371 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Oopsieoops wrote...
We have to remmeber not only that a lot of sales from DA2 was precisely due to DAO, but that part of every other DA game development time was inbued into DAO. DAO took 5 years not just beacuse of DAO itself, but also because they were developing the lore, the setting, etc which would be used in every other instalment of the franchise. So if we were to calculate DAO's profitability we would have to subtract a good deal from the costs, and conversely add to it in the case of DA2.

Speaking of bad arguments, this is even worse.

Writers sitting in a room and inventing the setting isn't costly. The develop of a game is the actual development, when you're paying the salary of animators, programmers, developers, etc. and you're investing time and use in computers, office space, electricity. 

The setting for DA:O was very clear to us since DA:O was announced. It wasn't as fleshed out as it is now, obviously, but back in 2005 there was a very clear direction for what the story was.

What you're thinking of is the pre-production work, but that comes before the game is announced to the public. 

[Oopsieoops]

In Exile wrote...

Oopsieoops wrote...
Your argument doesn't make any sense at all. DAO sales were consistently much much higher than DA2's in every respective period save for pre orders. And the only reason DA2 preorders were so high was because it piggy-backed on DAO's reputation. 

My "argument" isn't an argument. My statement is just pointless spin - to draw out responses like yours to show the ridiculousness of arm-chair financial analysis. 

Sure.

DA:O sold lots of games - by great word of mouth. And unless you're psychic, you can't tell what % of those who purchased DA:O were satisfied with DA:O. 

No, neither did I attempt to.

You say: DA:O made all the DA2 pre-orders. I'm saying the exact same thing: DA:O was such a brilliant game that less than 1 in 4 people who bought it pre-ordered DA2. Does that mean they hated DA:O's gameplay and wrote it off? That they loved DA:O, researched DA2 and hated it? Who knows! That's the point.

Judging from the particularly steep drop from the the pre orders to the second week, you can make a pretty reasonble guess as to what transpired unless you're the type of blind that refuses to see.

You use DA2 preorders as an argument for the game, while it should be against. A lot of people refused to preorder or even actually canceled their preorders when they discovered DA2 had nothing to do with DAO (I actually did cancel my preorder right after playing the demo, and bought a 2nd hand copy a few weeks afterwards).

You're talking about bad arguments... but you don't think making up reactions to a game and justifications for the pre-order #s is the worst possible form of meaningless rhetoric?

I'm not making up reactions, I'm describing them from my observation and personal experience. They're anecdotal and as such you should take them for what they are. Still without hard evidence for neither interpretation each is as valid as the other.

As for Awakenings if it flopped I'd say it had more to do with it being so rushed and bugged than any fault on DAO's part.

Because on release, DA:O fans totally researched that, and it had nothing to do with the reception of DA:O, and they totally pre-ordered 4,000,000 copies because of how much they loved DA:O and how DA:A had 0 gameplay, 0 art-style and 0 combat changes from DA:O right, and even had the Warden right?

But the bugs were so horrid, it sold even less than DA2. Yup, totally the most reasonable explanation. 

Hey cute strawman you got there. Firstly nothing was said about near release sales for Awakenigs. Secondly expansions generally sell less than the base game. Thridly word of mouth spread quickly, and from the anouncements of estimate playtime released by BW itself you could see it would be at least overpriced.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Persephone]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 The fact is Cailan is not innocent in what happened at Ostagar and he also planning to marry Celene and betray Fereldan ( not Anora but the whole damned ****ing country ).

Becasue a marriage is the end of the world?

Never mind that I find betraying your loyal and competent wife to be disgusting....

But marrying Celene is selling out his country to the enemy, the political consequences would be severe. Never mind the brat spitting into the face of his own father's legacy. The freedom, the independence he and Loghain shed blood for to achieve. Thousands of men and women gave their lives during the rebellion. There would have been civil war and a major outrage, if this marriage had taken place. Thank God it never did.

News flash - marriage betwen nobles, kings, queens, princesses - it's not hing new. That's not treason. That's not selling out.

It's the ultimate, selfish betrayal of his country, his father, his wife and everyone who fought for years to gain Ferelden's freedom. Like it or not, but Cailan would have sacrificed everything his father ever fought for....and for that alone I despise him. That's how I feel and I am not changing my mind on that.

[Persephone]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean the frigid and power-hungry Anora? Daughter of a crazy and paranoid general?
Nope, not stupid at all.

What is it with the sexism? What the hell makes you think Anora is "frigid"? Because she doesn't bat her eye lashes and flirt with your manly Warden? 

Power hungry? A queen, a competent ruler who wants to keep her position and will not let herself be deposed by an untrained, illegitimate and unfit to rule boy is "power hungry". I see....were you expecting her to go "Oh, mighty Warden, depose me. And if you want to kill my father while you are at it, suuuuure!"??? WTF?

Loghain is a lot of things but crazy he is not. And RTO and DAII actually confirm his so called "paranoia". Never mind the people of Ferelden revering him as a hero.

Yes, definitely stupid.:innocent:

[Costin_Razvan]

 

Who said you cannot win? Cailan certanly thought they could. The officers you talk to are also confident in victory.

Which ones. I've seen a guard saying Loghain doesn't think three regiments of troops won't be enough, some soldier say the Teyrn is worried while Cailan is confident.

That depends..Can you retreat fro ma certain position at all? Are you in position to see you cannot win?Remember, Loghain was supposed to flank the darkspawn.

During a battle for a medieval army? It would take a skilled general to pull it off ( Which Cailan is not, and you won't convince me otherwise after he charges with his army in that stupid cinematic...instead of doing the logical thing when he is supposed to be a force meant to pin the Darkspawn...and that is to form a shield wall. ) What I meant is before the actual battle. 

So? Eamons quality as an advisor has nothing to do with whom he marries. Eamons wife is an Orlesian noble. Thats' it. Your analogue falls flat.Not stupid at all.

And I'm sure that Orlesian noble wife of his wouldn't influence him in any way, and I'm sure she wouldn't mind the power and prestige she would get from the marriage if Eamon made it happen.

You mean the frigid and power-hungry Anora? Daughter of a crazy and paranoid general?Nope, not stupid at all.

Your point? How does that negate the fact that Anora and Loghain are both very popular among nobles and/or both ( depending on who you talk about ) and that pissing both off when trying to pull a marriage with the leader of a former enemy kingdom that committed vast attrocities in your land isn't the wisest course of action.

 That reamins to be seen. There wasn' t even a civil war in Ferelden after Loghains coup untill AFTER Eamon started it.

How is that so? You'de have to go for Redcliff first then Urn second for it to even be possibly pinned on Eamon and even then you have the Assassination cinematic where Howe informs Loghain of forces gathering against him, and since you go to Denerim for the urn quest you can pick up a Chanter's Board quest that puts you right in the middle of a battle between Loghain troops and that of a Bann.

You have to prove it would end up bad for Ferleden. You'd have to prove the child would favor Orlais over Ferelden - assumign it even treats them as separate.

The child? Hmmph assuming Cailan even keeps Fereldan by the time he/she is born. Or do you think "the crazed general" or "power hungry ****" would ever let it pass without begining a civil war?

Nobles like Howe, Bryland ( who both almost lost their lives at white River ) Sighard ( who had his son kidnapped )  would never agree to it given their past with the Orlesians. That leaves Eamon, Wullf, Alfstanna, Ceorlic ( who supports Loghain regardless of what you do, but eh is a coward so who knows ) and Urien ( who dies at Ostagar during the game ) who we don't really know who they would side with ( Eamon I bet will side with Orlais ).

So there, even in the situation where Ceorlic, Wullf, Alfstanna and Urien all side with Orlais ( which I personally doubt but you don't really get to know how much they care about Fereldan's indepence )  you still have 3 powerful nobles besides Loghain fighting against Orlais if Cailan were to abandon Anora to marry Celene. 

So tell me how exactly do you not see this as a disaster to Fereldan? Do you trully believe this can be a marriage of equals when Fereldan would be unstable, where Orlais has a strong powerful standing army whereas Fereldan has to call on individual nobles to raise one, where Orlais is dominant culturally and econimicaly?

[In Exile]

Oopsieoops wrote...
No, neither did I attempt to.

Oh, then let me quote you:

"A lot of people refused to preorder or even actually canceled their preorders when they discovered DA2 had nothing to do with DAO (I actually did cancel my preorder right after playing the demo, and bought a 2nd hand copy a few weeks afterwards)."

So that wasn't you trying to predict the reason for the pre-orders, or extrapolate your own behaviour? You could have fooled me. Especially when we look at how you said "A lot of people" and then gave the reasons those people would have. 

Judging from the particularly steep drop from the the pre orders to the second week, you can make a pretty reasonble guess as to what transpired unless you're the type of blind that refuses to see.

An equally reasonable guess is that DA:O satisfied only 1 in 4 gamers, the majority of who pre-ordered, with the rest of the sales dropping after poor word-of-mouth by a portion of the fanbase who loved DA:O and were irate at the changes.

Or, alternatively, that DA:O dissapointed so much that the majority of gamers outside of the core fanbase just wouldn't purchase the game at all, no matter what. So aside from the pre-order crowd, there was no user base left to buy the game. 

Each of these is possible based on the scant data we have. Unless, you know, you have an agenda. 

I'm not making up reactions, I'm describing them from my observation and personal experience. They're anecdotal and as such you should take them for what they are. Still without hard evidence for neither interpretation each is as valid as the other.

It's funny you say that each intepretation is as valid as the other.... right after saying that I have to be blind not to see that your interpretation is right. 

Because my point is that each interpretation is as valid as the other, so I don't see how we would even have this discussion if you agreed with that.

Hey cute strawman you got there.

I think you need to re-read what a strawman is. Mockery is not a strawman.

Firstly nothing was said about near release sales for Awakenigs.

But something was said about DA2's preorders being carried by DA:O, except that many DA:O fans never pre-ordered DA2 because of how unlike DA:O it was.

So it's super shocking to me that out of 4,000,000 users we didn't even see 700,000 pre-order DA:A despite it suffering from none of the problems DA2 had pre-release.

What you said was that DA:O was so well received that it carried DA2. DA:A is relevant, because DA:O couldn't evne carry that. 

Modifié par In Exile, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[jbrand2002uk]

IanPolaris wrote...

dheer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
There can be no half measures. There can be no compromise. -Anders

I hate to say it, but I think this is probabaly right.  The customer base is too polarized.  If you go please one set, the other will feel slighted so if you try to please them both, you will alienate everyone.

-Polaris

Well, I don't know. If they keep the speed up combat from DA2, toned down the over the top animations and reduced the corpse explotions, all the while building on Origins foundations in other parts of the game, I think it could work pretty well as a starting point.

We'll see.  Based on what I read (and yes my own prejudices), I think it means that it will be DA2 writ large with a couple of things thrown in for the DAO crowd.

That would....not work....I think....

-Polaris

as much as i'd like to please everyone i have been one of the silent ones untill recently who has played both games fully and honestly prefered DA2 and thought it was a vast improvement over origins sadly my origins disc sits gathering dust after i became dissalusioned with the painfully slow pace of the combat in what is in essence a combat focused game.

after being a gamer for over 24 yrs, my first computer being a brand new Commodore Amiga 500 when i was 5yrs old and having bought and played every bioware game since the company started and enjoyed all of them thoroughly including origins till i got to 50% complete. I have now lost track at the number of slurs directed at myself from what can only be described as DAO fanatics ( i guess they're the dragon age equivalent of Born again christians at lest the one that live near me) saying words to the effect of I've sold my soul to the EA Devil purely because i have said that i enjoyed DA2.

the funny thing is I dont know whats more insulting, the slurs themselves or the fact that this ever increasing rude and noisy majority call themselves the "Bioware Faithful" considering i have bought and played every bioware game and never complained or stopped buying their games.<_<

[Oopsieoops]

In Exile wrote...

Oopsieoops wrote...
No, neither did I attempt to.

Oh, then let me quote you:

"A lot of people refused to preorder or even actually canceled their preorders when they discovered DA2 had nothing to do with DAO (I actually did cancel my preorder right after playing the demo, and bought a 2nd hand copy a few weeks afterwards)."

So that wasn't you trying to predict the reason for the pre-orders, or extrapolate your own behaviour? You could have fooled me. Especially when we look at how you said "A lot of people" and then gave the reasons those people would have.

No, that was me describing what I personally saw and experienced. Like I said two times already. If you got fooled then that just says very poorly about you reading comprehension skills.

Judging from the particularly steep drop from the the pre orders to the second week, you can make a pretty reasonble guess as to what transpired unless you're the type of blind that refuses to see.

An equally reasonable guess is that DA:O satisfied only 1 in 4 gamers, the majority of who pre-ordered, with the rest of the sales dropping after poor word-of-mouth by a portion of the fanbase who loved DA:O and were irate at the changes.

No, that's not reasonable because sales of DAO continued strong, and in fact increased several times along after release.

Or, alternatively, that DA:O dissapointed so much that the majority of gamers outside of the core fanbase just wouldn't purchase the game at all, no matter what. So aside from the pre-order crowd, there was no user base left to buy the game.

If that were so then DA2's sales would have at least mimicked DAO's progression, albeit with different numbers.

I'm not making up reactions, I'm describing them from my observation and personal experience. They're anecdotal and as such you should take them for what they are. Still without hard evidence for neither interpretation each is as valid as the other.

It's funny you say that each intepretation is as valid as the other.... right after saying that I have to be blind not to see that your interpretation is right.

Again, re-read the passage: without hard evidence. There's no evidence for before people's pre-orders, but there's evidence after. IOW, one can make inferences about what happened after release, but not before.

Hey cute strawman you got there.

I think you need to re-read what a strawman is. Mockery is not a strawman.

*FACEPALM* You strawmanned when you tried to pass my argument if it claimed something it did not. That's the definition of strawman.

So it's super shocking to me that out of 4,000,000 users we didn't even see 700,000 pre-order DA:A despite it suffering from none of the problems DA2 had pre-release.

Like I said, expansions sell less than full games by default, and DAA was known to be overpriced before release.

[Vicious]

what is it with the sexism? What the hell makes you think Anora is "frigid"? Because she doesn't bat her eye lashes and flirt with your manly Warden?

Because if you insult the characters it helps prove your point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Persephone wrote...

Power hungry? A queen, a competent ruler who wants to keep her position and will not let herself be deposed by an untrained, illegitimate and unfit to rule boy is "power hungry". I see....were you expecting her to go "Oh, mighty Warden, depose me. And if you want to kill my father while you are at it, suuuuure!"??? WTF?

Given that her ego is over 9000 and she - like her fqather - consider herself gods gift to Ferelden?* Given that's she's a schemer that thinks only of herslef and her position?
Thanks but no thanks

Loghain is a lot of things but crazy he is not. And RTO and DAII actually confirm his so called "paranoia". Never mind the people of Ferelden revering him as a hero.

Loghain is crazy. Period.

[FaWa]

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do. And as we find out, our "unfit king" really isn't so unfit. 


Seriously, we need to be able to do things like that in DA3. 

Modifié par FaWa, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Bleachrude]

Er, I hate to keep harping on this but I don't think you can use the "Cailan was going to leave Anora" argument since IN-GAME we know for a fact he told Eamon to take a hike when Eamon suggested he put Anora aside.

He did this for at least a year and the game kind makes clear Cailan and Eamon had a falling out over this.

This may sound strange but I think the game actually wants us to think that Anora and Cailan actually loved one another...Maybe it is not the fairy tale kingly/queenly love but they seemed at the least fond of each other.

Using the Cailan was going to marry Celene argument doesn't actually have any basis since the developers explicitly mention that this was a "potential" storyline that they dropped and unlike the "alistair was an older bastard" storyline , this was one that was dropped early enough in development that you don't see any bleed through in the final product.

Contrast that with post-Landsmeet talk with Loghain about alistair (Again, why would Loghain think Rowan would be seen nothing more as a concubine if the king had a son 3 years after her death? I could see it if say Alistair had been before her death, hell, even a year maybe but 3?)

[Persephone]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Given that her ego is over 9000 and she - like her fqather - consider herself gods gift to Ferelden?* Given that's she's a schemer that thinks only of herslef and her position?
Thanks but no thanks

Loghain is crazy. Period.

Yeah, no. She is confident, yes, as a ruler must be. She has done a damn good job over the years (Even Eamon agrees) and yes, rulers, esp. good ones who deal in politics must be schemers and safeguard their positions in order to survive? Yes, please.

Period? Really? Even though he was right all along? Ooooooooooooooook.

[Persephone]

FaWa wrote...

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do.

I never got much satisfaction out of it, esp. if it involved killing her father in front of her. Either outcome is tragic IMHO because no matter what you do, one of two people will leave that Landsmeet Chamber scarred, traumatized and utterly devastated. Nothing wonderful there.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain is crazy. Period.

Yes because the opinion of the allmighty Lotion is FACT!

All hail our new god!

[FaWa]

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do.

I never got much satisfaction out of it, esp. if it involved killing her father in front of her. Either outcome is tragic IMHO because no matter what you do, one of two people will leave that Landsmeet Chamber scarred, traumatized and utterly devastated. Nothing wonderful there.

All of those things are wonderful. Loghain deserves it and Anora is extremely power-hungry

[Tiglatpilesar]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 
Nobles like Howe, Bryland ( who both almost lost their lives at white River ) Sighard ( who had his son kidnapped )  would never agree to it given their past with the Orlesians. That leaves Eamon, Wullf, Alfstanna, Ceorlic ( who supports Loghain regardless of what you do, but eh is a coward so who knows ) and Urien ( who dies at Ostagar during the game ) who we don't really know who they would side with ( Eamon I bet will side with Orlais ).

So there, even in the situation where Ceorlic, Wullf, Alfstanna and Urien all side with Orlais ( which I personally doubt but you don't really get to know how much they care about Fereldan's indepence )  you still have 3 powerful nobles besides Loghain fighting against Orlais if Cailan were to abandon Anora to marry Celene. 

So tell me how exactly do you not see this as a disaster to Fereldan? Do you trully believe this can be a marriage of equals when Fereldan would be unstable, where Orlais has a strong powerful standing army whereas Fereldan has to call on individual nobles to raise one, where Orlais is dominant culturally and econimicaly?

Maybe, but i'm suprised that people prefer to debate "what ifs" to actually what have happend. Players witness from start to finish that Loghain rule is disaster to Ferelden no matter his reasons or motives. Personally i love how DAO question that "being right or even skilled" does not make good ruler.

 

[Persephone]

FaWa wrote...

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do.

I never got much satisfaction out of it, esp. if it involved killing her father in front of her. Either outcome is tragic IMHO because no matter what you do, one of two people will leave that Landsmeet Chamber scarred, traumatized and utterly devastated. Nothing wonderful there.

All of those things are wonderful. Loghain deserves it and Anora is extremely power-hungry

How very....callous. And people wonder why I am losing faith in humanity,......

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do.

I never got much satisfaction out of it, esp. if it involved killing her father in front of her. Either outcome is tragic IMHO because no matter what you do, one of two people will leave that Landsmeet Chamber scarred, traumatized and utterly devastated. Nothing wonderful there.

All of those things are wonderful. Loghain deserves it and Anora is extremely power-hungry

How very....callous. And people wonder why I am losing faith in humanity,......

It's a game Perse, it allows us to vent out ugliness in a game (an ugliness we all have and always have had as a species) rather than it being something we would do in real life to real flesh and blood people.

[In Exile]

Oopsieoops wrote...
No, that was me describing what I personally saw and experienced. Like I said two times already. If you got fooled then that just says very poorly about you reading comprehension skills.

No matter how desperately you try to backpedal, it doesn't change that you still use that as a justification for DA2's poor sale performance. And poorly, at that.

No, that's not reasonable because sales of DAO continued strong, and in fact increased several times along after release.

It's absolutely reasonable. Because word of mouth can lead to sales without the person buying the game enjoying it. Here's a great example:

10 people buy DA:O based on ME. 8 dislike it, 2 like it. 2 people recommend it to 4 friends. 3 like it, 1 dislikes it. 3 people recommend it to 9 friends. 6 dislike it, 3 like it. 

In total, 27 people bought DA:O. 8 people liked DA:O. 

This silly assumptions that sales translate into liking directly is nonsence, and the fact you defend it undercuts any other argument you want to make.

If that were so then DA2's sales would have at least mimicked DAO's progression, albeit with different numbers.

That doesn't make sense. The people who liked DA2 could have frontloaded their purchases, and exhausted their friends who would try a DA game with DA:O. Again, lots of explainations account for the evidence. 

Of course, you could totally be right. The point is, we don't know. The issue that I'm trying to prove anything, other than the fact that you can't prove anything. 

Again, re-read the passage: without hard evidence. There's no evidence for before people's pre-orders, but there's evidence after. IOW, one can make inferences about what happened after release, but not before.

There's absolutely no evidence now, other than sales #s, which tell us exactly jack all beyond the # of units sold. 

*FACEPALM* You strawmanned when you tried to pass my argument if it claimed something it did not. That's the definition of strawman.

I didn't try to pass off your argument. I was making it very clear I was making fun of you. Making fun of you isn't a counter-argument. It's just making fun of you.

Like I said, expansions sell less than full games by default, and DAA was known to be overpriced before release. 

And that totaly explains why DA:A sold 1/10th of DA:O, right? Because of how overpriced it was? Man, arguing against people with agenda's is fun. 

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Persephone wrote...

FaWa wrote...

As a female PC, betraying Anora is probably the most catty, yet wonderful thing you can do.

I never got much satisfaction out of it, esp. if it involved killing her father in front of her. Either outcome is tragic IMHO because no matter what you do, one of two people will leave that Landsmeet Chamber scarred, traumatized and utterly devastated. Nothing wonderful there.

All of those things are wonderful. Loghain deserves it and Anora is extremely power-hungry

How very....callous. And people wonder why I am losing faith in humanity,......

It's a game Perse, it allows us to vent out ugliness in a game (an ugliness we all have and always have had as a species) rather than it being something we would do in real life to real flesh and blood people.

I'm sorry but no. I will never, under any circumstances, support that kind of thinking. By that logic, they might as well develop games permitting the PC to do things like rape or torture........wait.......such "games" exist. So much for humanity.

And before someone says that killing a man while his daughter his ptesent and in utter turmoil is less reprehensible because of justice or whatever.........no, to me it is not. If it is to you, more power to you. I suppose it's a compliment to the writers to get me this invested in these characters. *Shrugs*

[Oopsieoops]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Oopsieoops wrote...
No, that was me describing what I personally saw and experienced. Like I said two times already. If you got fooled then that just says very poorly about you reading comprehension skills. [/quote]

No matter how desperately you try to backpedal, it doesn't change that you still use that as a justification for DA2's poor sale performance. And poorly, at that.[/quote]
Yeah, I seriously suggest you take some reading comprehension classes, then re-read my posts. While you're at that check out 'anedoctal evidence' in a dictionary.

[quote]
[quote]No, that's not reasonable because sales of DAO continued strong, and in fact increased several times along after release.[/quote]It's absolutely reasonable. Because word of mouth can lead to sales without the person buying the game enjoying it. Here's a great example:

10 people buy DA:O based on ME. 8 dislike it, 2 like it. 2 people recommend it to 4 friends. 3 like it, 1 dislikes it. 3 people recommend it to 9 friends. 6 dislike it, 3 like it. 

In total, 27 people bought DA:O. 8 people liked DA:O. 

This silly assumptions that sales translate into liking directly is nonsence, and the fact you defend it undercuts any other argument you want to make.

[quote]If that were so then DA2's sales would have at least mimicked DAO's progression, albeit with different numbers.[/quote]That doesn't make sense. The people who liked DA2 could have frontloaded their purchases, and exhausted their friends who would try a DA game with DA:O. Again, lots of explainations account for the evidence. 

Of course, you could totally be right. The point is, we don't know. The issue that I'm trying to prove anything, other than the fact that you can't prove anything. [/quote]

Sorry to be harsh but both of those arguments are just stupid. It's also yet another strawman because you're making it as if sales were the only evidence we have, and it's definitely not so. There's eg user review scores and even common opinion. Even if none of them individually are sufficient together they paint a pretty clear picture. Blocking the sun out with a sieve is pointless.

[quote]
[quote]Again, re-read the passage: without hard evidence. There's no evidence for before people's pre-orders, but there's evidence after. IOW, one can make inferences about what happened after release, but not before.[/quote]
There's absolutely no evidence now, other than sales #s, which tell us exactly jack all beyond the # of units sold. 
[/quote]
Above...

[quote]
[quote]*FACEPALM* You strawmanned when you tried to pass my argument if it claimed something it did not. That's the definition of strawman. [/quote]
I didn't try to pass off your argument. I was making it very clear I was making fun of you. Making fun of you isn't a counter-argument. It's just making fun of you.[/quote]

Yeah dude drop it off, we've dismissed that claim already lol. Stop trying to save face by passing off your genuine clueless thinking as if it were deliberate trolling, you're not fooling anybody. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's a sign of strenght to assume them. Sticking you nose up and claiming it was purposeful OTOH is just pathetic.

[quote]
[quote]Like I said, expansions sell less than full games by default, and DAA was known to be overpriced before release. [/quote]And that totaly explains why DA:A sold 1/10th of DA:O, right? Because of how overpriced it was? Man, arguing against people with agenda's is fun. [/quote]
It's amazing how you actually missed half of the sentence you JUST quoted. Try reading it again dude!

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:08 .