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Why Mass Effect 1, 2, &3 are RPGs


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#176
Rockworm503

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azerSheppard wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...
So you mean that if you play a role, it's an RPG? So if all the online players role play during gameplay, it's an rpg?:blush:

If Call of Duty would have defined your character rather than a faceless husk (I mean, what can you really customize aside form your guns?), than it would be an RPG.

Link from Zelda 2, is not defined either, he never talks or develops aside from skills, the only char dev that occurs is objective based (go do this go do that) yet that game is an actionRPG, explain it to me how that works?


No Zelda game has ever been or ever will be an RPG.. People who call them that throw the term around.  Proving once again how pointless it is to even have RPG as a lable.

#177
Homey C-Dawg

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Nice videos Squee. Very well thought out and presented.

#178
Rockworm503

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lolnoobs wrote...

Arcian wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME

Fabulous.


So! Every game ever made is a RPG. SINCE YOU PLAY A ROLE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Hey, RTS just mean Real time strategy. You have to have strategy in ME LOL SO IT R RTS LOLOL.

Hey, Racing games just mean you can drive vehicles around, LOLOL VEHICLES R IN ME SO IT R RACING LOL

Hey, Adventure games are just games with an adventure, well, you have an adventure in ME. So it's an Adventure game!

Hey, Simulation games just simulate things! LIKE ME SIMULATE SPACE COMBAT ACTION LOL SO IT R SIM GAME.

:wizard:<3:wizard:


Sigh*  keep ignoring the video and making up your own idea of what it was about if you want its just making you look stupid.

#179
lolnoobs

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SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!


would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?


He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?



Who said that? I never said that. But of course you already know that right? Because you would never post arguments about a video you never watched, right? <_<





From 04:34 to 05:15

A Role Playing Game is a game where you play a role of a character and you can make that character have some dialog options (Renegade "bad" or Paragon "good"). Those or your words, not mine.

So when you give the option in COD, GOW or any other game to either pick a good dialog option or a bad one it becomes an RPG?

Modifié par lolnoobs, 20 août 2011 - 12:21 .


#180
wilhelm Screamer

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I like that last bit of advice you drop at the end, also very fun watch.

#181
azerSheppard

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Rockworm503 wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...
So you mean that if you play a role, it's an RPG? So if all the online players role play during gameplay, it's an rpg?:blush:

If Call of Duty would have defined your character rather than a faceless husk (I mean, what can you really customize aside form your guns?), than it would be an RPG.

Link from Zelda 2, is not defined either, he never talks or develops aside from skills, the only char dev that occurs is objective based (go do this go do that) yet that game is an actionRPG, explain it to me how that works?


No Zelda game has ever been or ever will be an RPG.. People who call them that throw the term around.  Proving once again how pointless it is to even have RPG as a lable.

Zelda 2 is officially labeled as an action  rpg, i don't know where your info is coming from. Noone is talking about the other zelda games.

This one has jrpg esque random encounters in main map, blended with sidescrolling platform gameplay in dungeons, with an experience system for leveling character status.

#182
RyuGuitarFreak

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lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!


would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?


He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?



Who said that? I never said that. But of course you already know that right? Because you would never post arguments about a video you never watched, right? <_<





From 04:34 to 05:15

A Role Playing Game is a game where you play a role of a character and you can make that character have some dialog options (Renegade "bad" or Paragon "good"). Those or your words, not mine.

So when you give the option in COD, GOW or any other game to either pick a good dialog option or a bad one it becomes an RPG?



Would you both mind if I jump myself here? I'd say that depends.
I'm gonna go ahead of Squee, ask you something. Do you consider The Witcher or Deus Ex RPGs? If so, why? Of course, talking about roleplaying mechanics. Compare to the perspective you made of COD or GOW with dialog options.

#183
Rockworm503

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Phaedon wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
It's just BS, from my point of perspective.

Yes, yes it is.

Even if the arguments were actually good, all of those debates start from people supporting the stereotype that if a game is a shooter and not an RPG, then that's a bad thing. That it makes a bad game.

You can have them explain it as eloquently as they want, about how "mainstream" shooters are, and how shooters are like checkers to chess when compared to RPG.

Well...
I will have yet to see one of them complain about Mass Effect not being an adventure game, because you know, that's after all definitely not a mainstream genre, and one that requires much more thinking than the rest.


If I had a nickel for every time someone uses Call of Duty fans as a an excuse to badmouth ME I would be richer than Opera.  Seriously its old and stupid.  I am no fan of CoD, Halo, or GoW but I don't think the people playing them are any less a person than me.  Its just another form of elitism.  RPG purists are no better than the fools who spew anti console nonesense.

#184
azerSheppard

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Anyone who states mass effect is not an rpg doesn't seem to understand that it's an RPS, it was never meant to be an CRPG like baldurs gate etc...

#185
SpiffySquee

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lolnoobs wrote...



From 04:34 to 05:15

A Role Playing Game is a game where you play a role of a character and you can make that character have some dialog options (Renegade "bad" or Paragon "good"). Those or your words, not mine.

So when you give the option in COD, GOW or any other game to either pick a good dialog option or a bad one it becomes an RPG?


Those are not my words either... perhaps you should watch it again. I never say that, and to pretend I did is to ignore 90% of what I said.

It is not a simple as having a choice to make. It is not as simple as "some paragon or renegade options" A role playing game allows to you develop the character, control how they react to the world and events around them, and define their personality.

Dropping a simple "would you like to kill them or not" in a game does not even come close to covering these bases. Now if you had several points in the game where you could choose how the character reacts to what is going on, could make them develop and grow in different directions as a person, and choose how they feel about their relationships with those around them, then yes, it would have role playing elements.

Would it be pure RPG? of course not. It would be a FPS with role playing elements.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 20 août 2011 - 12:38 .


#186
Rockworm503

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Gatt9 wrote...


You really should avoid talking about things you don't know about...


You should take your own advice.

#187
Rockworm503

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Gatt9 wrote...

1.  I'm not wasting 10 minutes of my life to watch a video


This right here..... why should anyone waste their time reading your posts?

#188
TheWerdna

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Lizardviking wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Just like any game, either you are a great sweet talker, or a great intimidator, or a mix that is not as good at both. If you want to do both, then you will not be as good at any one. High level checks are high level because not everyone can do them. If you want to sweet talk Jack into loyalty, you had better have had a lot of practice at sweet talking and understanding how people feel. You can't have that expertise if you spend half your time bullying and intimidating people.


What about a Shepard that is kind to his friends, teammates and innocents but pretty ruthless when it comes to anything else? Why can't that Shepard persuade them to calm down?

Because I don¨t want to dance around this for too long I will just say that people complain about the persusaion system because it restricts paragade/renegon for no good reason. I also never heard it used as a reason for why ME is not a RPG.



Well, you could do that if you wanted, there is nothing that says you can't. My canon Shepard is roughly 80% Paragon and 20% Renegade. Most of the major choices I took were Paragon, since I decided my Shepard would follow a sort of White Knight mentality (Help other, protect the innocent, et cetera). The 20% renegade comes almost completely from dialoge and Renagade interupts. I did so because i decided to Roleplay that dispite his mostly Paragon outlook, my Shepard is a bit cynical, jaded, and bitter; and acts more ruthless and  angry. due to the universe to be dark and bad things still happen, no mater what good he does; and all the effort to stop the Reapers being ignored).

This is just a example of how the system does allow for Roleplaying, and that you are not forced to be all paragon or all renagade. (I hade no problems makeing the requires level of paragon points, dispite the amount of Renagade stuff i did)

#189
Rockworm503

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SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!


would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?


He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?



Who said that? I never said that. But of course you already know that right? Because you would never post arguments about a video you never watched, right? <_<



At this point I would just ignore everyone who refuses to even look at the videos...  Their pretty much ignoring you anyway.

#190
Rockworm503

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lolnoobs wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

lolnoobs wrote...

So if Activision adds a conversation system to COD it becomes an RPG? Really? REALLY?? DUDE NO DUDE JUST NO ... DUDE!


would you like frys with your jumping to conclusions?


He said that RPGs are games where you play a role, and have a character that you can somewhat develop. You know like the paragon and renegade stuff.

So if they add a "KILL ALL" and "KILL SOME" conversation option to COD it becomes an RPG? Really?



Who said that? I never said that. But of course you already know that right? Because you would never post arguments about a video you never watched, right? <_<





From 04:34 to 05:15

A Role Playing Game is a game where you play a role of a character and you can make that character have some dialog options 


I agree.
Picking and chosing the context of what people said always works :whistle:

#191
Varen Spectre

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 ... Also to finish my relatively long post from page 6...

I think that the main purpose of every game genre or better said of classification of games into specific genres is to give a brief indication to players and readers of paper and online gaming magazines, what can they expect from the game they have never seen or tried before.

I remember my local paper magazine's review section was divided into entire sub-sections according to supposed videogame genres, so that a reader could easily find out what was new in his favorite genre.

If I go by traditional "treshold system", than if I read that a game is supposedly an RPG, I can imgagine that a game will probably have some of the features like skills system, leveling system, strong emphasis on story, inventories and various equipment, loot, most likely some kind of combat sections, conversations with NPCs, at least little bit of exploration and non-linearity, main quests and sidequests, (I am sure I have omitted some good stuff:P), etc.

Now, if I could truly and fully trust that the reviewer or whoever is talking about the game has a similar perception of the "treshold system" as I do, and has decided to call a game an RPG, than I can almost safely approach the game, because it will most likely have a lot of the abovementioned features, which I like.

However, if somebody considers a game an RPG because it is a game that tries to allow me to pretend that I am a main character of the game and make decisions for that character, what am I supposed to imagine when he says that he played a good RPG?

Is it an action game or a non-combat game or both? Is it linear or non-linear? How does it work? What mechanics does it use?

All I can presume is that a game has "some" kind of system or mechanism which would allow me to act in different ways in different situations - most likely in conversations with other characters. But not much more.:blush:

Now if I compare it with somebody who again follows the same "treshold" approach as I do, and he says, Mass Effect 2 is an (TP) action / RPG hybrid, I can presume that at least some of the features like skills system, leveling system, strong emphasis on story, inventories and various equipment, loot, most likely some kind of combat sections, conversations with NPCs, at least little bit of exploration and non-linearity, main quests and sidequests, etc. made it to the game in addition to probably strong presence of action elements.

It's not perfect, but I still have an idea how Mass Effect 2 supposedly works. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, like I said. I have nothing against the definition itself... IMO it's very pure and close to original meaning of words like "role" and "playing", but it is IMO soo broad and uncertain that it starts to diminish the purpose of classification (of games in different genres) itself.

Anyway, thank you for wishing us not to get hit by cars.:P It's a very rare wish and thus is very appreciated.^_^  

#192
Il Divo

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Gatt9 wrote...

2.  If you consider 14 lines of text "Long winded" then it becomes apparent why Bioware keeps reducing the amount of text in their games.



Bioware games typically do not repeat the exact same points with a different format ad infinitum. You do. I can trace your "Kill a YMIR at Level Two" and "100% paragon pushing someone off a building" statements across a hundred different threads. We've heard all your arguments before, much like your claim regarding Squee. The scenarios are not equivalent.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 août 2011 - 01:18 .


#193
SpiffySquee

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Varen Spectre wrote...

 .

However, if somebody considers a game an RPG because it is a game that tries to allow me to pretend that I am a main character of the game and make decisions for that character, what am I supposed to imagine when he says that he played a good RPG?

Is it an action game or a non-combat game or both? Is it linear or non-linear? How does it work? What mechanics does it use?
Anyway, thank you for wishing us not to get hit by cars.:P It's a very rare wish and thus is very appreciated.^_^  


While I don't disagree with you, the point of the video was to show what stats and such are means to an end, not the end itself. I was not trying to come up with a definition that summed up the entire game (as I feel it is a hybrid) The video was intended to show that the game still has role play elements even with the lack of inventory, skill tree, etc (even those are still in the game)

And I wish such things because I care for your safty! Cars are fast. We? not so much....:?

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 20 août 2011 - 01:21 .


#194
Savber100

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lolnoobs wrote...



From 04:34 to 05:15

A Role Playing Game is a game where you play a role of a character and you can make that character have some dialog options (Renegade "bad" or Paragon "good"). Those or your words, not mine.

So when you give the option in COD, GOW or any other game to either pick a good dialog option or a bad one it becomes an RPG?




If it makes any difference on the plot or characters, then YES. :happy:

If I had the option to choose my personality through characters like Soap MacTavish or Master Chief, the game is a RPG as I'm defining that character and not the developers. 

If I can change the plot as a character through my decisions in-game, it's a RPG. 

#195
frozngecko

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I liked the vid, except for the part where you claimed that Shep being a brick was done on purpose, so that you can inject your own motivations into the actions. The problem i had with that statement is the fact that you justified it with the feeling that motivation choices are limiting. I disagreed because injecting my motivations limited my options on what to do (and thus actions were limited). To be honest, I wanted save the Collector base so that I could complete the mission of SAVING THE COLONISTS, but I couldn't because I either had to destroy the base, or save it, but wipe out anything alive in it. I think that action choices are limiting factors, not motivations. BW can address that problem by tightening up the writing to allow for multiple (at least more than two) branches to the story...but that's off topic.

I also mainly disagreed with your notion that motivation choices are hard. They are hard, yes, but they are not impossible, especially for a dev like BW. Yes, I am aware that there are limitations to having to "choose" motivations, but there are ways around it. I hope that in ME3, for example, the notion of factions is really taken seriously. Motivations can materialize in which faction the avatar wants to connect with to fight the Reapers. This allows Shepard to "choose" who they want to go to battle with. Maybe Shepard is anti-alien, and only aligns with the Alliance. Another Shepard may see an advantage in allying with the Turians due to their superior battle fleet. These are motivations that can be "injected" into the character, but can also affect the game in significant ways, as opposed to I chose between two choices. It will be complicated, code-wise, but they can do it. Their top-notch resume shows that they have the capability to seriously do this.

The point is this: Even though this is an RPG, there should be some form of development to show that whatever actions that Sheperd is doing clearly affects Shepard. I saw this in ME1, when Shep romanced a LI, or when Shep lost either Ash or Kaidan. I saw this type of development with Shep when he made reports out to the Counsel. I saw almost none of that in ME2. Many people flocked to Tali or Garrus as a LI because Shepard has an obvious history that made romances make sense (repressed love, fear, nervousness, the sense of loneliness before a suicide mission). There is also no real serious acknowledgement of the fact that Shepard USED TO BE DEAD. I thought that this would've been especially interesting to look at, but I never get to express that feeling because there are not actions that lead to it....without having to romance Jacob.

Other than that, I liked the vid....and I like debating. :)

#196
Rockworm503

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

2.  If you consider 14 lines of text "Long winded" then it becomes apparent why Bioware keeps reducing the amount of text in their games.



Bioware games typically do not repeat the exact same points with a different format ad infinitum. You do. I can trace your "Kill a YMIR at Level Two" and "100% paragon pushing someone off a building" statements across a hundred different threads. We've heard all your arguments before, much like your claim regarding Squee. The scenarios are not equivalent.




The irony is hey won't watch a 10 minute vidoe because his time is worth more than that.
Its not wasting time when he came up with it amirite?

#197
SpEcIaLRyAn

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Ignorance is bliss right.

#198
lolnoobs

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Savber100 wrote...
If it makes any difference on the plot or characters, then YES. :happy:

If I had the option to choose my personality through characters like Soap MacTavish or Master Chief, the game is a RPG as I'm defining that character and not the developers. 

If I can change the plot as a character through my decisions in-game, it's a RPG. 


So Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II – Chaos Rising is a full blown RPG? Since you could define your teams actions by going the good side or going to the bad side. Hell, even in the Total War series you could play a warmonger, or go the peace route. You consider that an RPG to?

And second, you can't change the plot as a character through your decisions in ME. It's the same plot, go kill Saren in ME or Go kill the collectors in ME2. All the "big" decisions so far have turned out to be nothing more than some small cameos or some e-mail you recieve.

Modifié par lolnoobs, 20 août 2011 - 10:05 .


#199
Candidate 88766

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Gatt9 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

RPGs - the focus is on player choice over the role. Every game allows you to play a role, RPGs are defined by allowing players to customize the role they play. There are two ways to do this: allow the player to customise abilities, attributes and equipment; or, allow the player to choose how they interact with characters and the story as a whole. Mass Effect takes the second approach - you customize your role by choosing how you interact with characters, and by making choices that will (hopefully) affect the plot.

RPGs - heavy emphasis on customizing/personalising your role in the game. Other genres - typically just give players a role to play. Some games that aren't RPGs allow the player's role to be customized, but they don't place as much emphasis on it as RPGs do.


There's alot of problems with the Mass Effect approach and it's relation to RPG's,  it's pretty much the digital implementation of the video I linked to on page 1.

In Mass Effect 2,  the Character's not defined.  You are Shepherd.  But who Shepherd is,  is never defined.  He's not a sharpshooter,  he's not a diplomat,  he's not good,  he's not bad,  he's just amorphous.  It's like me saying to any one of you...

"You are now Bob,  assume his Role,  do what he does".

None of you can do it,  because I didn't define Bob,  the Role is empty.  This is ME2.  "You are Shepherd",  except you know nothing about him,  because he is undefined.  What everyone keeps claiming is Roleplaying,  is self-insertion,  it's LARPSing,  you're pretending you are Shepherd,  not that you've assumed the Role of Shepherd.

As such,  it's not an RPG,  it's closest approximation would be a LARPS,  which while it is a form of Roleplaying,  it's not an RPG,  and I'll stand by my statement that almost none of the people posting here would join a LARPS.

Further,  the assertion that ME series,  most especially ME2 is an RPG because you make decisions is the height of hypocrisy.  You don't make decisions in ME2,  nothing you do makes any difference.  Be nice,  be mean,  be good,  be bad,  in almost every situation you get the exact same outcome.  No matter how good you are Jack will never be offended,  Grunt won't mind if you talk your way out of fights or be humble.  No matter how bad you are Tali and Samara will never conflict.  No one will ever refuse you anything because of the choices you made,  such as Tali will be just as loyal if you support Cerberus as if you opposed them.

So even if you try and use the "Choices" defense for defining ME series as an RPG,  it's still not an RPG because nothing changes.  Even the choices you made in ME1 are irrelevant,  because it's just emails with no real impact.  Nothing you do matters,  so nothing you do defines a Role.

Just like when I was the paragon of virtue,  and kicked a unarmed man off a building in cold blood,  it didn't matter,  because the game didn't recognize me as having a Role.

I would argue that Shepard is defined, more than in most RPGs anyway. He (or she) is a former Alliance soldier and former Spectre brought back from the dead. Whichever moral path you choose, Shepard is out to stop the Reapers. However you make your Shepard, they have a back story. So, you know Shepard's backstory and you know Shepard's goal - stopping the Reapers. While you get some say over the motivation Shepard has, and over the choices Shepard makes, you cannot change the fact that ultimately Shepard is out to stop the Reapers. While not a fully-fleshed out character by any stretch, Shepard is defined. You choose his class, you choose his moral approach to policing the galaxy, but some stuff is defined. For example, Shepard can't be a criminal - whichever path you choose, you are defending the galaxy. You can't make Shepard anything other than a soldier - while you can choose which type of soldier he is via class selection, you can't make him a diplomat for example. He can be a soldier good at talking people down, but he is still a soldier. Saying Shepard is not defined at all is quite frank;y wrong. The character in Oblivion is undefined - you are in prison for an undefined crime and you're broken out. Thats it. Shepard is defined - he is a Spectre in ME1, and in ME2 he is a person brought back from the dead to defend humanity. You can choose his class, but you can't change the fundamental fact that Shepard is out to defend the galaxy, the fact that Shepard was part of the Alliance.

As for choices, firstly I'll reserve judgement until after ME3. If the choices still haven't made a huge difference I'll agree with you. However, you are wrong that choices have no impact. Many mission involves a choice that leads to someone living or dying. Sidonis; the hostage on Thane's mission; Jacob's father; Morinth or Samara; Mordin's assistant; the guy Zaeed wants to kill; the guy on Jack's loyalty mission. While they may not have had long-term consequences yet, there is still the immediate consequence that characters are either alive or dead. Your decisions on the loyatly missions decide whether characters live or die. Many choices you make a clearly setting things up for ME3, so obviously won't have consequences yet: the Geth, the Quarians, the Genophage - all of these were obviously set up for ME3, so we have to wait until ME3 to decide whether those choices mattered. ME1 choices have already started to matter - characters may not even be in ME2 if you let them die, Wrex obviously being the most obvious. While you may not consider these to be big consequences, they are still consequences.

We'll have to reserve full judgement until ME3 - right from the start, we were promised that we would feel the consequences of our actions in the final game. You make a good point that it would have been interesting if your actions could've alienated some of your squadmembers, but I'd argue that the confrontations sort of do that. There could've been more consequences, I fully agree, but saying there were none is wrong.

#200
asindre

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lolnoobs wrote...
And second, you can't change the plot as a character through your decisions in ME. It's the same plot, go kill Saren in ME or Go kill the collectors in ME2. All the "big" decisions so far have turned out to be nothing more than some small cameos or some e-mail you recieve.

would you mind giving an example of a RPG where you change the  plot through your decisions?