371 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

Thanks for the link to the article and the quotes.

I'm not sure that the doctors are in touch with their own games anymore, or the gamers that play them.  Starting with the March 2011 Sony Qore episode (a doctor saying on-camera "when you push a button, something awesome happens"), and up to the linked article where customer-satisfaction-theory language like "surprised and delighted" was spoken yet again in reference to DA2, it seems as if they've stopped talking to actual gamers themselves.

But why?  These gamers been playing your games for years and years.  Is it because someone like a Veronica Belmont or a Tom Senior from PC Gamer or a Geoff Keighley isn't going to laugh at you when giving your button-awesome elevator pitch or telling them about all the surprised and delighted people?  Would you really make the same exact statements to a dedicated BioWare gamer who knows your games and your company's game-ography inside and out? 

If you knew you had to speak directly to a long-time BioWare gamer, what would you say to them regarding the next DA?  Or even to a Call of Duty gamer or a handhelds-are-dead smartphone gamer whose interest might be kindled in a DA game?  Could you actually talk to them in earnest about the DA gaming experience?  

See, the problem with the "best of both games" statement is that there is a tacit acknowledgement that the games negatively stand too far apart from each other in one or more factors, that somehow need to be married into the "best" one version.  But realistically the two games are much closer in operation than they are given credit for, and both are strongly rooted in the Dragon Age lore.  But what is beginning to stand too far apart is your perception of what the gaming market wants to hear, and how actual customers wish for the dialogue to operate. 

If you really want the "best of both games", then make the Dragon Age game you actually want to make (i.e. if you don't really want to reuse a cave system, then don't!)  - but treat all your potential customers in a familial fashion as if you want them to be dedicated BioWare gamers, and speak to them with that frame of reference in mind.  The DA team has really done this in earnest over the past few weeks, and now it may be time to follow THEIR lead and finally dispense with the Kano-speak and the we-take-it-seriously cover statements.   If this all comes to happen, then DA3 truly has a chance to best both its predecessors.

Modifié par jds1bio, 22 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[veramis]

Maybe bioware is doing its best to alienate its fans. Dumb us down so all we play are shooters. And we pay for gun dlcs. They must be thinking longterm, to bring into being a future where the only story or choice is how hard and fast you stomp on your opponent's face.

[Kilshrek]

Filament wrote...

I'd like to hope one thing they're doing is making companion armor customizable again, with unique (but swappable) outfits like Morrigan's, but upgrade-able like DA2's.

I think a full-text option in the menu would be a nice thing to implement for people who hate the voice/paraphrasing.

Some of the more hyper combat elements could stand to be toned down a bit without losing the "speed" of DA2's combat.

Just to name a few...

This was what Torment did I think, where some companions had full outfits that had different stats. And that was the idea I got from the pre-release talk. It turned out to be nothing of the sort and flatly disappointing.

The dialogue doesn't bother me too much, though I'm no great fan of paraphrasing, especially when it leaves so much room for error. A famous incident is Merrill's mission of course.

I don't think the actual speed of DA 2 combat is so much to blame as it is the speedy outlandish animations of combat. Closing attacks are a nice idea but completely and utterly ridiculous in execution, 2h and 2w rogues in particular. And then there's the enemies that run on a different ruleset to you, and they have "teleportation" spells.

They've already said they want to address "choice and consequence" which was done so well in previous games it came as a great surprise that when it really mattered, Hawke was a mere spectator to events.

But the bulk of my concerns lie with the combat and skill system. The skill tree as it is now is a decent thing, but I'm not really sold on upgrades. Like a DLC complaint, why should I invest a skillpoint into a skill I already have, to get an effect that should already be there. More skills!

Oh, and the art style. I can't look at the new darkspawn. And the obsession with scarves on anything, and spiky spiky things.

devSin wrote...

It's supposed to be anonymous, so I don't think they can tell that "furryrage59" started 10 characters and dropped most of them, but there's no knowing how much they can actually track (they probably have data on each of those 10 characters and how far they got, but I'm not sure if they could link them).

I think they can do exactly that, but that's just me speculating. I believe it was touched on once, how they got their stats, but I forget the where and when. And I'm not exactly too concerned to go dig it up right now.

jds1bio wrote...

If you really want the "best of both games", then make the Dragon Age game you actually want to make (i.e. if you don't really want to reuse a cave system, then don't!) - but treat all your potential customers in a familial fashion as if you want them to be dedicated BioWare gamers, and speak to them with that frame of reference in mind. The DA team has really done this in earnest over the past few weeks, and now it may be time to follow THEIR lead and finally dispense with the Kano-speak and the we-take-it-seriously cover statements. If this all comes to happen, then DA3 truly has a chance to best both its predecessors.

Those who disliked DAO got DA 2. A number who liked DAO dislike DA 2. What will DA 3 be I wonder? I've said before, going by the trend DA 3 will be much closer to DA 2, already the horrible new art style will be kept. I imagine wave combat will be looked at with a microscope, but sped up combat? I disliked that thoroughly. And like I said before, ME 2 and DA 2 were massive burns to me in the RPG department, so I'm not holding my breath for the next DA.

Also, Kano-speak?

Modifié par Kilshrek, 22 août 2011 - 03:52 .

[Mike_Neel]

Maybe they're pulling a "classic Coke" move.

Introduce something great that everyone loves, then throw it out, make something not as good and brand it as "New" "Shiny" and "Awesome". Then once everyone hates the product and the company, BAM! "Dragon Age classic!" and sales almost triple as people swarm in wanting to remember the good days.

The Facebook games would probably be Diet Coke and Coke Zero.

[craigdolphin]

Bioware are in a very difficult position and I don't envy them one bit.

Exactly which aspects of DAO and DA2 are considered the 'best' is going to differ (a lot) depending on who you ask.

They're keeping the DA2 art style: and that is pretty high on my list of 'worsts'. Obviously, Bioware has a rather different opinion. So, things aren't looking good for me based on that. I'm not entirely surprised, but it is dissappointing nonetheless.

There's a lot of other areas in which their final decision has not yet been made, or else has not yet been revealed. So I'm going to remain interested to hear what they come up with overall. But not fixing the darkspawn, elves, and the anachronistic UI does make it more likely that DA3 will not have the same kind of feel as DAO, and that's going to make it a harder sell (to me at least). So unless the good Doctors spell out exactly what they mean by 'the best parts', then I'm not sure how this is anything new that Mike Laidlaw and co haven't already said to us here on the forums. It's a nice sentiment, and I'm all for it. But the question is whether their ideas as to what was best, align with our (myriad) ideas as to what was best? And the only possible answer is that some of us will be bitterly dissappointed in the end: whatever they choose.

So, like I said before, I don't envy the devs their situation one little bit. I also feel a bit sad for me too because I would have greatly loved DAO2.

[NedPepper]

Vicious wrote...

Any person who can't get past Ostager is either very lazy or not too bright to begin with.

Or maybe they just got bored. Which can happen.

I actually know someone who quit at Ostagar.  Big Elder Scrolls fan.  He quit, in his words, because "the combat is clunky and the game moves too slow."

I didn't agree with this, BUT if this is a common occurence that Bioware picked up on....well.  A lot of people bought or rented the game because of word of mouth.  But how many finished it?  I don't have that data, and I doubt anyone else here does either. 

I beat the game at least 9 times.

But I had TIME.  I was working a job that had hours that gave me time to waste.  An average 9-5iver can't play Origins 9 times.  Origins takes over 100 hours if you do everything.  I think this is PART of why it was never finished.  The pacing could be glacial and the "casual' gamer, or in other words, people with responsibilities other than gaming, have to splice their time up in doing things they enjoy.  If a game is tedious, they're not going to finish it.  I'm just theorizing, so don't point fingers.

DA 2 makes thing FEEL like they're moving faster, even though you're still putting a lot of hours into it.

Yes it was rushed.  Yes, the reuse of maps drove people crazy.  But the pacing was heck of a lot of better.  It WAS less tedious to play.  Whether that's a good or bad thing, I'll let you argue that.  I don't really care.  Why?  Because I like the universe.  I like the characters.  I like the fact that even rushed, Bioware actually gives you so much to role play off of.   That's why all these sour grapes don't make sense to me.   And they never will.  I think some people simply have become so bitter, now no matter what Bioware does, these people are going to complain.

Hell, didn't someone just say it was FUN to be anti-Bioware.,,,

I think if there's a hint of truth in ANY of this ****ing and moaning, he may have just found it.

[Texhnolyze101]

The best of both worlds for me is 100% DAO and 3% DA2.

[Morroian]

nedpepper wrote...

I actually know someone who quit at Ostagar.  Big Elder Scrolls fan.  He quit, in his words, because "the combat is clunky and the game moves too slow."

An Elder Scrolls fan and he found the DAO combat clunky?? That does not compute.

[John Epler]

It was earlier today, but I feel it important to point out, once again, that images are not adequate replacement for actual discussion.

If all you have to add to a topic is an image, then I'd strongly recommend simply not joining the discussion at all.

[snfonseka]

Forgive me for being pessimistic. But after DA2 I'll make my purchase after the game is released, without pre-ordering.

[Big_Chief]

You know, if anything, these interviews annoy me because I'm growing increasingly convinced that they are entirely PR scripted market speak. How many different interviews, with different people in different circumstances, have had that exact same wording? "We made a lot of new fans with DA2, they responded positively to the faster combat and exciting story etc. But some hardcore fans may have just expected Origins 2.0, and we have to address both parties going forward and make sure we don't leave the hardcore behind etc." That is almost the exact script for multiple interviews we've seen and heard, from multiple people. It's a script, so it doesn't really feel like we're getting the straight talk from the devs. It also doesn't really give the impression that they are paying attention to or care about our concerns, since they're giving us the equivalent of an automated call center response. "Your call is very important to us, please stay on the line."

I know this is not true, because their responses on the forums seem a lot more candid and expressive, even if they don't have specifics for us, and I appreciate that. But these interviews are a bit frustrating.

[snfonseka]

Big_Chief wrote...

You know, if anything, these interviews annoy me because I'm growing increasingly convinced that they are entirely PR scripted market speak. How many different interviews, with different people in different circumstances, have had that exact same wording? "We made a lot of new fans with DA2, they responded positively to the faster combat and exciting story etc. But some hardcore fans may have just expected Origins 2.0, and we have to address both parties going forward and make sure we don't leave the hardcore behind etc." That is almost the exact script for multiple interviews we've seen and heard, from multiple people. It's a script, so it doesn't really feel like we're getting the straight talk from the devs. It also doesn't really give the impression that they are paying attention to or care about our concerns, since they're giving us the equivalent of an automated call center response. "Your call is very important to us, please stay on the line."

I know this is not true, because their responses on the forums seem a lot more candid and expressive, even if they don't have specifics for us, and I appreciate that. But these interviews are a bit frustrating.

^ Here's a cookie, for your comment.

[Yuqi]

nedpepper wrote...

I actually know someone who quit at Ostagar.  Big Elder Scrolls fan.  He quit, in his words, because "the combat is clunky and the game moves too slow."

I didn't agree with this, BUT if this is a common occurence that Bioware picked up on....well.  A lot of people bought or rented the game because of word of mouth.  But how many finished it?  I don't have that data, and I doubt anyone else here does either. 

I beat the game at least 9 times.

But I had TIME.  I was working a job that had hours that gave me time to waste.  An average 9-5iver can't play Origins 9 times.  Origins takes over 100 hours if you do everything.  I think this is PART of why it was never finished.  The pacing could be glacial and the "casual' gamer, or in other words, people with responsibilities other than gaming, have to splice their time up in doing things they enjoy.  If a game is tedious, they're not going to finish it.  I'm just theorizing, so don't point fingers.

To be fair,  there are some of us who have lots of responsibilities and still played origins many times. I clock a 9-5 job, and still managed it. It could be a generational thing,how many kids today could get through final fantasy 7?

[NedPepper]

Morroian wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I actually know someone who quit at Ostagar.  Big Elder Scrolls fan.  He quit, in his words, because "the combat is clunky and the game moves too slow."

An Elder Scrolls fan and he found the DAO combat clunky?? That does not compute.

You're telling me.  I never said I understood it, but that's what he said.  I'm probably the only person on this board who has ZERO interest in Skyrim.  Don't get the appeal of those games. 

[NedPepper]

Yuqi wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I actually know someone who quit at Ostagar.  Big Elder Scrolls fan.  He quit, in his words, because "the combat is clunky and the game moves too slow."

I didn't agree with this, BUT if this is a common occurence that Bioware picked up on....well.  A lot of people bought or rented the game because of word of mouth.  But how many finished it?  I don't have that data, and I doubt anyone else here does either. 

I beat the game at least 9 times.

But I had TIME.  I was working a job that had hours that gave me time to waste.  An average 9-5iver can't play Origins 9 times.  Origins takes over 100 hours if you do everything.  I think this is PART of why it was never finished.  The pacing could be glacial and the "casual' gamer, or in other words, people with responsibilities other than gaming, have to splice their time up in doing things they enjoy.  If a game is tedious, they're not going to finish it.  I'm just theorizing, so don't point fingers.

To be fair,  there are some of us who have lots of responsibilities and still played origins many times. I clock a 9-5 job, and still managed it. It could be a generational thing,how many kids today could get through final fantasy 7?

The game has to hook the person, though.  And maybe Origins didn't.  Even for me, it was a slow burn that first time, but once the story hooked me, I fell in love.  And again, I'm just throwing out a theory.  But the market is extremely competitive these days.  If a person is just feeling "meh" about a game, they go to a different one.  Maybe it is a generational thing.  I dunno.  I'm trying to be objective.  Again, I put a lot of time into DA:O.  But it's a game that speaks to me and my creative side. 
 
The big question for a company is how do we expand our market?  Why does the data say they're not finishing the game?  We mananged to sell a lot of units, so how do we keep that big audience?  Because I don't buy for one minute that Origins sold as well as it did only because of Baldur's Gate.  It had a buzz.  I remember, because I was one of those people telling everyone to play it.

It's a tough position for Bioware to be in.  If it were me, I'd respect some of these opinions, but I'd still push to make every DA game different and better.  And I really believe that's Laidlaw and Company's goal.  And it should be, even if it pisses some people off.

[AAHook2]

Zanallen wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Lord no, we're still waiting for Dragon Age 2.

Now now. We all know the game you really wanted was Dragon Age: Origins 2.

Yeah, Dragon Age 2.  As in...the sequel to Dragon Age Origins. Why is this confusing to anyone, let alone BioWare?

[Jarcander]

So who else is going wait for a review this time instead of pre-ordering?

[Kilshrek]

Jarcander wrote...

So who else is going wait for a review this time instead of pre-ordering?

I.

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm waiting for the Hate threads since those are biased in the right direction.
"This was bad, this was bad, ok, soinso was awesome..."

[TMZuk]

Well.... what do I wish to see in DA3 that featured in DA2?

Lets see....

Recycled environments? No!
Over the top absurd combat? No!
Incredibly lame sidequests? No!
Just one playable race? No!
Overspecialized classes? No!
A whole city with NPCs and buildings you cannot interact with? No!
Utter lack of non-combat skills? No!
Utter inability to solve any problems without combat? No!
Incredibly ugly anime elves? No!
Each and every companion to be bi-sexual? No!
Linearity? No!
Merrill? No!
Fenris? No!
Hawke? No!

Hmm! It does not leave a lot, does it? Bioware, get a grip! Wake Up!

Modifié par TMZuk, 22 août 2011 - 02:01 .

[Persephone]

Well.... what do I wish to see in DA3 that featured in DA2?

Lets see....

Recycled environments? No! Already confirmed that this is a priority.
Over the top absurd combat? Loved most of DAII's combat, esp. the Mage combat. Hate the DAO combat.
Incredibly lame sidequests? Preferred DAII's sidequests to those of DAO.
Just one playable race? No!
Overspecialized classes? Done better than in DAO IMHO
A whole city with NPCs and buildings you cannot interact with? No! Agreed. More interaction is needed.
Utter lack of non-combat skills? Except that that is not entirely true.
Utter inability to solve any problems without combat? Not true either but should be more prominent.
Incredibly ugly anime elves? Preferred them to the human models with "knife ears" in DAO. They actually look like a different race now.
Each and every companion LI to be bi-sexual? YES!
Linearity? Depends
Merrill? YES
Fenris? YES
Hawke? He will not be the protagonist of DAIII, that has already been confirmed.

So....who is "right"?

Modifié par Persephone, 22 août 2011 - 02:12 .

[TMZuk]

There's no right or wrong.

There's only opinions. As you may have noted, I started out by asking: What do "I" wish....

However, the general mood on the famed web, and amongst those of my friends who has played DA2, not to mention the failing sales, points toward more people agreeing with me than with you.

But in the end Bioware can make any game they wish (so long EA allows them to do so, of course). But they cannot sell any game they wish, and given the fact that I am pretty certain that the majority of the DA2 sales came from the succes of DA:O, and since Bioware has, IMO, squandered all the goodwill and trust they created with DA:O, they will have to produce something akin to a miracle to get the franchise back on track.

Modifié par TMZuk, 22 août 2011 - 02:25 .

[Persephone]

TMZuk wrote...

There's no right or wrong.

There's only opinions. As you may have noted, I started out by asking: What do "I" wish....

However, the general mood on the famed web, and amongst those of my friends who has played DA2, not to mention the failing sales, points toward more people agreeing with me than with you.

But in the end Bioware can make any game they wish (so long EA allows them to do so, of course). But they cannot sell any game they wish, and given the fact that I am pretty certain that the majority of the DA2 sales came from the succes of DA:O, and since Bioware has, IMO, squandered all the goodwill and trust they created with DA:O, they will have to produce something akin to a miracle to get the franchise back on track.

That's a tad over dramatic. Legacy did very well and if the upcoming DLC continue up that path, the franchise is doing well. Improvements are needed, yes.

But at the end of the day, no matter what Bioware does, there will be outrage.

[RagingCyclone]

Using the above list, what I would like to see:

Recycled environments? No!

Over the top absurd combat? The mage combat was improved in DA2, Rouge was ok except get rid of the cadence: slash-slash-slash-jump-slash-slash-slash-jump IE I laughed more than played. Warrior combat was also laughable. Nobody wearing 80lbs of armor can out jump an Olympic longjumper. Sorry.

Incredibly lame sidequests? No, but if done like they were in Legacy-yes

Just one playable race? No! I like variety and options

Overspecialized classes? yes and no. While some made sense, a warrior would be capable of more styles of combat. Bring back the archery and DW skills for warriors.

A whole city with NPCs and buildings you cannot interact with? Yes and no. I prefer more open spaces like DAO had. While the city was well designed, the blockiness of the graphics translated to areas like the Wounded Coast. Areas like this should feel more organic and natural, in DA2 they were not.

Utter lack of non-combat skills? I wouldn't say it was lack of skills in DA2 but more lack of opportunity to use them. Legacy went a long way to address the lack of puzzles and was a step in the right direction.

Utter inability to solve any problems without combat? See previous answer.

Incredibly ugly anime elves? Here I am again yes and no. I would like to see more consistancy in the elves. Not an elvish look for npc's and then humanize them for companions like Merril and Fenris. Stay consistant.

Each and every companion to be bi-sexual? No! This I agree because if they are all bi then it takes away, imo, a companion's uniqueness. I liked that Morrigan and Alistair were not in DAO because it was part of their personality. Not everyone you meet in the world is bi, it's part of what makes people special. Why lose that in the game?

Linearity? Define this as I am sure many people have a different idea of what defines linearity.

Merrill? No! I would like new companions with new stories.

Fenris? No! See previous answer.

Hawke? No! Already known plus I would not like to see the return of the warden either. A whole new protagonist please.

And an added one, since there will be a new protagonist, and most likely (I hope) not an Amell or Hawke, bring Carver or Bethany back as an LI. (I just personally like Bethany)

[Kaizerzero2]

Jarcander wrote...

So who else is going wait for a review this time instead of pre-ordering?

Hmmm....are we talking the "94% RPG of the decade our-company-got-the-exclusive-preview-so-we-can't-rate-this-thing-any-lower-than-a-90%" or wait a month or 2 for fan reaction?

Yes, I'm a baaaaaad boy!