371 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair who is basically influenced by Eamon easily while on the throne?

Yeah...it's going to happen.

[Nerevar-as]

Mine is unhappily married to Anora and hardened, so hopefully it won´t, despite DA2 suggesting he buys Celene´s excuses (IMHO) about the nobility being the imperialist ones.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Persephone wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

Becasue a marriage is the end of the world?

Never mind that I find betraying your loyal and competent wife to be disgusting....

But marrying Celene is selling out his country to the enemy, the political consequences would be severe. Never mind the brat spitting into the face of his own father's legacy. The freedom, the independence he and Loghain shed blood for to achieve. Thousands of men and women gave their lives during the rebellion. There would have been civil war and a major outrage, if this marriage had taken place. Thank God it never did.

News flash - marriage betwen nobles, kings, queens, princesses - it's not hing new. That's not treason. That's not selling out.
Even moreso when you don't know the details of how and why. Nor how it would turn out in the end. And Loghians killing of Cailan ended up in a civil war anyway. Big improvement....

Not to mention that IIRC, there was nothing certain about the marriage actually ever happening.

[Faunwea]

Bring on the changes!

[Costin_Razvan]

News flash - marriage betwen nobles, kings, queens, princesses - it's not hing new. That's not treason. That's not selling out.
Even moreso when you don't know the details of how and why. Nor how it would turn out in the end. And Loghians killing of Cailan ended up in a civil war anyway. Big improvement....

Not to mention that IIRC, there was nothing certain about the marriage actually ever happening.

Gaider confirmed it in a interview, but here we go again I bet with you saying it doesn't matter since it's not presented in game.

As for marriages between kings and queens..they often end in political unions and since Cailan is a young, naive, untrained politician how long do you think it would take for Celene to take over the country?

Look, if you want to look at Loghain as an oppressive ruler then by all means do so, but don't try and portray Loghain in a bad light by trying to defend Cailan, there are enough arguments to be had against Loghain without bringing Cailan in the discussion.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not to mention that IIRC, there was nothing certain about the marriage actually ever happening.

Gaider confirmed that it was at least close.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for marriages between kings and queens..they often end in political unions and since Cailan is a young, naive, untrained politician how long do you think it would take for Celene to take over the country?

Look, if you want to look at Loghain as an oppressive ruler then by all means do so, but don't try and portray Loghain in a bad light by trying to defend Cailan, there are enough arguments to be had against Loghain without bringing Cailan in the discussion.

You are free to assume the worst, that doesn't mean I will.
You truly belive Celene would take over completley? You truly believe Cailan would just let it? TI's nto liek has advisors and stuff.

If killing Cailan is OK because you assume what he (potentialy) does will result in the wrost possible consequence, then try to apply that rule to everyone. By that logic, you should be killing off half of Ferleden..and half of TheDas while you're at it.

[Costin_Razvan]

You are free to assume the worst, that doesn't mean I will.
You truly belive Celene would take over completley? You truly believe Cailan would just let it? TI's nto liek has advisors and stuff.

If killing Cailan is OK because you assume what he (potentialy) does will result in the wrost possible consequence, then try to apply that rule to everyone. By that logic, you should be killing off half of Ferleden..and half of TheDas while you're at it.

Then bring a logical argument to the table other then "I feel this". Cailan's name means child, he is considered immature ( even hinted by Duncan ) and know Anora was the one who really ruled the country and not him. He also fought a battle he believed he could not win just for the "glory"

Celene is a sharp politician who managed to assassinate her uncle and take the throne while fending off her cousins.

So do please provide a logical argument to that, not something based on emotions or idealism.

Also Gaider mentioned it himself during an interview that Cailan WAS going to do abandon Anora and marry Celene to become Emperor.

Again feel free to have your personal opinion on the matter, but my point with my original post in my thread is that other people DO have a different viewpoint and just because it doesn't match up to yours it shouldn't be discarded.

Though apparently Bioware has decided to make Loghain a villain regardless of one's choices so what the hell should I care anyway right? ( Refering to Item Pack 2 codex entry for Loghain ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 août 2011 - 10:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Then bring a logical argument to the table other then "I feel this". Cailan's name means child, he is considered immature ( even hinted by Duncan ) and know Anora was the one who really ruled the country and not him. He also fought a battle he believed he could not win just for the "glory"

Celene is a sharp politician who managed to assassinate her uncle and take the throne while fending off her cousins.

So do please provide a logical argument to that, not something based on emotions or idealism.

The meaning of a name is irrelevant.

Cailain was idealistic, but not stupid. As to how much did Anora rule, that's up to debate. As I said again, Cailan would have advisors.

So no, you got no proof that the marriage would automaticly ruin Ferelden. Even moreso when you don't know what Celene would do.

[Gunderic]

Persephone wrote...

The fact that the PLAYER can tell something at the end of Legacy (Something that's out of Hawke's field of vision) does not condemn the protagonist. It's one of the oldest storytelling devices ever. Upon arriving at Ostagar, I knew Loghain would be trouble, esp. after "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all........*Insert subtle as a sledgehammer villain cliché*". Could I speak up/intervene/warn anyone? No? Dim witted, foolish Warden.....er plot armor!!!! 

Warn anyone about what? They all heard Loghain's foreshadowing too. Duncan, Cailan etc. were all there. Not that I necessarily oppose discussing Loghain's intentions at all; it's just hardly something you could convince anyone to take action over ( especially when they all heard the conversation themselves ).

The warden Corypheus possesses starts talking like Yoda. You should have been given the option to whack him then and there for his lack of subtlety. Or question him/her further, at least ( then whack Corypheus ). You can't afford to do that with Loghain at all.

Modifié par Gunderic, 28 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Cailain was idealistic, but not stupid. As to how much did Anora rule, that's up to debate. As I said again, Cailan would have advisors.

So no, you got no proof that the marriage would automaticly ruin Ferelden. Even moreso when you don't know what Celene would do.

How is it NOT stupid to take part in a battle you feel you cannot win? How is it NOT stupid to not retreat when you feel you cannot win a battle, how is NOT stupid to want to marry the ****ing Empress who leads a country your own was at war until 10 years ago ( peace was only declared when Florian was killed by Celene ). How is NOT stupid to listen to Eamon who is married to an Orlesian noble ( for analogy sake it would be like Obama listening to the council of someone married with a Taliban politician ). How is NOT stupid to dump your wife who is the daughter of one of the most powerful and respected noble and general in Fereldan. How is NOT stupid to think you can achieve such a marriage without a civil war in Fereldan when a lot of Fereldans despise Orlais.

No I don't have proof, all I have is my logic which I can back based on my historic knowledge of how nobles behaved. Read up on the Scottish-English political union under James to realize what such a political union would result in, or perhaps the Polish-Swedish Union which resulted in a civil war.

And yes a marriage between two monarchs, neither of which have children, would result in a political union between the two countries once they had a child to inherit both thrones.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[Edhriano]

Hmm ... I am not sure I like this 'the best of both worlds' gig .

I mean I like beef steak, and I like Ice cream, would I like beef steak with ice cream on top?
I don't think so ....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote..

How is it NOT stupid to take part in a battle you feel you cannot win?

Who said you cannot win? Cailan certanly thought they could. The officers you talk to are also confident in victory.

How is it NOT stupid to not retreat when you feel you cannot win a battle,

That depends..Can you retreat fro ma certain position at all? Are you in position to see you cannot win?
Remember, Loghain was supposed to flank the darkspawn.

how is NOT stupid to want to marry the ****ing Empress who leads a country your own was at war until 10 years ago ( peace was only declared when Florian was killed by Celene ).

You mean the same empress who effecivey ended the war?

How is NOT stupid to listen to Eamon who is married to an Orlesian noble ( for analogy sake it would be like Obama listening to the council of someone married with a Taliban politician ).

So? Eamons quality as an advisor has nothing to do with whom he marries.
Eamons wife is an Orlesian noble. Thats' it. Your analogue falls flat.
Not stupid at all.

How is NOT stupid to dump your wife who is the daughter of one of the most powerful and respected noble and general in Fereldan.

You mean the frigid and power-hungry Anora? Daughter of a crazy and paranoid general?
Nope, not stupid at all.

How is NOT stupid to think you can achieve such a marriage without a civil war in Fereldan when a lot of Fereldans despise Orlais.

That reamins to be seen. There wasn' t even a civil war in Ferelden after Loghains coup untill AFTER Eamon started it.

No I don't have proof, all I have is my logic which I can back based on my historic knowledge of how nobles behaved. Read up on the Scottish-English political union under James to realize what such a political union would result in, or perhaps the Polish-Swedish Union which resulted in a civil war.

And yes a marriage between two monarchs, neither of which have children, would result in a political union between the two countries once they had a child to inherit both thrones.

You have to prove it would end up bad for Ferleden. You'd have to prove the child would favor Orlais over Ferelden - assumign it even treats them as separate.

[Barry Bathernak]

can you guys stop this i mean really who cares how the marriage would have been since you took a good thread and ruined it by going very far off topic.

[schalafi]

Since these forums have over 2 million members, all with solid opinions of their own, it's going to be hard to find much agreement, especially over the topic of how DA3 should be. Personally, I liked both games for different reasons... Origins for it's attention to detail, it's interesting characters and plot,, and the ability to travel farther than in just one city. However there were flaws in Origins too. I found the battles slow and when playing a mage, the spells took too long to connect, plus I didn't like the friendly fire, and if I ever see another lyrium potion as loot, I'll scream.

In DA2, of course I agree with the dislike of the repeated dungeons, the multiplying enemies, the mostly useless trash instead of loot, and the inability to change your npc's equipment or armor. However,the fighting, as a mage in my case, was sooo much better than in Origins. The spells worked quickly, and some with devestating results, and no friendly fire on lower levels of difficulty.

I think a lot of people missed the point when they said there wasn't a real plot in DA2. I found that the plot revealed itself more in each act, and by act 3 there was no doubt in my mind that it was a mage vs templar conflict. Also, I really liked the voiced protagonist, I was tired of having to look at my pc's back while he/she recited the line I had picked. Best of all, the npc's stories were interesting and well written.

As far as the writing, I thought it was superb, as usual, for both games, after all, that's one of the things Bioware does better than any other game developers, IMO

I like the idea of combining the best of both games for DA3. After all creativity is always a learning process, so if the  feedback from the fans has any influence, both negative and positive, I hope Bioware will (pleasantly)  surprise us with DA3.

Modifié par schalafi, 31 août 2011 - 04:49 .

[King Minos]

Jut wondering, does anyone know what the situation is with Orlais and the circle of magi rebellion? Will there be a war?

[Kastagir]

I'm just here for the amusing images.

[Feanor_II]

It doesn't give much hope because except from the skills structured on tree form a preffer DA:O for everything else over DA2

[Pasquale1234]

IanPolaris wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

There can be no half measures. There can be no compromise. -Anders

I hate to say it, but I think this is probabaly right.  The customer base is too polarized.  If you go please one set, the other will feel slighted so if you try to please them both, you will alienate everyone.

-Polaris

Agreed.

And given the relative sales figures, I know which group I would be aiming to please.

But all I'm hearing from the devs is that the current plan is to stay the course of DA2, with an occasional bone thrown at the DAO fanbase.  I guess we'll see how well that works for them.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
And given the relative sales figures, I know which group I would be aiming to please.

The DA2 fanbase, since DA2 only had 700,000 pre-orders despite DA:O selling 4,000,000 copies, and Awakening flopped?

Modifié par In Exile, 01 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[Fallstar]

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
And given the relative sales figures, I know which group I would be aiming to please.

The DA2 fanbase, since DA2 only had 700,000 pre-orders despite DA:O selling 4,000,000 copies, and Awakening flopped?

1. Not everyone was silly enough to pre-order
2. After those pre-orders and first couple of weeks sales, what happened to DA:2 sales? Oh yeah:o

Although DA:2 was probably more of a financial success than Origins. Origins sold what, 4 million, and DA:2 sold 2, but the devs spent about three times as much time on Origins. 

Still, I think the game would sell better by appealing to the Origins fans. If you appealed to the DA:2 side of things, I'm guessing a lot of people who hated DA:2 won't make the same mistake again. Whereas there wasn't a great deal of 'hate' for Origins, so you'll probably get more sales.

[Oopsieoops]

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
And given the relative sales figures, I know which group I would be aiming to please.

The DA2 fanbase, since DA2 only had 700,000 pre-orders despite DA:O selling 4,000,000 copies, and Awakening flopped?

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all. DAO sales were consistently much much higher than DA2's in every respective period save for pre orders. And the only reason DA2 preorders were so high was because it piggy-backed on DAO's reputation.
You use DA2 preorders as an argument for the game, while it should be against. A lot of people refused to preorder or even actually canceled their preorders when they discovered DA2 had nothing to do with DAO (I actually did cancel my preorder right after playing the demo, and bought a 2nd hand copy a few weeks afterwards).
As for Awakenings if it flopped I'd say it had more to do with it being so rushed and bugged than any fault on DAO's part.

[Oopsieoops]

DuskWarden wrote...
Although DA:2 was probably more of a financial success than Origins. Origins sold what, 4 million, and DA:2 sold 2, but the devs spent about three times as much time on Origins.

We have to remmeber not only that a lot of sales from DA2 was precisely due to DAO, but that part of every other DA game development time was inbued into DAO. DAO took 5 years not just beacuse of DAO itself, but also because they were developing the lore, the setting, etc which would be used in every other instalment of the franchise. So if we were to calculate DAO's profitability we would have to subtract a good deal from the costs, and conversely add to it in the case of DA2.

[In Exile]

DuskWarden wrote...
1. Not everyone was silly enough to pre-order
2. After those pre-orders and first couple of weeks sales, what happened to DA:2 sales?

Although DA:2 was probably more of a financial success than Origins. Origins sold what, 4 million, and DA:2 sold 2, but the devs spent about three times as much time on Origins.  

You missed the point. By a country mile.

Talking about what game is the finacially sound decision is all spin. We don't know what DA:O cost. We don't know what DA2 cost. We don't know how much of the fanbase Bioware lost with DA2 period, and won't gain back at all. We don't know how many people bought DA:O and wrote off the series. 

Still, I think the game would sell better by appealing to the Origins fans. If you appealed to the DA:2 side of things, I'm guessing a lot of people who hated DA:2 won't make the same mistake again. Whereas there wasn't a great deal of 'hate' for Origins, so you'll probably get more sales.

Why do you think "lack of hate" (i.e. the public vitrol) means 4,000,000 satified customers? That's the fallacy.

Oopsieoops wrote...
Your argument doesn't make any sense at all. DAO sales were consistently much much higher than DA2's in every respective period save for pre orders. And the only reason DA2 preorders were so high was because it piggy-backed on DAO's reputation. 

My "argument" isn't an argument. My statement is just pointless spin - to draw out responses like yours to show the ridiculousness of arm-chair financial analysis. 

DA:O sold lots of games - by great word of mouth. And unless you're psychic, you can't tell what % of those who purchased DA:O were satisfied with DA:O. 

You say: DA:O made all the DA2 pre-orders. I'm saying the exact same thing: DA:O was such a brilliant game that less than 1 in 4 people who bought it pre-ordered DA2. Does that mean they hated DA:O's gameplay and wrote it off? That they loved DA:O, researched DA2 and hated it? Who knows! That's the point.

You use DA2 preorders as an argument for the game, while it should be against. A lot of people refused to preorder or even actually canceled their preorders when they discovered DA2 had nothing to do with DAO (I actually did cancel my preorder right after playing the demo, and bought a 2nd hand copy a few weeks afterwards).

You're talking about bad arguments... but you don't think making up reactions to a game and justifications for the pre-order #s is the worst possible form of meaningless rhetoric?

As for Awakenings if it flopped I'd say it had more to do with it being so rushed and bugged than any fault on DAO's part.

Because on release, DA:O fans totally researched that, and it had nothing to do with the reception of DA:O, and they totally pre-ordered 4,000,000 copies because of how much they loved DA:O and how DA:A had 0 gameplay, 0 art-style and 0 combat changes from DA:O right, and even had the Warden right?

But the bugs were so horrid, it sold even less than DA2. Yup, totally the most reasonable explanation. 

[Mike3207]

I hope it will be more like DAO than DA2-and I still don't know how my Warden Cousland should have been hard to find when he was near the Fereldan throne(if not on it). I'm hoping to get a reasonable explanation from Bioware on that. Last thing I heard is that he and Anora were to trying to bring military officers back to Ferelden 7 years after the Blight.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .