME2 is just a third person shooter. Just because you have a couple of small C&C moments doesn't make it an RPG.

RPG JUST MEANS YOU PLAY A ROLE LOLOL
Ok, that means every single game ever made is a RPG. Including Pong. So, no RPG doesn't just mean you play a role.

The Sims 3 has a party inventory.

TS3 has more stats than your common RPG.

TS3 has more character traits than your average RPG.

TS3 has a more interesting plot than your average RPG.

TS3 has stats that affect your success, even in fights yes.

TS3 has more sidemissions than your average RPG.

TS3 has statistical progression.

TS3 allows you to create a much more complex character than most RPGs do.

TS3 allows more customization than more RPGs do.

TS3 has NPCs.

TS3 has XP.

TS3 doesn't have an actual branching plot.

TS3 is a simulation game, not an RPG.

Actually, simulation and RPG's are not far apart. The Sims is just about playing the role of another person.

[asindre]

Fixers0 wrote...
The keyword is consequence, the world needs to react to your character and how he/she develops (if at all) otherwise the entire concept of roleplaying is meaningless.

How the world reacts to you choices is not roleplaying. How your character reacts to the world is roleplaying. An example: Your character has to kill a robber. It may not do anything to the world but it could be very hard for you character, especially if he's never killed anyone before.

[Dionkey]

Arcian wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So! Every game ever made is a RPG. SINCE YOU PLAY A ROLE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Hey, RTS just mean Real time strategy. You have to have strategy in ME LOL SO IT R RTS LOLOL.

Hey, Racing games just mean you can drive vehicles around, LOLOL VEHICLES R IN ME SO IT R RACING LOL

Hey, Adventure games are just games with an adventure, well, you have an adventure in ME. So it's an Adventure game!

Hey, Simulation games just simulate things! LIKE ME SIMULATE SPACE COMBAT ACTION LOL SO IT R SIM GAME.

<3:wizard:

Really? The guy brought up some good points, posting a reaction image like we are on /v/ is just obnoxious.

[Rockworm503]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Honestly I don't care if it is labeled a RPG

This.. The more this argumeng goes on the more I want RPG as a title to simply go away.

[asindre]

Gatt9 wrote...

You really should avoid talking about things you don't know about...

Like arguing about points from a video you haven't seen:P

[Gatt9]

didymos1120 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

He certainly does. The odd part is, he refuses to watch Squee's video while making very broad generalizations about its contents. Then in the very same thread he writes a long-winded post regarding the state of RPGs. Why does he expect anyone to care about his opinions when he refuses to extend the same courtesy to others? It's baffling.

That bolded bit there is all Gatt9 really cares about: posting the same lectures on the "Twu meaning of 'RPG'" and his dire prophecies for the game industry over and over and over.  Any pretext will do.  Like Terror_K, he's basically a single-issue poster, only he doesn't constantly create new threads to do it in.

1.  I'm not wasting 10 minutes of my life to watch a video of the same defense I've been reading for weeks.  The presentation is irrelevant,  making "The story makes it an RPG!  Any game with a story is an RPG!" in a video doesn't make it any more true than writing the text.

2.  If you consider 14 lines of text "Long winded" then it becomes apparent why Bioware keeps reducing the amount of text in their games.

3.  Should I post the lyrics of a lady gaga song as a response to "This is an RPG because it has a story!!!" instead?  What exactly do you think the response to that statement should be? 

4.  Now would be a really good time for you to notice that July was down 26%.  It's not a prophecy when the numbers show it.

5.  I'm not a "Single-issue" poster,  I intentionally avoid trolling.  I don't post in positive threads to derail them,  I'm not here to thread-crap.  Plus,  if you go through my posts,  you'll find I do post in threads that interest me on completely different topics.  Of course,  you are well aware of that,  because it was just last week we were arguing back and forth about whether or not Multiplayer was going in,  which oddly enough...it's a different issue!

[Dionkey]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
 Well someone who values like would be idealistic, so they would be a Paragon Infiltrator. An RPG does not need you to make story-based choices for it to be a role-playing-game, you just need it to be immersive enough to take you into the role of that character. In that sense, ME2 took out a lot of the player choices and customization; which is why many do not consider it a role-playing-game.

I am sorry but I can't agree with this at all. In order for a game to be an RPG, you don't have to have control of the character and their decisions, but only be immersed in the character? By that definition, Batman The Dark Night was an RPG experience. I had no control over the Joker or the way he acted, but I was certainly immersed in the character.

Explain how playing Tidus in FF10 is an RPG. You can't control how he acts, or what he says. You can't change him or pretend to be him. You can only choose his abilities, hit his enemies and watch his story. Where is the role play?

Being in control of the plot is not being immersed. Feeling like you have control over that characters appearance and qualities is being immersed. Just because you can choose 2 paths in which the story goes does not mean that the game is an RPG. The reason this doesn't work as an RPG element is because these are pre-determined reactions. There are many times when Shepard says something that just isn't logical. For example, when talking to the VS, the things he says are nothing like I would have said. I would have fully explained to them and convinced them why. The game does this so it justifys the progression of story. In reality, those choices are false illusions. You still cannot control the main plot, you can simply choose one of two outcomes.

[asindre]

Dionkey wrote...
Really? The guy brought up some good points, posting a reaction image like we are on /v/ is just obnoxious.

That was good points? I'd hate to see bad points:?

[Dionkey]

asindre wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Really? The guy brought up some good points, posting a reaction image like we are on /v/ is just obnoxious.

That was good points? I'd hate to see bad points:?

They may have had a bit of energy put into them, but they were legitimate points. Posting "LOL BUTTHURT" is really immature. If you disagree with someone, point out why.

[SpiffySquee]

Gatt9 wrote...

Also, great video Squee.

While you are correct about CRPGs using stats to disable godmodding, I wouldn't say that that is true with how western RPGs were born. If you look into it, essentially the first RPGs seemed to be nothing but copy/pastes of other types of games (yes, that includes rulesets!), but now with the ability to describe your character's actions

You really should avoid talking about things you don't know about...

HAHAHAHAAH!! Oh please stop! I can't breath! You, the guy who said he wasn't even going to watch the video and then proceeded to tell my why I was wrong in said video, just told someone they should not talk about things they don't know! 

Story make it RPG??

Actually, I stated in the video that stories make it harder to RPG... but you knew that right? Cause you know exactly what my video was about!

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 19 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[asindre]

Gatt9 wrote...
1.  I'm not wasting 10 minutes of my life to watch a video of the same defense I've been reading for weeks.  The presentation is irrelevant,  making "The story makes it an RPG!  Any game with a story is an RPG!" in a video doesn't make it any more true than writing the text.

Gatt9 wrote...

You really should avoid talking about things you don't know about...

[lolnoobs]

asindre wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Really? The guy brought up some good points, posting a reaction image like we are on /v/ is just obnoxious.

That was good points? I'd hate to see bad points:?

Dionkey wrote...
They may have had a bit of energy put into
them, but they were legitimate points. Posting "LOL BUTTHURT" is really
immature. If you disagree with someone, point out why.

I could post an elaborate explanation why ME is not an RPG. But after reading the same things "ME is an rpg because you play a role" "ME is an rpg because it has (meaningless) choice and consequence" over and over again, i don't bother.

Modifié par lolnoobs, 19 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[SpiffySquee]

lolnoobs wrote...

asindre wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Really? The guy brought up some good points, posting a reaction image like we are on /v/ is just obnoxious.

That was good points? I'd hate to see bad points:?

Dionkey wrote...
They may have had a bit of energy put into
them, but they were legitimate points. Posting "LOL BUTTHURT" is really
immature. If you disagree with someone, point out why.

I could post an elaborate explanation why ME is not an RPG. But after reading the same things "ME is an rpg because you play a role" "ME is an rpg because it has (meaningless) choice and consequence" over and over again, i don't bother.

Ah... another person who hasn't even seen the video and somehow magically knows what it is all about.... You guys should open up a psychic hot line... you would make millions!!

Well, except for the fact that you are so far off from what the video talked about that it is a little sad....

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 19 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[asindre]

lolnoobs wrote...
I could post an elaborate explanation why ME is not an RPG. But after reading the same things "ME is an rpg because you play a role" "ME is an rpg because it has (meaningless) choice and consequence" over and over again, i don't bother.

Well posting real explanations usually help more than overreacting

[Rockworm503]

Gatt9 wrote...

If your going to ignore the video and make up your own mind what its about than no one should take you seriously.

[Rockworm503]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Objection: Most peole do not roleplay Shepard. They're metagaming.

I pity those people.

[Rockworm503]

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!

would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Gatt9 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

RPGs - the focus is on player choice over the role. Every game allows you to play a role, RPGs are defined by allowing players to customize the role they play. There are two ways to do this: allow the player to customise abilities, attributes and equipment; or, allow the player to choose how they interact with characters and the story as a whole. Mass Effect takes the second approach - you customize your role by choosing how you interact with characters, and by making choices that will (hopefully) affect the plot.

RPGs - heavy emphasis on customizing/personalising your role in the game. Other genres - typically just give players a role to play. Some games that aren't RPGs allow the player's role to be customized, but they don't place as much emphasis on it as RPGs do.

There's alot of problems with the Mass Effect approach and it's relation to RPG's,  it's pretty much the digital implementation of the video I linked to on page 1.

In Mass Effect 2,  the Character's not defined.  You are Shepherd.  But who Shepherd is,  is never defined.  He's not a sharpshooter,  he's not a diplomat,  he's not good,  he's not bad,  he's just amorphous.  It's like me saying to any one of you...

"You are now Bob,  assume his Role,  do what he does".

None of you can do it,  because I didn't define Bob,  the Role is empty.  This is ME2.  "You are Shepherd",  except you know nothing about him,  because he is undefined.  What everyone keeps claiming is Roleplaying,  is self-insertion,  it's LARPSing,  you're pretending you are Shepherd,  not that you've assumed the Role of Shepherd.

As such,  it's not an RPG,  it's closest approximation would be a LARPS,  which while it is a form of Roleplaying,  it's not an RPG,  and I'll stand by my statement that almost none of the people posting here would join a LARPS.

Further,  the assertion that ME series,  most especially ME2 is an RPG because you make decisions is the height of hypocrisy.  You don't make decisions in ME2,  nothing you do makes any difference.  Be nice,  be mean,  be good,  be bad,  in almost every situation you get the exact same outcome.  No matter how good you are Jack will never be offended,  Grunt won't mind if you talk your way out of fights or be humble.  No matter how bad you are Tali and Samara will never conflict.  No one will ever refuse you anything because of the choices you made,  such as Tali will be just as loyal if you support Cerberus as if you opposed them.

So even if you try and use the "Choices" defense for defining ME series as an RPG,  it's still not an RPG because nothing changes.  Even the choices you made in ME1 are irrelevant,  because it's just emails with no real impact.  Nothing you do matters,  so nothing you do defines a Role.

Just like when I was the paragon of virtue,  and kicked a unarmed man off a building in cold blood,  it didn't matter,  because the game didn't recognize me as having a Role.

Can I use sarcasm? I hope the guy doesn't get offended.

[lolnoobs]

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!

would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?

He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?

Modifié par lolnoobs, 19 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[SpiffySquee]

lolnoobs wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!

would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?

He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?

Who said that? I never said that. But of course you already know that right? Because you would never post arguments about a video you never watched, right? <_<

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 19 août 2011 - 11:56 .

[Rockworm503]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Travie wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The example I always come back to is Jade Empire. In many ways, it's more 'dumbed down' Mass Effect 2 - limited looting system, barebones leveling, you can't control the growth or customize your teammates AT ALL, and I've never heard anyone accuse it of not being an RPG. And this was years before EA even gave Bioware two thoughts.

This.  The "purists" just **** about ME because its new and popular and not exclusively marketed to a niche crowd of grognards.

RPG enthusiasts care about gameplay more then marketing. I'm sure it would make everyone happy to see an RPG do well (like Risen did). 

Sure, but you gotta admit the purists tend to look down on any game or rule system that doesn't conform to the RPG checklist.  Mass Effect series are somewhat genre defying games in that they take elements from shooters, RPG, and adventures to create a certain experience.  Yet I rarely see shooter fans complaining that the game doesn't have enough shooter elements, it's always RPG enthusiasts bashing the game for being "dumbed down" "streamlined" "CoD in space lol" "for the masses" and so forth.  Usually their reasons for such criticism is that the games don't fulfill one or more of the sacred pillars of RPGs, like an inventory, or stat based combat.

To me, that's not a valid criticism.  Not being a traditional RPG does not = a bad game, or a game for the less intelligent.  Thats like saying The Matrix was a bad action movie because it didn't have a car chase scene.

The purists make the same arguments over and over, usually while advocating the elitist position that if a game doesn't have stat based combat and aiming, it must be "for idiots who play CoD on Xbox."

This position is clearly seen on this site and places like rpgcodex; blatant, nerd raging elitist egomaniac losers who don't even seem to enjoy playing games as much as criticizing whatever "the masses" are enjoying.

Don't get me wrong, I love old school RPGs.  ME series are not great RPGs.  But they are great games, which ultimately is all I care about, and its why I get frustrated seeing them criticized on the grounds of not fitting into a certain genre.

Jade Empire is more "streamlined" than Mass Effect, but no one ever brings that up because it wasn't a big, popular game, so it somehow is more of an RPG?

My thoughts exactly.  It isn't about the game its about bashing game because it doesn't meet the requirements they and they alone are qualified to judge it on.  For every person who calls ME an RPG you have several people clearly lifting their head up high and thinking "RPG wouldn't be caught dead with such a primitive game" "BLAH BLAH CoD"  The worst is using CoD or Gears of War or Halo to badmouth it.  I'm not a fan of those games but what makes your tastes in game any better than theirs?
If I stuck to the old ways of thinking what a good game is I would never have bought anything because i grew up on 2D platformers.  They haven't made a decent Megaman game in ages you don't hear me complaining about it.