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So biotics still suck


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#126
Shepard the Leper

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Fixers0 wrote...

It's like the whole defense layer system bioware invented for Mass Effect 2 - it's not that it doesn't work in game, it's just so offensive to lore, shouldn't anyone wearing a combat suit have kinetic barriers? and where do under equiped Vorcha thugs getting that armor from?


Screw the lore. I'm not lore-playing - I'm playing a game and having to press one button to disable all enemies is not 'gaming' - that's cheating. Obviously, the defense system isn't perfect, but there isn't an alternative. In ME2 you hardly ever have to fight more than 5-6 enemies at a time; when Shepard and his/her two buddies can take out enemies instantly reduces fights to 3 against 2-3; add AoE powers and there isn't any fighting anymore. Adding 1000x HP to enemies doesn't change a thing (only makes things tedious, shooting helpless enemies for minutes til they die).

Defenses encourage teamwork, using the appropriate powers and weapons combined. That's basically everything Mass Effect offers to the player. The option to play, on the hardest difficulty, without using teamwork or weaponry kinda beats the purpose of having something one could call a challenge.

Maybe when the Xbox 2880 and the PS7 arrive, hardware can handle 50 enemies at once. In that case you can drop the defenses system and let the player go berserk with biotics and still enjoy a decent challenge.

#127
Shepard the Leper

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Last Vizard wrote...

I personally like Starwars: force unleashed, i like biotics in ME 1 but the class nerfing in ME2 made every class seem like a cheap attempt to make the game more shooty... i don't want to play a shooter when i play an RPG, Fallout 3 and new vegas are two RPGs that really pull off RPG shooter elements well.


Mass Effect is rpg nor shooter. FO3 isn't a shooter, or at the very best a terrible one. All the "shooting" is based on a system of chance (not skill) and is turn-based. You can't do sh-t besides hitting the enemy with weapons in FA3 (no ME powers available). If you don't like to shoot guns then ME isn't a game for you. There are no space mages in the ME universe. Shepard is a soldier, an expert with weapons. The player can chose a class to have its powers assist in combat. If you think or believe Adepts are supposed to be played without weapons, you've completely missed the point of the series.

#128
Last Vizard

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

I personally like Starwars: force unleashed, i like biotics in ME 1 but the class nerfing in ME2 made every class seem like a cheap attempt to make the game more shooty... i don't want to play a shooter when i play an RPG, Fallout 3 and new vegas are two RPGs that really pull off RPG shooter elements well.


Mass Effect is rpg nor shooter. FO3 isn't a shooter, or at the very best a terrible one. All the "shooting" is based on a system of chance (not skill) and is turn-based. You can't do sh-t besides hitting the enemy with weapons in FA3 (no ME powers available). If you don't like to shoot guns then ME isn't a game for you. There are no space mages in the ME universe. Shepard is a soldier, an expert with weapons. The player can chose a class to have its powers assist in combat. If you think or believe Adepts are supposed to be played without weapons, you've completely missed the point of the series.


So Asari commandos don't rely on their biotics and use guns only? pretty sure the biotic boss battles involve abilities for the most part.

#129
didymos1120

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Last Vizard wrote...

So Asari commandos don't rely on their biotics and use guns only? pretty sure the biotic boss battles involve abilities for the most part.


Only Benezia for the asari, who wasn't a commando, and thus wasn't otherwise armed.  All the other asari encounters we get, they use their firearms more than they do their biotics.  Yes, even Vasir: she spends nearly all the time between Charges shooting at you and the squad with her AR.  Occasionally, she'll throw out a Shockwave. The same is true of biotic enemies of other species as well: gunfire punctuated occassionally with a biotic attack.  The exception with them being Harbinger.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 août 2011 - 11:47 .


#130
Shepard the Leper

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Last Vizard wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

I personally like Starwars: force unleashed, i like biotics in ME 1 but the class nerfing in ME2 made every class seem like a cheap attempt to make the game more shooty... i don't want to play a shooter when i play an RPG, Fallout 3 and new vegas are two RPGs that really pull off RPG shooter elements well.


Mass Effect is rpg nor shooter. FO3 isn't a shooter, or at the very best a terrible one. All the "shooting" is based on a system of chance (not skill) and is turn-based. You can't do sh-t besides hitting the enemy with weapons in FA3 (no ME powers available). If you don't like to shoot guns then ME isn't a game for you. There are no space mages in the ME universe. Shepard is a soldier, an expert with weapons. The player can chose a class to have its powers assist in combat. If you think or believe Adepts are supposed to be played without weapons, you've completely missed the point of the series.


So Asari commandos don't rely on their biotics and use guns only? pretty sure the biotic boss battles involve abilities for the most part.


Whut? What's your point here? Didn't I just said you need to use weapons and powers combined?

#131
Fixers0

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

It's like the whole defense layer system bioware invented for Mass Effect 2 - it's not that it doesn't work in game, it's just so offensive to lore, shouldn't anyone wearing a combat suit have kinetic barriers? and where do under equiped Vorcha thugs getting that armor from?


Screw the lore. I'm not lore-playing

Good for you.

- I'm playing a game and having to press one button to disable all enemies is not 'gaming' - that's cheating.

Were?

Obviously, the defense system isn't perfect, but there isn't an alternative.

How so?

In ME2 you hardly ever have to fight more than 5-6 enemies at a time;

No, but they keep spawning behind the door.

when Shepard and his/her two buddies can take out enemies instantly reduces fights to 3 against 2-3; add AoE powers and there isn't any fighting anymore.

Again were does this occur?

Adding 1000x HP to enemies doesn't change a thing (only makes things tedious, shooting helpless enemies for minutes til they die).

Right, that's a bad idea, (looks at the Vasir bossfight.)

Defenses encourage teamwork, using the appropriate powers and weapons combined. That's basically everything Mass Effect offers to the player. The option to play, on the hardest difficulty, without using teamwork or weaponry kinda beats the purpose of having something one could call a challenge.

No, its cheap and lame system that doesn't make a lick of sense within the lore, and do you honoustly think that adding carttoonish looking health bars is the only way of improving gameplay?  


Maybe when the Xbox 2880 and the PS7 arrive, hardware can handle 50 enemies at once. In that case you can drop the defenses system and let the player go berserk with biotics and still enjoy a decent challenge.

Or you could use to time to come up with decent gameplay challenges.



#132
CroGamer002

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ME1 is very against the lore of the Biotics once you bother to read Codex.

#133
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D.Kain wrote...

 Mainly due to still being projectiles. The delay that happens while biotic projectiles are flying to the target do make difference in biotic strength. Seriously how hard is it to make INSTANT curving biotics? 

:blink:How does something instant curve?

#134
haihaiq

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Hello, everybody, 

:ph34r: [Spam deleted] :ph34r:

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 20 août 2011 - 03:51 .


#135
TobyHasEyes

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jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

 Mainly due to still being projectiles. The delay that happens while biotic projectiles are flying to the target do make difference in biotic strength. Seriously how hard is it to make INSTANT curving biotics? 

:blink:How does something instant curve?


 Something which says 'Pull's the enemy at the angle that the biotic was cast, but the effect was instantaneous

I don't want that, but that is what it would be

#136
Shepard the Leper

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Fixers0 wrote...

Screw the lore. I'm not lore-playing

Good for you.


Games are about gaming first, lore is somewhere far behind. The other way around is not good (for me or anyone else for that matter)

- I'm playing a game and having to press one button to disable all enemies is not 'gaming' - that's cheating.

Were?


Play ME1.

Obviously, the defense system isn't perfect, but there isn't an alternative.

How so?


Because nobody has presented something better thus far. If you can please do so, if you can't you just proven my point.

In ME2 you hardly ever have to fight more than 5-6 enemies at a time;

No, but they keep spawning behind the door.


So? Or do you argue having to fight the same guys multiple times increases the challenge in any way?

when Shepard and his/her two buddies can take out enemies instantly reduces fights to 3 against 2-3; add AoE powers and there isn't any fighting anymore.

Again were does this occur?


When you play below HC (when enemies have no defenses) - Adept Shep does not fight at all. Enemies basically die just by looking at them. That's fine for the easier levels, not for the toughest difficulty level (coz it ain't difficult at all to pause-pull the lot and win the battle).

Adding 1000x HP to enemies doesn't change a thing (only makes things tedious, shooting helpless enemies for minutes til they die).

Right, that's a bad idea, (looks at the Vasir bossfight.)


We agree on something at least ;)

Defenses encourage teamwork, using the appropriate powers and weapons combined. That's basically everything Mass Effect offers to the player. The option to play, on the hardest difficulty, without using teamwork or weaponry kinda beats the purpose of having something one could call a challenge.

No, its cheap and lame system that doesn't make a lick of sense within the lore, and do you honoustly think that adding carttoonish looking health bars is the only way of improving gameplay?  


It's the lesser evil and therefore better than the usual HP approach (and we both agree that's a bad system). If I have to chose between the two, I chose the protection system any day.

Maybe when the Xbox 2880 and the PS7 arrive, hardware can handle 50 enemies at once. In that case you can drop the defenses system and let the player go berserk with biotics and still enjoy a decent challenge.

Or you could use to time to come up with decent gameplay challenges.


Like what? Of course improving the challenge by improving AI is what everyone wants, but there isn't much that can be done with the current hard-/software so that's not a real option. A solution has to be found based on the current hardware (limitations) and that doesn't allow much room to maneuver.

#137
JayhartRIC

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Pretty much every game increases challenge by increasing the HP. I felt Bioware did something clever by adding wrinkles in the gameplay with the protection system.

#138
CajNatalie

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I always laugh when people act like making 'good AI' is so simple.

Maybe in a hundred years it'll be possible and affordable on everybody's little home consoles and computers... but now?
Quit joking around and try some programming yourself.

Increased HP/Damage and Protections are what we have right now. Deal with it or quit playing games until you're old and wrinkly, when game AI might be all right.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 20 août 2011 - 12:20 .


#139
Fixers0

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Screw the lore. I'm not lore-playing

Good for you.


Games are about gaming first, lore is somewhere far behind. The other way around is not good (for me or anyone else for that matter)

Who says lore and gameplay can't be in harmony with each other?

- I'm playing a game and having to press one button to disable all enemies is not 'gaming' - that's cheating.

Were?


Play ME1.

Really, never happened to me, actually in that game i had to aim with Biotics.

Obviously, the defense system isn't perfect, but there isn't an alternative.

How so?


Because nobody has presented something better thus far. If you can please do so, if you can't you just proven my point.

It's Bioware's job to come up with interesting and challenging gameplay, i can give a couple of ideas, but i don't think it's the right place.

In ME2 you hardly ever have to fight more than 5-6 enemies at a time;

No, but they keep spawning behind the door.


So? Or do you argue having to fight the same guys multiple times increases the challenge in any way?

No, it's yet another epic cheap tactic to unnecessary lengthen combat sequences. 

when Shepard and his/her two buddies can take out enemies instantly reduces fights to 3 against 2-3; add AoE powers and there isn't any fighting anymore.

Again were does this occur?


When you play below HC (when enemies have no defenses) - Adept Shep does not fight at all. Enemies basically die just by looking at them. That's fine for the easier levels, not for the toughest difficulty level (coz it ain't difficult at all to pause-pull the lot and win the battle).

Aim, Aim and Aim, besides most enemies in Mass Effect 1 had Kinetic barriers, as they should.

Adding 1000x HP to enemies doesn't change a thing (only makes things tedious, shooting helpless enemies for minutes til they die).

Right, that's a bad idea, (looks at the Vasir bossfight.)


We agree on something at least ;)

Good to hear.

Defenses encourage teamwork, using the appropriate powers and weapons combined. That's basically everything Mass Effect offers to the player. The option to play, on the hardest difficulty, without using teamwork or weaponry kinda beats the purpose of having something one could call a challenge.

No, its cheap and lame system that doesn't make a lick of sense within the lore, and do you honoustly think that adding carttoonish looking health bars is the only way of improving gameplay?  


It's the lesser evil and therefore better than the usual HP approach (and we both agree that's a bad system). If I have to chose between the two, I chose the protection system any day.

Or, they could change the game so that you have to aim with weapons, or just come up with something entirely new, they whole combat-protection-layer system is so offensive to the games own universe and is so unrealistic that i would be surprised that an omni-tool can be used as a weapon to physically damage someone...oh.

Maybe when the Xbox 2880 and the PS7 arrive, hardware can handle 50 enemies at once. In that case you can drop the defenses system and let the player go berserk with biotics and still enjoy a decent challenge.

Or you could use to time to come up with decent gameplay challenges.


Like what? Of course improving the challenge by improving AI is what everyone wants, but there isn't much that can be done with the current hard-/software so that's not a real option. A solution has to be found based on the current hardware (limitations) and that doesn't allow much room to maneuver.

There are so many ways to improve gameplay, sequences, flank a hidden Sniper, infiltrate via ventilations systems, hack into a security network, use biotic's to manipulate enviroments, etc, if bioware can't come up with these basic alternatives, then i'm not so sure if they go their priority's right. 


Also let me ask you a question: What's the point in establishing a detailed  lore in a complicated fictional universe via codex if you are just going to Retcon because you want to make enemies thougher?

#140
Aaleel

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Well in ME1 the Biotics were overpowered, but they were more fun to me, with the exception of Biotic charge. But at the same time, if there would have been more enemy biotics that scaled with you, they would have been ripping you apart later in the game with instant attack abilities and even decent AI. In ME2 you face a lot of Biotics.

As far as global cooldowns, my favorite class in ME2 is Vanguard hands down. If you have individual cooldowns instead of global, it would make the job less fun for charge spammers. You would have companions like Kasumi only being able to do like one shadow strike per fight.

I would say they need to tweek so that abilities don't feel nerfed, but at the same time aren't overpowered, but seeing it;s the last game I don't want the biotics ruined if they mess it up. So if I had to choose, I'd say leave mostly the same.

#141
D.Kain

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CajNatalie wrote...

I always laugh when people act like making 'good AI' is so simple.

Maybe in a hundred years it'll be possible and affordable on everybody's little home consoles and computers... but now?
Quit joking around and try some programming yourself.

Increased HP/Damage and Protections are what we have right now. Deal with it or quit playing games until you're old and wrinkly, when game AI might be all right.


I honestly believe that the best way to improve chalange is making enemies attack better. Enemies don't need more health/armor/shields on insanity they just need to use abileties more often, shoot more precise and do more damage. It's not hard to make a precise shooting AI. That way enemies still die fast if you have a good tactics, but the player also dies very fast if makes mistakes.

#142
Arppis

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JayhartRIC wrote...

Pretty much every game increases challenge by increasing the HP. I felt Bioware did something clever by adding wrinkles in the gameplay with the protection system.


Yeah, this. But I'd rather see new enemy types and more enemies in general that react bit faster.

#143
CajNatalie

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D.Kain wrote...

I honestly believe that the best way to improve chalange is making enemies attack better. Enemies don't need more health/armor/shields on insanity they just need to use abileties more often, shoot more precise and do more damage. It's not hard to make a precise shooting AI. That way enemies still die fast if you have a good tactics, but the player also dies very fast if makes mistakes.

Alright then... and this is exactly what they do as you raise the difficulty. In addition to a bunch of other stuff. It's all in the Coalesced.ini file... a crapton of variables that all turn to hell as you look at the higher difficulties.
Getting drilled with absolute precision by a common sewer vorcha's cheap volus assault rifle and losing your shields in 1/10th of a second is a common experience when you first arrive on Omega in New Game+ Insanity. XD
Meanwhile, for example, Harbinger will Assume Control almost immediately each time you drop his avatar, and can spam his space magic without taking any breaks (unless you Singularity- or Flashbang-lock him, lol), because of the extremely generous cooldown reduction the AI gets.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 20 août 2011 - 03:51 .


#144
LOLandStuff

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I want curving bullets, because I suck at aiming with a rifle.

#145
CruelAzuregos

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Strange I think the biotic powers are really good in Mass Effect 2, and more likly will be just as good in Mass Effect 3, just to prove my point take a look at how a simple mix of a singularity and throw managed to send Vasir in LOTSB flying into the distance and fall to her death.

Link: http://social.biowar.../albums/1251668

#146
nocbl2

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Two words:


Stasis drop.

#147
Shepard the Leper

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Fixers0 wrote...

Who says lore and gameplay can't be in harmony with each other?


Nobody, that's not the point, that's the ultimate goal. However, when one has to chose between the two, gameplay is far ahead and should always be the decisive criteria. We are talking about games here, not stories like in books. Games should be fun to play first, lore adds to the overall experience, but a game that's not fun to play isn't a good game whatever harmony it might have with the lore.

Really, never happened to me, actually in that game i had to aim with Biotics.


ME1 biotics have such a huge AoE basically ensuring your Singularity or Lift will get all enemies into the air regardless how good or bad your aim is. In ME2, biotics do require some aiming, but they are far easier to use than guns (more precise aiming is required to hit a target).

It's Bioware's job to come up with interesting and challenging gameplay, i can give a couple of ideas, but i don't think it's the right place.


Good and interesting ideas are always welcome and if the BSN isn't the right place to share those, which place is?

No, it's yet another epic cheap tactic to unnecessary lengthen combat sequences. 


It's a simple fact that hardware (read consoles) can't handle more enemies. I think Bioware would remove those waves if they could but they can't. So again, like the protection system, they had to think of something to make some fights more immersive than others. The only way to do this is to either throw more or stronger enemies at the player. Waves might be a bit cheap, but they are better than nothing - again, it's the lesser evil, not the ultimate solution. I rather fight through a couple waves with different enemy types coming in from different angles than having to fight only a few enemies (likely with huge HP).

Aim, Aim and Aim, besides most enemies in Mass Effect 1 had Kinetic barriers, as they should.


I don't understand what you're saying here, but in ME1 enemies have no protection against (biotic) powers like they have in ME2 (on HC/Insanity only). You could have them all floating around indefinitely which turns the so-called shooting part into a mindless execution. I did not like that, the ME2 (Insanity) system does not trivializes combat and still offers plenty of awesome biotic destruction. That's a lot better than the broken ME1 system. Not the perfect solution, but the lesser evil.

Or, they could change the game so that you have to aim with weapons, or just come up with something entirely new, they whole combat-protection-layer system is so offensive to the games own universe and is so unrealistic that i would be surprised that an omni-tool can be used as a weapon to physically damage someone...oh.


Whether it contradicts the lore is debatable. But is that really so important? According to the lore, using biotics tires the caster very quickly. Making the game true to its lore would mean a biotic Shepard could only cast two or three powers per mission. That would be a terrible gameplay decision.

I can't argue your personal views, but playing a sci-fi (fantasy) game requires a bit of creative imagination. To me, (armor) having some sort of kinetic barrier to shield its user from certain (biotic) attacks seems quite feasible. Shooting fire-/ iceballs out of your wrist isn't - it's a lot of fun to use those attacks though.

There are so many ways to improve gameplay, sequences, flank a hidden Sniper, infiltrate via ventilations systems, hack into a security network, use biotic's to manipulate enviroments, etc, if bioware can't come up with these basic alternatives, then i'm not so sure if they go their priority's right. 


All those things would be cool, especially the interactive environment part - I love the LotSB combat in that regard. More options like that are most welcome. However, none of these gameplay improving option is about the protection system (or better put, to stop the player from beating the game on the hardest setting without a challenge).

Also let me ask you a question: What's the point in establishing a detailed  lore in a complicated fictional universe via codex if you are just going to Retcon because you want to make enemies thougher?


That's the problem with sequels. Bioware corrected / improved some of the (gameplay) issues of ME1. They could also have opted to ignore gameplay and favor the lore which would not be a good option imho (if that's really the case).

I again refer to the current tech status. Today's computers simply can't produce solid AI. Every game I ever played has poor AI. The only alternative would be to have Bioware hire a couple million people to play every single enemy we face throughout the game and also with the ability to judge player's abilities on the fly to raise the challenge accordingly, which would be a little impracticable ;)

The protection system is actually a very innovative approach. It removes the tedious mega-HP nonsense allowing fast paced killing, but it also limits what the player can do (making the game a little harder as it's supposed to do). The system is also an elegant way to easily explain which powers can be used (to their fullest effect). No more "casting a hundred fireballs at an enemy before noticing they have no effect so that enemy must be immune to fire damage" BS. Those colored bars make it simple and easy for all players to understand what their powers can and cannot do. I agree the visual presentation needs some improvements, those bars are huge indeed.

#148
RedCaesar97

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CajNatalie wrote...

I always laugh when people act like making 'good AI' is so simple.

Maybe in a hundred years it'll be possible and affordable on everybody's little home consoles and computers... but now?
Quit joking around and try some programming yourself.

Increased HP/Damage and Protections are what we have right now. Deal with it or quit playing games until you're old and wrinkly, when game AI might be all right.

For those interested, GameSpot wrote an article in November 2010 titled "The Future of AI in Games":
http://www.gamespot....=result;title;0

Developing "good AI" is difficult.