147 réponses à ce sujet

[el master pr]

Reptillius wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

el master pr wrote...

In gameplay instant-effect biotic powers suck and projectile biotics FTW. So no, biotics don't suck.

This is the same as with the inventory, heavy weapons, health bar, etc., in that everything turns out to be personal preference. So if you think biotic powers suck, well that's your opinion, and I respect it, but don't come asking such a thing because you know people will differ from you.

Yes, I also respect other peoples opinion. But the ''Weaker biotics are better than stronger biotics'' is a bit of a mistery opinion for me. Instant means = save time = stronger biotics.

Faster does not mean better or stronger... just means faster.  Strength and speed often are not the same thing. Though they can compliment each other in a good system.

My thoughts exactly.

[Dr. rotinaj]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

I think the profectile biotics are much less of a problem compared to the global cooldown. It slows everything down when compared to ME1, where each individual power had it's own cooldown. In ME2 not only do the powers share a global cooldown, it also applies to tech powers and class-specific powers all at once.... which is bad.

Are you kidding? Individual cooldowns are what made ME1's combat way slower than ME2's. In ME1, almost every power had a cooldown timer that was above 30 seconds. Since enemies were such bullet sponges, you would have already used most of your talents at the beggining of a fight and what ended up happening was that you would run around for a minute until they recharged. Compared to ME2, talent/power usage was really slow in ME1.

Now look at ME2. The highest cooldown is 12 seconds. Power recharge times were way shorter and the global cooldown system made sure that wouldn't be a balance issue. Could you imagine playing an adept in ME2 but didn't have the global cooldowns? You would be using a biotic attack EVERY second, it would be completely overpowered. The new system made powers way more fun and way faster to use while still retaining balance (which ME1 sorely lacked) . 

[RighteousRage]

Lmao this thread is so typical of a Bioware forum. I was laughing to myself how no one even understood what the OP was implying for like two pages because they had so little imagination or critical thinking ability.

1. Biotics as visible projectiles makes no sense, because they were formerly instant. Bioware wanted to make it possible to hit guys with biotics behind cover, but to "balance" (read: overcompensate) for this they made biotics barely affect enemies and also made them slower, a cosmetic change to show that they are going around corners.

2. It's not necessary for something to be a visible projectile to have a curved path, and yes, something that lands instantly can have a curved trajectory as far as video games are concerned. Just imagine if the biotics were like ME 2, but they reached the enemy immediately after being cast, with a blue trail showing the path it took. If you still think this is impossible then you've only been alive for a day or two or your cognitive dissonance is pushing you to the brink of insanity.

3. The reason global cooldowns are a problem with biotics is because you can't chain things effectively as you could in ME 1, like lift+throw, statis+warp, etc. Individual cooldowns did not make combat "slower", the fact that the cooldowns took so long made the combat slower. Global cooldowns sort of make sense for purely biotic characters, but when you have powers like "throw grenade" and "change ammo" it's just weird, as though pushing a button on your gun takes as much mental focus as telekinetically throwing a guy across the room.

4. If there were no global cooldown, again, this does not mean that it would be overpowered. Biotics hardly do crap to guys that have shields and barriers if I remember correctly, requiring you to pound away at them repeatedly. In situations where enemies have only health, they'd be dead in a second anyway, so it seems pretty fair to me. Biotics were clearly underpowered in ME2 - ask anyone that knows what they're talking about (not the typical Bioware fanboy).

5. The reason he's not behind cover when he's throwing biotics is because you have to leave cover temporarily to use them. You guys played this game right?

Fixers0 wrote...

Here's why:

Very cheap, lame, boring and generic purple balls = Mainstream gamers know what's happening .

This probably basically sums up the reasons for what happened to biotics. Whoosh I'm throwing a fireball! Oh no I'm out of ammo, reload, Marcus!

Modifié par RighteousRage, 19 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[TheMakoMaster]

D.Kain wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

• Don't play a biotic if you can't aim them
• Learn to aim slightly above or to the side of targets
• Use stasis to hold targets in place so you can aim
• Stop trying to hit enemies from too far a distance. There's a reason why Vanguards got shotguns; most biotics work best up close

Really this seems like a non-issue, aiming the biotic projectiles was fairly simple and any good biotic knows how to swerve the projectiles to go over cover and harrass enemies.

No you don't get it. I don't have problems with hitting things, I have problem WAITING until my projectiles hit things, it really gives my enemies time to shoot at me if I'm not in cover. I mastered throwing my enemies in any direction, even pushing them towards me or up/down.

i like the delay.  on insanity/adept i will throw a curved area pull at a shielded/armored enemy and headshot the target while the pull projectile is still in the air.  add in a squadmate's overload first and several skilled headshots to multiple targets and you can lift up 3-4 bad guys in one swift move.  then do warp after the 3 or so seconds and gun down the weakened remains.  indoors/sans edges where enemies can fall off, throw is worthless.  even as a crowd control it is vastly inferior to pull.

[Enigmatick]

Oh lookie here another I wanna be an ME1 overpowered biotic god thread! These never get old

 http://25.media.tumb...f9ddgo1_500.png

I honestly think that this guy was put in ME2 to satirize ME1 biotics.

[Biotic Sage]

OP, I sympathize with you so much. I was trying to get like 10 different people to understand this concept of having biotics move as fast as the bullets from Sheps guns, while at the same time STILL being able to curve around stuff just like in ME2. Apparently, this is difficult for many people to grasp and my advice would just be to stop trying. Either they aren't really listening to you and are misunderstanding, or they are really dense.

Below: a visual representation of the concept that someone did for me and a link to the previous thread discussing this.

http://imageshack.us...eakoflight.jpg/

http://social.biowar...39069/3#8140930

[Dr. rotinaj]

The whole "adepts are underpowered in ME2" thing is a myth, anyone who says biotics suck in ME2 have never used a biotic class properly. I play adepts on insanity all the time; with the right squaddies the game is a breeze. If anything, biotics were way too powerful in ME1.

[Biotic Sage]

Enigmatick wrote...

Oh lookie here another I wanna be an ME1 overpowered biotic god thread! These never get old

I honestly think that this guy was put in ME2 to satirize ME1 biotics.

What he's proposing wouldn't make biotics overpowered at all, it would just give a different feel to biotic combat.  There's a difference between waiting for a bolt of energy to hit an opponent and having it feel immediate.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

The whole "adepts are underpowered in ME2" thing is a myth, anyone who says biotics suck in ME2 have never used a biotic class properly. I play adepts on insanity all the time; with the right squaddies the game is a breeze. If anything, biotics were way too powerful in ME1.

Nothing beats the ME1 Soldier, who with minimum cooldowns and the highest level Immunity could safely melee a Geth armature to death on Insanity.

[TheMakoMaster]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

The whole "adepts are underpowered in ME2" thing is a myth, anyone who says biotics suck in ME2 have never used a biotic class properly. I play adepts on insanity all the time; with the right squaddies the game is a breeze. If anything, biotics were way too powerful in ME1.

Nothing beats the ME1 Soldier, who with minimum cooldowns and the highest level Immunity could safely melee a Geth armature to death on Insanity.

idk, its pretty hard to die with a vanguard that has maxed out adrenaline rush, biotic shield, and electronics.  its pretty hard to get the shields down in fact.

edit:  i did the virmire run on foot just for kicks. cakewalk

Modifié par TheMakoMaster, 19 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[Arppis]

Atleast Liara's singualirit.. sing... the ball attack was pretty good. Plus Vanguard biotics work pretty well! They don't suck.

[D.Kain]

@RighteousRage

Thank's for the support.

@Biotic Sage

Your image shows exactly what I was talking about. We are in the same boat.

@Dr. rotinaj

There is a difference between being a good player and having a good biotic system. If you could win even if biotics didn't penetrate health, that wouldn't mean that the system is not underpowered, it would mean that you are just a badass player. And as I said before, I did win every fight.

[Dr. rotinaj]

@D.Kain

I never implied that one had to be a good player to use biotics. Biotics, and talents in general, are different in terms of usage. In ME2, your powers are complemented by your squadmates. ME2 and now ME3 both put more emphasis on squadmates and their powers than ME1 ever did. It's not that you have to be a better player in ME2, but that you can't always be a one man army like in ME1.

[NitrAce]

Wow what the? I've never had any problem with Adept, I like the travel time on the powers, it looks cooler and works the same for me as instant attacks. At least for me, don't know how you prefer your gameplay. I wouldn't care either way, it's just travel time feels more awesome.

Let me reword that, when I say works the same for me, I mean it feels the same to me. I wouldn't care if it hit them instantly or traveled to them, in the end they ARE going to get ****ed up. It just makes the attack feel more insane when it travels to them, like oh yeah I just threw that at you run but you can't hide!

Modifié par NitrAce, 19 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[Nizzemancer]

Maybe you should Suck less?

Seriously, I don't play around with biotics that much but I don't have any problems with it, I'm guessing the problem is you.

It's sort of how I tell the rookies at the shooting-range "if you can't get a tight group it's not the weapon, it's you".

[nocbl2]

Sentinel rocks. Warp/Overload to Stasis Drop or Biotic punch volley.

[XDMMX]

Biotics were a joke in ME2, I felt like Biotic Shepard belonged at a cheap magic show then on the battlefield. Those cutscenes which Jack, Samara and Morinth only helped to reinforce the feeling that Shepard was a pathetic Biotic who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

It wasn't that you couldn't fight as a Biotic in ME2, hell I mostly only played Adepts, its just that often times as a Biotic you where being forced to use guns and be a Pistol wielding Soldier with some worthless powers.

Often times you end up relying on guns to strip protections and after you stripped enemy protections, it became pointless to use Biotics, as a couple shots from your gun would finish the target off faster.

[Reptillius]

RighteousRage wrote...

1. Biotics as visible projectiles makes no sense, because they were formerly instant. Bioware wanted to make it possible to hit guys with biotics behind cover, but to "balance" (read: overcompensate) for this they made biotics barely affect enemies and also made them slower, a cosmetic change to show that they are going around corners.

Actually your confusing several different issues as one.   They are weaker because of the potency of the ability to combine Biotic affects in various ways that you could not do in ME1... Warp did not cause singularities to explode in a massive damage AOE for example. That alone requires some hits to be not as hard.

on top of that there are issues like the fact that Warp isn't really a "bleed" effect anymore.  it's a direct damage attack.

Your making a blanket statement about one alteration to Biotics that doesn't take factors like these into account when you make statements like this.

Also it can be argued that a Biotic is controlling the energies they release so they cannot effectively create and control an arcing path at instant speeds.  The combat of the game up to a point kind of supports this suggestion.

And as I have stated before. instant has no travel so it would not have a curved path that it takes. it simply takes place at the end point. You can decide to break those rules just because you want the end point somewhere that it cannot be in an instant-cast system. 

Bullets are not instant no matter how fast that you make them. They are projectiles even if they are high velocity projectiles.  Projectiles travel.

There is also the fact that instant cast isn't really in line with the ME lore... even of the first game. Biotics by the Lore reach outward from the caster. One thing we luckily don't have to put up with mechanically is the fact that they are supposed to get weaker the farther they get from the Biotic controlling the affects.  The fact that you see a blue ball or whatever go out is also a mechanical issue that your throwing fits over. It's so we as the players can tell where the Biotic attacks are going so we can make adjustments to how we use them.  Visually it could be a pink bouncing bunny running across the screen if Bioware wanted and have the same affect mechanically for the players.

Modifié par Reptillius, 19 août 2011 - 10:56 .

[Reptillius]

XDMMX wrote...

Biotics were a joke in ME2, I felt like Biotic Shepard belonged at a cheap magic show then on the battlefield. Those cutscenes which Jack, Samara and Morinth only helped to reinforce the feeling that Shepard was a pathetic Biotic who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

It wasn't that you couldn't fight as a Biotic in ME2, hell I mostly only played Adepts, its just that often times as a Biotic you where being forced to use guns and be a Pistol wielding Soldier with some worthless powers.

Often times you end up relying on guns to strip protections and after you stripped enemy protections, it became pointless to use Biotics, as a couple shots from your gun would finish the target off faster.

That would be your play experience. I did not personally have that issue. I found ways to quickly and effectively use biotics even on armoured enemies...  I didn't have to use my gun all that much at all even on insanity.  And when I did it was usually just to speed things up and make combat go even faster.

[Icophesis]

Yeah it seems most people are quick to defend the way Biotics work in ME2, and I understand the balance issues perfectly, but come on... it was way more fun throwing people around in ME1

[XDMMX]

Reptillius wrote...

That would be your play experience. I did not personally have that issue. I found ways to quickly and effectively use biotics even on armoured enemies...  I didn't have to use my gun all that much at all even on insanity.  And when I did it was usually just to speed things up and make combat go even faster.

But thats just the point, if you want to kill things in a quick and timely fashion, you have to use guns as an Adept, other wise be prepared for a marathon battle.

[CajNatalie]

I see where the OP's coming from here, but 'instant' taken literally I cannot agree with.
Just really really fast is what I'm thinking. Though the fact they've sped up the dark energy in ME3 significantly in the first place is enough for me.

XDMMX wrote...

But thats just the point, if you want to kill things in a quick and timely fashion, you have to use guns as an Adept, other wise be prepared for a marathon battle.

I challenge you to try playing ME1 Insanity as an Adept without shooting.
See what a marathon really is.
All classes use guns. Now in ME2, you use guns less and can actually kill without shooting more practicably. What's the problem again?

Mass Effect 1: Adept on Insanity
Pick any video from that playlist you want. It's all 'disable; debuff; bulletspray' rinse and repeat (exception: Pinnacle Station, because that's where they FINALLY introduced killzones).
The Adept is seriously lacking the tools to finish enemies off. All you can do is bulletspray until it dies.
In Mass Effect 2, you have the +100% bonus to damage from enemies getting ragdolled so enemies will die pretty much the moment you pick them up, you can curveshot Throws to perform home runs or ceiling-smashes, and of course there's the juicy new warp bomb for wreaking havoc on groups with massive damage. 'If only these were possible in Mass Effect 1' I kept thinking to myself in that Adept run... but nope, I had to do things the slow'n'hard way.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 20 août 2011 - 12:16 .

[Ahglock]

When it looked like I was gaining on my singularity once I sprinted after it, I kind of thought yeah these things fly way to slow.

I'm kind of boggled by the reading comprehension fails in this thread. Is it just knee jerk defend everything ME2 gone awry?

[D.Kain]

CajNatalie wrote...

I see where the OP's coming from here, but 'instant' taken literally I cannot agree with.
Just really really fast is what I'm thinking. Though the fact they've sped up the dark energy in ME3 significantly in the first place is enough for me.

XDMMX wrote...

But thats just the point, if you want to kill things in a quick and timely fashion, you have to use guns as an Adept, other wise be prepared for a marathon battle.

I challenge you to try playing ME1 Insanity as an Adept without shooting.
See what a marathon really is.
All classes use guns. Now in ME2, you use guns less and can actually kill without shooting more practicably. What's the problem again?

Mass Effect 1: Adept on Insanity
Pick any video from that playlist you want. It's all 'disable; debuff; bulletspray' rinse and repeat (exception: Pinnacle Station, because that's where they FINALLY introduced killzones).
The Adept is seriously lacking the tools to finish enemies off. All you can do is bulletspray until it dies.
In Mass Effect 2, you have the +100% bonus to damage from enemies getting ragdolled so enemies will die pretty much the moment you pick them up, you can curveshot Throws to perform home runs or ceiling-smashes, and of course there's the juicy new warp bomb for wreaking havoc on groups with massive damage. 'If only these were possible in Mass Effect 1' I kept thinking to myself in that Adept run... but nope, I had to do things the slow'n'hard way.

I didn't do insanity, because it wasn't fun for me. I like it when enemies become smarter not just get more hp. But in ME1 I was a Nemesis with Savant bio-amp and biotic throw/warp were OHKO for most of the time, and biotics also picked up geth colossus and even kill it with warp. So basically you could walk into a room and kill everybody using one power after another while throwing a few grenades. In ME2 ( and I'm not talking insanity again ) you need about 3 biotic pushes to kill an enemy, and you can't even kill krogan or vorcha with anything other than warp or guns, also you can't damage vehicles with biotics other than warp. So in which game was the Adept stronger?
I used got the mode for ME2 for biotics to work through shields and armor, and I still couldn't kill things in a room with no windows if I didn't use warp or guns.

[nocbl2]

Well, this is why you upgrade your passive (and class as a Sentinel).

Then you can use Warp to strip pretty much all protections(shields with less effectiveness, but hey that's why you have a gun), and 3 seconds later your enemy is flying off a ledge.