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[Xilizhra]

Here are my ponderings about this plot device of plot devices.

Firstly, the way Corypheus talks about it is... interesting. Not just the "it was never golden," thing, but some information that corroborates that. He says something about how Dumat promised it would be golden, and implying that it was the Old Gods who pointed out the city's existence. Now, the modern Black City can be seen in the Fade no matter where you are; if it was golden once, the Tevinters would have observed it long before now, and probably tried to find a way to it themselves. But Corypheus speaks like the Golden City was some new vision from the Old Gods.

This would seem to confirm that the City was, in fact, never golden and that the Maker probably never had a seat there, considering how filled with taint it was. So that leaves the question of just what it is... and therein lies an intriguing possibility. When Tamlen looks into the Eluvian in Origins, he sees an underground city. It's true that this could just be a fallen dwarf city full of darkspawn, but it could also be the Black City itself, if the City doesn't truly exist within the Fade. It's possible that the Fade city is merely a reflection of a physically real place... and of the physically real places, one definitely strikes me as fitting, and that is Arlathan. Blasted with blood magic, sunken into the earth... if this event so charged it with magic that it left a permanent shadow in the Fade, and tainted and mutated it into something new and alien... then that could be it. Arlathan, spawning the taint in ultimate revenge against the Old Gods and the Tevinter Imperium.

And on that note, I doubt that it was Dumat who made the promise to the magisters at all. I suspect it was Fen'Harel posing as him; being freed by tainted creatures doesn't seem to serve the Old Gods all that well, whereas Fen'Harel could well appreciate the qualities of that as a prank.

[whykikyouwhy]

Two words regarding the city of legend, lore and infamy - "Rotten Twinkie."


Or... "Pandora's Box." 

[TEWR]

Pandora's Twinkie.



EDIT: From now on I'm calling the Black City "Kingdom Hearts". That's what it reminds me of.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 août 2011 - 05:02 .

[Macropodmum]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Pandora's Twinkie.

You just made me choke on my chupa chup...that sounds so wrong


Edit: On a more serious note this thread covers a lot of the speculations you have raised in this post OP

Modifié par Macropodmum, 19 août 2011 - 05:34 .

[Auroras]

 Rolling with this theory, this would propose that some Eluvians are somehow connected to the Black City -- the Eluvian encountered in the Dalish origin, as you stated. Perhaps even Morrigan's Eluvian leads there, as she does state that the portal leads to somewhere "beyond the Fade". 

[Anyroad2]

Auroras wrote...

 Rolling with this theory, this would propose that some Eluvians are somehow connected to the Black City -- the Eluvian encountered in the Dalish origin, as you stated. Perhaps even Morrigan's Eluvian leads there, as she does state that the portal leads to somewhere "beyond the Fade". 

Morrigan goes through the Eluvian, into somewhere "beyond the Fade" about... 2 or 3 years after the end of the 5th Blight. She mentions that the Eluvian will work for one more use. Also, she when asked about her child, she says that he is somewhere safe.

So this left me wondering...

When you meet up with Morrigan, she is facing the mirror even though shes been expecting you (or waiting for whoever she felt was following her). I think its possible that right before The Warden appears on scene Morrigan sent her child through. Meaning that if that were true.. whatever is "beyond the Fade" is safe (or safe enough for Morrigan to raise and protect her 2-3 year old child).

That all raises more questions though if this were true. What did Tamlen see? Why did the Eluvian taint (or something else) Dalish Warden and Tamlen? Is it possible that the Eluvians dont all go to the same place?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe that he was saying that City was Golden at first when they arrived after listening to his words. Considering that it is still thought to be impossible to reach the City in modern times too, I don't see why it would have been any different in ancient times either.

Fen'Harel being the one promised the Magisters the "power of the gods" is a theory that does stirke me as very plausable and I've said so before, but I don't know there's any hard evidence that makes me want to jump on board with that theory.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Morroian]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe that he was saying that City was Golden at first when they arrived after listening to his words.

I don't because that would make the chantry version almost correct.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And that couldn't be the case because?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[Zanallen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And that couldn't be the case because?

The Chantry isn't allowed to be right or tell the truth. Forum rules.

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe that he was saying that City was Golden at first when they arrived after listening to his words. Considering that it is still thought to be impossible to reach the City in modern times too, I don't see why it would have been any different in ancient times either.

Fen'Harel being the one promised the Magisters the "power of the gods" is a theory that does stirke me as very plausable and I've said so before, but I don't know there's any hard evidence that makes me want to jump on board with that theory.

Neh its pretty clear that the city was black already otherwise cory would be ****ing about it.

[Rifneno]

I'm okay with the Chant's version of events turning out to be true if it ends up being acknowledged that the Maker is a total douchebag and the real cause of all these problems rather than some benevolent loving entity.

Anyway, I'm not sure about a direct connection to Arlathan but I definitely think Oil City is of elven origin. Consider: a) the elves of ancient times would spend centuries at a time in the Fade the elves of old did not die of natural causes... neither do darkspawn c) the elves of old all had magic... and while most darkspawn are too stupid to figure it out, many darkspawn have figured out how to use the taint to cast magic. Two gifts the ancient elves had, both very unique, the darkspawn have. Hell of a coincidence.

[whykikyouwhy]

Going back briefly to the OP and the reference to Tamlen seeing an underground city - what is it that makes him think it's underground? Does it resemble a thaig? (would he have seen one to know one?) Were there evident tree roots, dirt, rock formations, lyrium deposits? Or was it just dark and dank looking - sinister in appearance as though swallowed up by the earth?

I'm inclined to think (or rather, I think it would be cool if...) that Tamlen's Eluvian went into the Rotten Twinkie City and maybe that is where he was changed, though to a lesser degree than the magisters since centuries have passed (thereby lessening the severity of the taint in the city somewhat). I feel that Eluvians played some role in accessing the city, if even to portal or jettison a person to its gates (and not necessarily inside).

But I'm still inclined to see the city as allegorical in legend and lore. I think it's a walled off portion of the universe where dark things dwell or are stored (were swept under the rug). Being separated from existence, so to speak, it becomes a temptation. No one knows what's there, but they know its powerful. The natural assumption would be that the power would be , the vile creeps out and infects the land and its people.

Maybe the siren call to breach the gates was an intentional ploy to aev the seals broken. Maybe someone or something wanted the taint to be unleashed. Fen'Harel? Maybe, but other than just for kicks, doing so would mean that his worshippers would suffer, and what's a god without worshippers? The Maker? I think the Maker is a pinata stuffed with older deities. So I'm not sure.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think anyone ever worshiped Fen'Harel. Feared and tried to avoid, sure, but never worshiped. I doubt Fen'Harel would care.

[whykikyouwhy]

So the dog statues in the DA:O Dalish camp are just warnings? "Venture not beyond this perimeter lest you be eaten by grues?"

He may just be a figurehead, a legend only. But the fear/respect gives him some hold and sway over the clans. They certainly seem to do enough with him in mind.

[Xilizhra]

Is there a solid reason for him to need worshipers, though?

Wait a minute. Dog statues... remember the dog statue from the mage origin that amplifies spells cast into it? I think it looks exactly like the Fen'Harel one.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 août 2011 - 01:26 .

[whykikyouwhy]

No, there's no "reason" - it just makes some sense given the regard assigned to him, how he is spoken of, how he was able to walk between two realms, etc. In most mythologies, the trickster figure is on the fringe of the main pantheon, but is still considered a deity and probably has worshippers.

I didn't play a mage in DA:O, but dog statues don't seem very common in Thedas, if memory serves (not as prevelant as bird statues), so maybe it was an effigy of him.

[Reznore57]

I think Fen'Harel might be the only one who cared about mortals.Why bother stop the war between Gods.They would have killed each others and since it was not his fight ,he was pretty safe.

I don't think the Gods are friendly at all , Dumat teaching blood magic , and then tricked the magisters into the Black city.
I'm pretty sure something tricked the elven too , and teach them how to built the Eluvian , and what destroy Arlathan is the taint.
They probably sunk the city themselves to try to stop it before it goes too far.

You know maybe the Black city hold some keys to the Gods prison , and the taint is a protection system.
(arf another crazy theory )

[Rifneno]

I agree, Fen'Harel may well be the good guy. Taking the form of Loki but playing the part of Baldr.

And yes, I think that statue in the Circle basement is the same as a Fen'Harel statue, but statue models get reused more than frickin' trees. I thought for a while the statue outside Flemeth's hut might be a clue because it's the same statue the elves use for one of their goddesses. But then I noticed the damn thing in random human areas too. =/

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And that couldn't be the case because?

The Chantry isn't allowed to be right or tell the truth. Forum rules.

Because the Magister turned Darkspawn Corypheus said it was Black instead of Golden? If he addressed that it wasn't golden like it was supposed to be, then it was black when the Magisters entered the Black City.

[whykikyouwhy]

The gods tricking mortals isn't all that far-fetched. The Greco-Roman pantheons used mortals as their playthings, but there was a lot more fornicating going on in those stories (odd how we don't hear a lot of that with regard to the DA deities...hmmm...) But at some point, gods will need man, to worship them, bring tributes, etc. Crushing the bulk of mankind would leave the gods without that source of power.

Thee elves sinking Arlathan themselves is an interesting thought though. Maybe the capital city resided on or over something that needed to be further buried. I still wonder if there is something more significant to Sundermount since it was the site of a great battle, the resting place of elders, and the location of a rather convenient shrine.

[HAM Hawke]

I think the Black city was a trap laid by the old gods in order to taint beings powerful enough to make it there. You know kinda put a cap on their strength so to speak, because Corypheus was a fairly weak Magister in my opinion. As the Old Gods return to power via a blight, and regain their full strength, the Old Gods probably have the ability to turn the Black city Golden again.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus' tone of voice when he said "Darkness...ever since" sounds like he's talking about the Golden City. The warden you are with even says that he's talking about the Golden City. He could be referring to what happened to himself since he went to the Black City but I think that is a little bit less likely.

"But it was black. Corrupt. Darkness... ever since." His inflection sounds to me like his thought process was all about the same thing. I don't think he'd change the subject in the middle of that sentence. Plus he doesn't even seem to mention anything about what happened to him, it is like he doesn't even seem to realize it yet. He doesn't even mention darkspawn at all. If he was captured after the First Blight those sound like something he'd mention whether he was a tevinter or a darkspawn.

If the city was gold but turned black once he got there, I don't think that would have contradicted what he said.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Corypheus' tone of voice when he said "Darkness...ever since" sounds like he's talking about the Golden City. The warden you are with even says that he's talking about the Golden City. He could be referring to what happened to himself since he went to the Black City but I think that is a little bit less likely.

"But it was black. Corrupt. Darkness... ever since." His inflection sounds to me like his thought process was all about the same thing. I don't think he'd change the subject in the middle of that sentence. Plus he doesn't even seem to mention anything about what happened to him, it is like he doesn't even seem to realize it yet. He doesn't even mention darkspawn at all. If he was captured after the First Blight those sound like something he'd mention whether he was a tevinter or a darkspawn.

If the city was gold but turned black once he got there, I don't think that would have contradicted what he said.

Now add in what he says next.  Angrily, "how long?"  Why would he be angry about the length of time unless he was reflecting on his imprisonment?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He was wondering how long ago the city turned black. Reflecting on his imprisonment makes no sense. He was obviously talking about the city at first, why would he change the subject completely? He was imprisoned by the Wardens long after the debacle at the Golden/Black City. If you take Anders with you there is an entirely separate line where he asks how long he slumbered. Why would he wonder twice?