371 réponses à ce sujet

[alex90c]

Well the difference with Ostagar is that the Warden had walked away by the time Loghain says his little thing, whereas Legacy basically has the surviving Grey Warden act all strangely while Hawke just stands there like

durrrrr

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Well the difference with Ostagar is that the Warden had walked away by the time Loghain says his little thing, whereas Legacy basically has the surviving Grey Warden act all strangely while Hawke just stands there like

durrrrr

The Warden is not walking away, Loghain is. While acting strangely.

And after such a battle, I can forgive the oversight more.

And the Warden always stands there like duuuuurrrrr.

[Lozark]

I dunno. From the moment you meet him Loghain kind of oozes "villain." The moment the warden was told to go light the signal fire to signal the flanking was clearly where it was all going to go wrong. And no one should trust a pale-skinned, dark-haired, irritable and put-upon adviser in a fantasy setting. Ever.

So by Legacy I figure I might as well just accept the trope, move on, and hope to learn more in a future DLC (Hey Bioware? See this money? TAKE IT.).

[Bryy_Miller]

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

[Persephone]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

With this I do disagree. A political speech should never be taken ad verbatim. Never mind that by that point he is entirely cornered. Yet however misguided, he has valid reasons for what he says during that speech. Past redemption? Definitely not. Everything he says past recruitment begs to differ and then some.

[Bryy_Miller]

Persephone wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

With this I do disagree. A political speech should never be taken ad verbatim. Never mind that by that point he is entirely cornered. Yet however misguided, he has valid reasons for what he says during that speech. Past redemption? Definitely not. Everything he says past recruitment begs to differ and then some.

I actually thought Loghain's recruitment, while a nice twist, was completely baffling given his previous statements. And this is coming from a guy that loves redemption stories. 

[Sylvianus]

It is precisely in the landmeet ( epiiiiic <3 ) that  Loghain takes all his depth, we understand he is human, and it's not the monster we thought initially at Ostagar. Plus, he is really convincing, that's why I understand why so many nobles followed him.

But hell, my warden was more eloquent than him. 

Modifié par Sylvianus, 27 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Persephone wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

With this I do disagree. A political speech should never be taken ad verbatim. Never mind that by that point he is entirely cornered. Yet however misguided, he has valid reasons for what he says during that speech. Past redemption? Definitely not. Everything he says past recruitment begs to differ and then some.

I loved the talks with him. At one point he really made me scratch my head and felt I was trapped. *laughs*

[bEVEsthda]

Persephone wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

With this I do disagree. A political speech should never be taken ad verbatim. Never mind that by that point he is entirely cornered. Yet however misguided, he has valid reasons for what he says during that speech. Past redemption? Definitely not. Everything he says past recruitment begs to differ and then some.

Loghain can be understood. And that's a great villain. That a villain can be understood, doesn't mean that he's a good guy at heart, frankly. No, whatever reasons for his actions, those actions are still foul, and I do not think him deserving redemption. Luckily, the game lets us do as we want according to our own morals and beliefs.

Personally, I would always be concerned how a redemption of Loghain would reflect on aftermath politics, the lifes, fates and afterwords of all those who had fought against Loghain's all injustices, those tortured and killed, bereft of their lands and belongings, and their families.
It leaves a foul taste in my mouth to let Loghain go down as a hero. Not just an injustice to history, making it possible for all the lies to continue to thrive amongst his many followers, pissing on all those fallen at Ostagar and elsewhere, but almost certainly also the road to continued injustices towards those still alive, who had resisted Loghain. (the story is not quite written that way, only hints in awakening, but would be a normal concern.)

It would be possible for Loghain to take redemption, but the game doesn't explore that, he must be given redemption and I'll not do that as a human noble or as a city elf. For the sake of a lot of people better than Loghain, the afterword of Loghain must be villain.

[Persephone]

Sylvianus wrote...

It is precisely in the landmeet ( epiiiiic <3 ) that  Loghain takes all his depth, we understand he is human, and it's not the monster we thought initially at Ostagar. Plus, he is really convincing, that's why I understand why so many nobles followed him.

But hell, my warden was more eloquent than him. 

As was mine.

I never thought he was a monster to begin with. He has reasons, good ones at that, for the tactical retreat at Ostagar, sedating Eamon as well as despising the Wardens. Misguided still, yes. And there is no moral excuse for slavery. Even though many of the most revered rulers made tons of cash through slavery (Elizabeth I.) and are not reduced to that dark spot on their legacy.

Granting him redemption is fantastic IMO. As for him staying alive diminishing the memory of those fallen at Ostagar....I can only quote Loghain: What form of penance matters to a dead man?

Those who matter know. Anything else matters little. IMHO.

[Lotion Soronarr]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Loghain can be understood. And that's a great villain. That a villain can be understood, doesn't mean that he's a good guy at heart, frankly. No, whatever reasons for his actions, those actions are still foul, and I do not think him deserving redemption. Luckily, the game lets us do as we want according to our own morals and beliefs.

Personally, I would always be concerned how a redemption of Loghain would reflect on aftermath politics, the lifes, fates and afterwords of all those who had fought against Loghain's all injustices, those tortured and killed, bereft of their lands and belongings, and their families.
It leaves a foul taste in my mouth to let Loghain go down as a hero. Not just an injustice to history, making it possible for all the lies to continue to thrive amongst his many followers, pissing on all those fallen at Ostagar and elsewhere, but almost certainly also the road to continued injustices towards those still alive, who had resisted Loghain. (the story is not quite written that way, only hints in awakening, but would be a normal concern.)

It would be possible for Loghain to take redemption, but the game doesn't explore that, he must be given redemption and I'll not do that as a human noble or as a city elf. For the sake of a lot of people better than Loghain, the afterword of Loghain must be villain.

QFT.

[Tiglatpilesar]

Persephone wrote...



I never thought he was a monster to begin with. He has reasons, good ones at that, for the tactical retreat at Ostagar, sedating Eamon as well as despising the Wardens. Misguided still, yes. And there is no moral excuse for slavery. Even though many of the most revered rulers made tons of cash through slavery (Elizabeth I.) and are not reduced to that dark spot on their legacy.

Granting him redemption is fantastic IMO. As for him staying alive diminishing the memory of those fallen at Ostagar....I can only quote Loghain: What form of penance matters to a dead man?

Those who matter know. Anything else matters little. IMHO.

And yet he's a ruler/politician and as such when judging him reasons and motives doesn't matter that much as results. Queen Elizabeth  was succesful ruler while Loghain is not, moral question aside, his actions didn't make Ferelden stronger and more united but weaker, divided on the break on civil war.

[Lord Gremlin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

Not really. He honestly believed he did the best thing for everybody. Of course he was wrong, but then again he couldn't hear Archdemon. He had every reason to believe that Orlesians are using Darkspawn/Warden stuff as decoy to inavde Ferelden. Consider The Calling: Orlesian mage spies conspiring with a Darkspawn to take over Ferelden. Sure, that was not the case in Origins, but Loghain had every reason to do what he did.

[Costin_Razvan]

For some Loghain might be a villain for others he could just be an antagonist whom you can understand and even agree with on many points. The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

I can agree that people can have their own views on the matter, and if they want to make Loghain a villain in their own view then so be it, but don't try and shove it down the throats of people who don't agree with that, especially the people who thought they had a ****ing CHOICE in the matter of how to view Loghain only for Bioware to basically **** on us with the newest item pack.


As for DA3 being the best of both worlds, if it has Gaider going again that they need to main supporting male character to be weak as to not overshadow the main character ( or something along those lines was said about Alistair ) then I am not going to get it. Which would be a change for me since I've played every game since KOTOR made by Bioware, but since Gaider has the mentality of a 5 year old when it comes to a lot of stuff then screw it. 

People can whine all they want about the combat developers forcing you to fight Orsino no matter what, but it was still Gaider who created the ****ty plotline with the idol making Meredith mad.

I loathe to make this analogy but seriously the Witcher 2 had ****ing Roche and Iorveth who were some of the most badass characters in the game yet they were Geralt's sidekicks.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 août 2011 - 03:02 .

[Tiglatpilesar]

Lord Gremlin wrote...


Not really. He honestly believed he did the best thing for everybody. Of course he was wrong, but then again he couldn't hear Archdemon. He had every reason to believe that Orlesians are using Darkspawn/Warden stuff as decoy to inavde Ferelden. Consider The Calling: Orlesian mage spies conspiring with a Darkspawn to take over Ferelden. Sure, that was not the case in Origins, but Loghain had every reason to do what he did.

Reasons don't matter in politics, results do. The result isn't Ferelden stronger and more capable of deafiting Orlesians but weaker, divided and easier prey.

[Nerevar-as]

Ironically he saved the country from being absorbed into Orlais through Cailan´s marrying Celene (anyone doubts who would wear the pants in politics there?). DA2 hints Celene either can´t control Orlesian nobility imperialism tendencies or pretends not to, so I´m half-expecting another war in the near future.

I hope Gaider and co don´t pack too much in the plot. We already have mage - templar war, whatever GW are involved with, qunari on the horizon, Flemeth & Morrigan,... it might be more than can be resolved with the attnetion each issue deserves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

Becasue a marriage is the end of the world?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[Bakuzen]

DA3 being "the best of both worlds" ...I certainly hope not. Who would want to play a game that's parts of previous games fused together? I certainly hope that Bioware is going to be taking things from both games and IMPROVING on them. Making them into something new and better...as well as adding a lot more delightful surprises. Otherwise it'd be a bit boring...
Fighting action is fun in DA2...but def. needs to be slowed down a tad bit. I like to be able to see my characters hacking and slashing Customization def. needs to come back.... It was announced somewhere that the main for DA3 is not going to be the Warden or Hawke.... So I'm guessing it's going to be a character that can be fully customized - race, class etc. More sub-classes would be nice too. I really loved the shapeshifter class in DAO....wish there were more animals and other critters to change into though. Hopefully there's more hair style choices etc..... I'm tired of being jealous of people who play the game on the PC...using their mods and such. I s'pose Bioware could also develop download content packets that contain mods for the game for all systems after it's released (with more customization options, weapons, etc)...who knows -dlc's seem to be getting more and more popular. More voice choices would be nice. Though I think it's completely understandable why Hawke didn't have a lot of choices. That's a lot of dialogue... but having a fully voiced main character was nice. Having no voice and pretty much no emotions in DAO was a bit weird.... the main characters just cranes their head and stares blankly at people while they talk and never says anything aloud.
They def. need to bring back the ability to change your peoples armor. It's fun playing dress up with your followers It's be nice if they brought that to a dif. level though. For example....instead of just picking up dead peoples armor and wearing it all the time you could go to a smith (like Wade) and have actual custom armor built for you or your other characters. Select from light/heavy armor. Select from a few different models and parts of the models and build your own set...that way you can choose to have silly feather pauldrons or not. Be able to customize color and logos on the armor would be nice too. You could change logos in Halo.... in Assassins Creed you can change your and your followers outfits color. In Morrowind and Oblivion you can take off dead mens clothing and make them wear dresses... not very feasible for DA but still heaps fun.

[Bullets McDeath]

Sylvianus wrote...

It is precisely in the landmeet ( epiiiiic <3 ) that  Loghain takes all his depth, we understand he is human, and it's not the monster we thought initially at Ostagar. Plus, he is really convincing, that's why I understand why so many nobles followed him.

But hell, my warden was more eloquent than him. 

But wouldn't it have been better if he'd just said "Noblemen and women of this great country of Ferelden, I implore you to look beyond the darkness of my actions and understand that I had to sell the elves as slaves in order to ACQUIRE SOUL EDGE BLURGAAAAAAAAAAAAAA- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA- HHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!" and then morphed into RoboLoghain Form 1 for the boss fight?

Things like this are what I imagine when I hear "the best of Origins and DA2", of course my view of what was "best" about DA2 might not match others

[Persephone]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

Becasue a marriage is the end of the world?

Never mind that I find betraying your loyal and competent wife to be disgusting....

But marrying Celene is selling out his country to the enemy, the political consequences would be severe. Never mind the brat spitting into the face of his own father's legacy. The freedom, the independence he and Loghain shed blood for to achieve. Thousands of men and women gave their lives during the rebellion. There would have been civil war and a major outrage, if this marriage had taken place. Thank God it never did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tiglatpilesar wrote...
Reasons don't matter in politics, results do. The result isn't Ferelden stronger and more capable of deafiting Orlesians but weaker, divided and easier prey.

Indeed, but in judging a person and not solely his policies / actions, intentions matter.
And if I wanted to punish people for causing this, I would have annihilated every single Bann from existence before killing Loghain.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Persephone wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

Becasue a marriage is the end of the world?

Never mind that I find betraying your loyal and competent wife to be disgusting....

But marrying Celene is selling out his country to the enemy, the political consequences would be severe. Never mind the brat spitting into the face of his own father's legacy. The freedom, the independence he and Loghain shed blood for to achieve. Thousands of men and women gave their lives during the rebellion. There would have been civil war and a major outrage, if this marriage had taken place. Thank God it never did.

I thought all that was Eamon's idea and Cailan strongly disliked the idea of leaving Anora?

[Bryy_Miller]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain is a villain. I was skeptical of him being a real bad guy until I actually heard his speech at the Landsmeet. He's way past redemption.

With this I do disagree. A political speech should never be taken ad verbatim. Never mind that by that point he is entirely cornered. Yet however misguided, he has valid reasons for what he says during that speech. Past redemption? Definitely not. Everything he says past recruitment begs to differ and then some.

Loghain can be understood. And that's a great villain. That a villain can be understood, doesn't mean that he's a good guy at heart, frankly. No, whatever reasons for his actions, those actions are still foul, and I do not think him deserving redemption.

This.

Loghain has meat and merit. You get where he is coming from, and you pity him because his logic has become so twisted.

[Lozark]

Is it ever actually mentioned in DAO that Cailan was really, actually going to betray Ferelden to the Orlesians? Because from what I remember in-game it just looks like some extra Wardens from Orlais were coming to help and Loghain was blowing that way out of proportion. They really should have let us see more of the dynamic between Cailan/Loghain/politics in game, because as it stands the narrative seems really simple.

[Nerevar-as]

It was very heavily hinted in RtO DLC. Loghain was paranoid because he thought the GW worked with the orlesians and those would take the chance to nvade Ferelden again. Turns out the danger came from another direction, but with Cailan gone its gone, unless Alistair plays the same idiot ball.