56 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

Raven4030 wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not refuting that Cerberus had a connection to ExoGeni or Binary Helix. It's pretty clear that even if they weren't true fronts, at the very least they had dealings with Cerberus agents or there were Cerberus agents with high level positions in both groups.

I'm just refuting that a xenophobic human-supremicist group would ally itself with a human hating, turian, renegade spectre without "assuming direct control" levels of indoctrination (which would destroy the hosts in a matter of days instead of months or years). Especially since in the comics TIM is indirectly responsible for the death of Saren's brother.

I'm also refuting that the Banes case was at all related to Saren and the reapers because if you take the time to look for the confrontation on youtube, the Banes thing was simple blackmail for medical supplies, not for silence.

I think the writers intended more implications to the Banes case and my have ended up cutting some material because of deadlines and other considerations. The end product when they released the game is obviously buggy and incomplete in the context of Banes.  I have a sneaking suspicion that Banes couldn't be dismissed so easily had they completed the story elements. Anderson's reaction to the mentioning of his name says it all. Also, I think from what we learn of TIMs methodologies in ME2, he would be willing to use a human hating Turian to further his ends. To TIM, only the ends have relevance; the means don't have a smidgeon of significance. 

Banes is pretty clearly a cut subplot that was never finished, and had no real definition or clarity. Ever since then, he's become the favorite 'Banes explains my X theory about Cerberus.'

[Lapis Lazuli]

Actually, a plethora of facts but a dearth of proof is one of the trademarks of loopy conspiracy theories. It's the mindset that numbers of separations, rather than degrees of association, show a connection: your bit on Saren must be connected to Cerberus because they both had/were interested in Rachni is a case in point.
--Dean_the_young

A very good point in the context of real life. But in the context of what fiction and movie writers intend in their story, don't you think the conspiracy theorist mindset is a whole lot more valid? Fiction writers (and especially film writers) don't operated like logicians, they tend to be closer to the grass roots.

Modifié par Lapis Lazuli, 29 août 2011 - 08:17 .

[KevShep]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, we can certainly rule out KevShep's 'theory'. That's a few loops loopier than a sonic game.

Even if its wrong....its still a good assuption based off of what we know....however Iam being told that its not even a good assumption because there is no facts to support it. I did not know that facts made a theory loopy.      
 

Actually, a plethora of facts but a dearth of proof is one of the trademarks of loopy conspiracy theories. It's the mindset that numbers of separations, rather than degrees of association, show a connection: your bit on Saren must be connected to Cerberus because they both had/were interested in Rachni is a case in point.

   Iam the one beating my head against a wall apparently.

Well, this explains much about your theory.

Your completely missing the point.  There is alot in the story that links saren to cerberus. If you have noticed that cerberus is everywhere in ME1. There in the shadows because there a major player in ME2, so in ME1 they are hidden from the player(but not complelety).

BTW my theory is not a conspiracy theory. There is no conspiracy here. You must realise that at some point that enough coincidences may not be coincidences at all. In a game however....................................If there is even a little coincidence there then that means that it is not a coinicidence 9/10.  There is a lot around cerberus!

Modifié par KevShep, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[BiO]

Cerberus is not working for the Reapers prior to the events of ME2. TIM is a parcial avatar, of sorts (Evolution comic).

He knows a lot about their strenghts and weakneses. However, since he is becomming a full avatar, he tries to find a way to stop the process of huskificaton. That is why he wanted the base intact, and that is why he did what he did to Paul Grayson and that is why Cerberus is studying the Thorian and the reaper husks - to stop TIM's huskification.

I believe he lost his identiy somewhere between Retribution and the beginning of ME3.

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 05 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Dryball]

What's so stigmatic about offering conspiracy theories? They happen in real life ALL the time. Just because someone decided to say they all were about one semi-cooky subject or another doesn't negate them. Hell if two plus guys get together and decide they are gonna hack a game, it's a conspiracy. If they decide to rob a bank, it's a conspiracy. If they decide to end hunger worldwide, it's a conspiracy. A conspiracy is simply two or more individuals secretly plotting and planning to do something together while keeping others in the dark. Negative connotations assigned to the word are the act's of various political parties across the globe to hamper what usually is "whistle-blower" information. LOL, a conpiracy if not directly then indirectly in itself.

Stop bombing the guy over it, kinda ridiculous if ya ask me. He does point out valid theories of connection that are otherwise unknown within the story based on what is known. A story, I might add, that is full to the brim of conspiracies and counter-conspiracies as part of it's driving plot.

Modifié par Dryball, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[Pygmalin]

 I think you are on to something here. I didn't read others thoughts on this. BUT in ME1 Virgil states that Seren was only a visable pawn and there were others. I believe that the Illusive Man has been indoctranted, and clearly he has some sort of implants, to what degree is the question. How long has he truely been around? And is Miranda a failed Cerberus project involving Reaper implants. Sleeper if you will. It was stated that they were around and hidden. Biotics and Implants would have to be Reaper Tech, because it states that the tech. came from them because they left it for them to find like the Relays.  Kinda makes me wonder just how much of the tech is designed for indoctranation.  I am not sure why the Illusive Man brought Shepard back,  that part is still unclear, I think he could have done it himself, but I think Shepard has something the Reapers want. BUT ok, I ramble get carried away in story. But I am seriously curious how they bring it all together.  Just 6 more months. Hey comes out just in time for my Birthday... Ha. 

[Tilted_Logic]

KevShep wrote...
Help me understand something then if you dont mind...... I have been giving facts(I will give an example) that have been ignored completely. I know that my theory is up in the air but many of my points that I point to is not being seen/noticed. 

Example-----
1. fact---------Saren and cerberus are in some way involved in the banse case.
2. fact---------Saren has major shares in Binary Helix.
3. fact---------Binary Helix has Rachni Queen.
4. fact---------Cerberus has Rachni as well.
5. fact---------Cerberus has many fronts to fund itself.
6. fact---------Saren gets his Genophage cure from Binary Helix(elevator news report).
7. fact---------Exogeni has Thorian.
8. fact---------Cerberus has Thorian creepers.
9. fact---------Saren works for the reapers.
10.fact--------Cerberus is working for the reapers in ME3( thought we are not sure how, Casey Hudson says we have to find out why.)

1. I can't expand on this point because I never looked into Bane's case, however Fist was originally a pawn of the Shadow Broker, not Saren; so is it at all possible Bane was unaware he was sending Tali into Saren's hands?

2. It's likely Saren did not know Binary Helix was a front for Cerberus and was investing due to his interest in their work.

3. Regardless of how Saren knew Binary Helix had Rachni Cerberus did not simply hand them over to him. Cerberus was doing what they do best - ethically questionable experiments on the species at hand - Saren wanted the Rachi for his own purposes and sent an army of geth/asari to retrieve one.  

4. Binary Helix and Cerberus are one in the same or co-operating, I don't refute that, it's a good point.

5. See 4.

6. I don't recall a news report stating where Saren got his 'cure' from, and even the Mass Effect wiki only mentions the company as one of the possible ways that Saren found a cure, rather than listing it as a fact. There was mention of Krogan investing in Binary Helix in the hopes they could find a cure, perhaps you were referring to that? 

7. Quoted from ExoGeni wiki page: "The geth attack killed many of ExoGeni's employees and cut communications to Feros for a while. Once ExoGeni discovered what had happened, the company decided the situation was out of control and told their only surviving representative, Ethan Jeong, that they were planning to cut their losses and purge the colony so word didn't get out." If ExoGeni was working with the Reapers, there would have been no need for Saren to send an army of geth to reach the Thorian. That quote clearly shows that ExoGeni wanted nothing to do with the Geth or Saren to the extent where they would abandon the Thorian to be rid of him.

8. Again, another connection between Cerberus and a popular corporation, even if ExoGeni is not a sect of Cerberus their ethics are already questionable and it is likely they had no problem releasing Thorian samples to Cerberus if the price was right.

9. Clear point.

10. Up until Mass Effect 3 everything we have learned about Cerberus stands in stark contrast to what you have suggested. They are a sick organisation that dabbles in extremely controversal things, and while they happen to be experimenting on the same facets as those Saren is interested in, it simply means both sides saw potential or a 'use' for the creature/technology in question.

KevShep wrote...
Its completely and utterly obvious that Saren(weather directly or indirectly) is involved with cerberus, or that cerberus is directly or indirectly involved with the reapers!
 

It's like saying Saren is working with the Protheans because he's using their technology. While I completely understand where you're coming from - and I in no way meant this post to be hostile - I don't believe Cerberus is working for/with the Reapers in either the first or second game. 

[BentOrgy]

Dryball wrote...

What's so stigmatic about offering conspiracy theories? They happen in real life ALL the time. Just because someone decided to say they all were about one semi-cooky subject or another doesn't negate them. Hell if two plus guys get together and decide they are gonna hack a game, it's a conspiracy. If they decide to rob a bank, it's a conspiracy. If they decide to end hunger worldwide, it's a conspiracy. A conspiracy is simply two or more individuals secretly plotting and planning to do something together while keeping others in the dark. Negative connotations assigned to the word are the act's of various political parties across the globe to hamper what usually is "whistle-blower" information. LOL, a conpiracy if not directly then indirectly in itself.

Stop bombing the guy over it, kinda ridiculous if ya ask me. He does point out valid theories of connection that are otherwise unknown within the story based on what is known. A story, I might add, that is full to the brim of conspiracies and counter-conspiracies as part of it's driving plot.

Evidently you've just arrived on the subject so I'll set the record straight;

Theories, conspiracy related or otherwise, are not what is being attacked here, but rather the fact that many of them can be easily explained away, or at the very least turned to validate another theory, which weaken's the original as possible "Fact."

No one is "Bombing" anyone, its just a case of one man "Bombing" thread after thread with material that, when actually observed and rationalized, really doesn't add up. His Collector, Reaper, Prothean, and Omega theories all have giant holes or inconsistencies, and have been adequately dealt with.

But, as I've said, this particular theory makes logical sense, and so I support it. Wizard.

[d1sciple]

i'm not sure it's much of a theory anymore, taking what we actually know from the 2 games(not guessing but codex etc.), the wiki and ME3 then Cerberus do have a connection with the Reapers. what that connection is, how far it goes and what the reasons are are the only things we can't say for certain. so short answer is there is factually some sort of connection, long answer is that after taking every piece of the ME universe into account things start looking really dodgy, no matter how you take it none of the info looks good.

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

No one is "Bombing" anyone, its just a case of one man "Bombing" thread after thread with material that, when actually observed and rationalized, really doesn't add up. His Collector, Reaper, Prothean, and Omega theories all have giant holes or inconsistencies, and have been adequately dealt with.

But, as I've said, this particular theory makes logical sense, and so I support it. Wizard.

Iam not being rude here but I must point something out.  You said that my theory on the collectors has big holes and inconsistencies. How would you know?  The status quo of the story has holes and inconsistencies. My theory reguarding the collectors has many good points that have not been proven wrong yet.

I like sharing my thoughts on one of my favorite games. Iam not bombing any one. Iam the one being bombed by people who are not even giving it a little or no thought at all about what Iam saying. 

I would also like to know what you mean that its "been adequately delt with"? It has not. You have made no point that proves that Iam wrong and then you tell me that Iam not making sense!  You can argue my point thats fine but .......................do NOT tell me that Iam wrong when your own thoughts/answers against my theory are just as questionable as my own theory. Like I said.......if your going to argue then argue but dont tell me that Iam flat out wrong when the reason for the theory in the first place tries to answer an unknown in the game that is backed by facts.

Modifié par KevShep, 06 septembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[KevShep]

Tilted_Logic wrote...

1. I can't expand on this point because I never looked into Bane's case, however Fist was originally a pawn of the Shadow Broker, not Saren; so is it at all possible Bane was unaware he was sending Tali into Saren's hands?

2. It's likely Saren did not know Binary Helix was a front for Cerberus and was investing due to his interest in their work.

6. I don't recall a news report stating where Saren got his 'cure' from, and even the Mass Effect wiki only mentions the company as one of the possible ways that Saren found a cure, rather than listing it as a fact. There was mention of Krogan investing in Binary Helix in the hopes they could find a cure, perhaps you were referring to that? 

7. Quoted from ExoGeni wiki page: "The geth attack killed many of ExoGeni's employees and cut communications to Feros for a while. Once ExoGeni discovered what had happened, the company decided the situation was out of control and told their only surviving representative, Ethan Jeong, that they were planning to cut their losses and purge the colony so word didn't get out." If ExoGeni was working with the Reapers, there would have been no need for Saren to send an army of geth to reach the Thorian. That quote clearly shows that ExoGeni wanted nothing to do with the Geth or Saren to the extent where they would abandon the Thorian to be rid of him.

KevShep wrote...
Its completely and utterly obvious that Saren(weather directly or indirectly) is involved with cerberus, or that cerberus is directly or indirectly involved with the reapers!
 

It's like saying Saren is working with the Protheans because he's using their technology. While I completely understand where you're coming from - and I in no way meant this post to be hostile - I don't believe Cerberus is working for/with the Reapers in either the first or second game. 

1. Fist ...was... a pawn of the shadow broker. He betrayed the SB and now works for Saren. Saren payed him off.

2. It makes sense that Saren would not even know that cerberus was in on it with the reapers at all. Why would the reapers tell him? More likely the reapers told Saren to invest in Binary Helix without telling him its a front for Cerberus. Why you ask? Its because cerberus has a queen rachni that the reapers just happen to want.

6. A Krogan group settled out of court when the Krogan were sueing Binary Helix for trying to cure the Genophage and they produced no results. However they did.........it was Saren cure!

7. ExoGeni has ties to cerberus (we know this) and ExoGeni has a Thorian.........just by chance (not likely though) that the reapers just happen to be after this same Thorian! cerberus-reapers.
Also in ME1 that doctor in Noveria tells you that they are working on a toxin that can kill multiple races. In ME2 there is a similar toxin that kills all but humans. If this is the same thing than that means that it was cerberus behind it.

Like I said...Saren would not have known that cerberus is working for the reapers at all. He is just doing what the reapers tell him to do.
  

Modifié par KevShep, 06 septembre 2011 - 12:45 .

[Tilted_Logic]

KevShep wrote...

1. Fist ...was... a pawn of the shadow broker. He betrayed the SB and now works for Saren. Saren payed him off.

2. It makes sense that Saren would not even know that cerberus was in on it with the reapers at all. Why would the reapers tell him? More likely the reapers told Saren to invest in Binary Helix without telling him its a front for Cerberus. Why you ask? Its because cerberus has a queen rachni that the reapers just happen to want.

6. A Krogan group settled out of court when the Krogan were sueing Binary Helix for trying to cure the Genophage and they produced no results. However they did.........it was Saren cure!

7. ExoGeni has ties to cerberus (we know this) and ExoGeni has a Thorian.........just by chance (not likely though) that the reapers just happen to be after this same Thorian! cerberus-reapers.
Also in ME1 that doctor in Noveria tells you that they are working on a toxin that can kill multiple races. In ME2 there is a similar toxin that kills all but humans. If this is the same thing than that means that it was cerberus behind it.
 

1. I still don't know much about Banes, but from what I've read on the wiki Banes seems to be part of a follow-up quest from Dr. Michel, not part of the actual bit regarding Fist and Tali. Could you link me to some more info? I'm legitimately curious at this point about how Banes is involved.

2. Even if something like the Alliance had the Rachni queen Saren still would have gone after it; the fact Cerberus might have been in control of Binary Helix really doesn't seem to suggest an allegiance between them and the Reapers. Even the people who are allied to Saren at Peak 15 are listed as being people Saren planted in the company.

6. You're still not presenting facts. "sueing Binary Helix for trying to cure the Genophage and they produced no results". If Binary Helix had been behind Saren's 'cure' why wouldn't they share it with the Krogan who were paying them to achieve it? "However they did.........it was Saren cure!" Where are you getting that from? I can't find information that says specifically that Saren got the cure from Binary Helix.

7. There is only one Thorian that we know of in existance. How could the Reapers be after another one if it doesn't exist? You're claiming that because a company has something of value that someone else wants, that instantly makes them allies.
If Cerberus had chocolate and the Reapers had a sweet tooth, would stealing it from them make them allies? It makes no sense.

To your second point - that toxin is a bioweapon. Many, many warfaring species have dabbled with bioweaponry; the genophage is biological warfare (even if it is not labeled by the Salarians as such). It would be unlikely to assume other races have not done minor research into the subject, and while we don't have specific examples, the plague could just as much have come from the Raloi as it did the Collectors. I'd like to add though, this specific point is one that is neither true nor false as there aren't enough hard facts to back up either view point.

Modifié par Tilted_Logic, 06 septembre 2011 - 01:56 .

[KevShep]

Tilted_Logic wrote...

1. I still don't know much about Banes, but from what I've read on the wiki Banes seems to be part of a follow-up quest from Dr. Michel, not part of the actual bit regarding Fist and Tali. Could you link me to some more info? I'm legitimately curious at this point about how Banes is involved.

2. Even if something like the Alliance had the Rachni queen Saren still would have gone after it; the fact Cerberus might have been in control of Binary Helix really doesn't seem to suggest an allegiance between them and the Reapers. Even the people who are allied to Saren at Peak 15 are listed as being people Saren planted in the company.

6. You're still not presenting facts. "sueing Binary Helix for trying to cure the Genophage and they produced no results". If Binary Helix had been behind Saren's 'cure' why wouldn't they share it with the Krogan who were paying them to achieve it? "However they did.........it was Saren cure!" Where are you getting that from? I can't find information that says specifically that Saren got the cure from Binary Helix.

7. There is only one Thorian that we know of in existance. How could the Reapers be after another one if it doesn't exist? You're claiming that because a company has something of value that someone else wants, that instantly makes them allies.
If Cerberus had chocolate and the Reapers had a sweet tooth, would stealing it from them make them allies? It makes no sense.

To your second point - that toxin is a bioweapon. Many, many warfaring species have dabbled with bioweaponry; the genophage is biological warfare (even if it is not labeled by the Salarians as such). It would be unlikely to assume other races have not done minor research into the subject, and while we don't have specific examples, the plague could just as much have come from the Raloi as it did the Collectors. I'd like to add though, this specific point is one that is neither true nor false as there aren't enough hard facts to back up either view point.

 1.I can provide links but it should all be there on wiki.(I will provide them when I find them)

2. Binary Helix is a human controled and run organization. Binary Helix did not find the queen rachni( but someone did)......the game leaves that a mystery (it is known as "they found it" by a binary helix employee but does not say who they is). Cerberus mysteriously has rachni some how, just like they mysteriously had thorian creepers. The reapers seem to be after both which cerberus just happends to have on hand already. Sovereign had been planning this for years and cerberus was part of the plan to get everything ready for the search for the conduit! Notice that it does not take saren long to find it.

6. It was said on an elevator on the citadel after the completion of Virmire. The reapers would not give it to the Krogan because the reaper were using it to build there own army of Krogan.....They dont more opposition by giving the cure to there enemy. This is also mentioned in the wiki reguarding the Virmire mission,( I will give you al link when I find it) This is proof that Binary Helix was aidding Saren and if it is a front for cerberus then the rumors about cerberus working to the reapers is true after all.

7. I never said that there was more then one. I was saying that everything that the reapers want cerberus as there hands in it...............this is not coincidence. Notice this........Everything that the reapers want is not just "chocolate" its THE most rarest things in the entire galaxy (rachni Queen which the only one left/ Thorian which is also the only one left/ Binary Helix develops a cure for the genophage which no one else has) and cerberus just happends to be involved in all of it.  

As to your point of no facts to the virus on Omega well.......In real life that would be true but in a video game if its mentioned then there is a good chance that it will have an effect at some point. If cerberus is tied to Binary Helix then there is a VERY VERY good chance that its the same bio weapon....It was Binary Helix that tells you about the bio weapon in the first place.

Bottom line is that Cerberus was doing all of the reapers work because the reapers had a snag in there plans from the begining so..........You need some one to find the Rachni( they know the missing relay), you need somthing to translate the prothean beacon(for an organic like saren there pawn), you need some one to build and army of super soliders(cerberus is doing that with rachni/thorian) , you need to have someone do other things like make a virus in order to take over omega but leave the humans unharmed(this to could be cerberus). Cerberus is the hand of the reapers!

Modifié par KevShep, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[KevShep]

Tilted_Logic

1. Banes was not involved.....Cerberus was(this is on wiki as well). Cerberus was the connection between banes and the missing marines and possibly between banes and the doctor givin the already many connection between cerberus and saren/reapers.
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Banes

Read down at the bottom of the page where it says Mass Effect and then right below that is the results of Mass Effect 2.
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Genophage

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

No one is "Bombing" anyone, its just a case of one man "Bombing" thread after thread with material that, when actually observed and rationalized, really doesn't add up. His Collector, Reaper, Prothean, and Omega theories all have giant holes or inconsistencies, and have been adequately dealt with.

But, as I've said, this particular theory makes logical sense, and so I support it. Wizard.

Iam not being rude here but I must point something out.  You said that my theory on the collectors has big holes and inconsistencies. How would you know?  The status quo of the story has holes and inconsistencies. My theory reguarding the collectors has many good points that have not been proven wrong yet.

I like sharing my thoughts on one of my favorite games. Iam not bombing any one. Iam the one being bombed by people who are not even giving it a little or no thought at all about what Iam saying. 

I would also like to know what you mean that its "been adequately delt with"? It has not. You have made no point that proves that Iam wrong and then you tell me that Iam not making sense!  You can argue my point thats fine but .......................do NOT tell me that Iam wrong when your own thoughts/answers against my theory are just as questionable as my own theory. Like I said.......if your going to argue then argue but dont tell me that Iam flat out wrong when the reason for the theory in the first place tries to answer an unknown in the game that is backed by facts.

Dear God, I thought we were done with this.

We've done this tiresome dance...How many times now? I've had to reiterate why your theories are questionable with relative reason.... How many times now? Through how many threads? Please, go read them again if you must, because I sure as hell won't go through it again.

And for the record, I've never once declared that my theories were anymore fact than yours, but rather that they held more logical weight and consistency, and therefore were more probable than yours.

The butthurt this guy has, jeez.

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

Dear God, I thought we were done with this.

We've done this tiresome dance...How many times now? I've had to reiterate why your theories are questionable with relative reason.... How many times now? Through how many threads? Please, go read them again if you must, because I sure as hell won't go through it again.

And for the record, I've never once declared that my theories were anymore fact than yours, but rather that they held more logical weight and consistency, and therefore were more probable than yours.

The butthurt this guy has, jeez.

Your right this is tiresome thats why Iam butthurt about it. Its all speculation at this point, but its still fun to discuss them. I like to share my thoughts and see what people think (good or bad).

The point Iam trying to make is that you dont know what is more logical or consistent when the story itself is primed to take a left or right turn in ME3. Your theories were based off of the story itself and not what is actually seen in the game. Yes my theory was not in conjuction with the story so far but I was seeing things that put the story itself in question. THAT is where Iam coming from. I believe that the story is not to be taken at face value when there are so many unknowns still.

I intend to make a thread about it before the game comes out. However I was not completely explaning myself ether in the first place so I understand your argument. Your welcome to the thread when I make it, if not then I understand.

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Dear God, I thought we were done with this.

We've done this tiresome dance...How many times now? I've had to reiterate why your theories are questionable with relative reason.... How many times now? Through how many threads? Please, go read them again if you must, because I sure as hell won't go through it again.

And for the record, I've never once declared that my theories were anymore fact than yours, but rather that they held more logical weight and consistency, and therefore were more probable than yours.

The butthurt this guy has, jeez.

Your theories were based off of the story itself and not what is actually seen in the game.

Would you like to rephrase that? Because it makes little to no sense. If anything actually needed to be analyzed, it would be the story. Considering that's where information comes from. Where the hell else would we get it? The textures? The Bump mapping? The Rigging and lighting?

Last I checked, aside from the novels and comics, (Which I've read.) all information related to the story had to gleaned from what was "seen in the game."

And I again stand by the notion that you're making Mass Effect's story waaay more complex than it probably is. ME 1's story was quite simple in the end; Evil God-Machines wipe out all life every 50,000 years or so, and we gotta stop them. ME2's story was even more simple; collect a group of misfits to battle said God-Machines.

Did I leave some of the flavor? Sure. (Protheans are were repurposed to be Collectors, Protheans created the Conduit, the Cipher yada yada.) But in the end, its always been HOW Bioware told the story, rather than the story itself, that made it so good.

So again, rephrase if you must, or, if that's what you actually meant to say, please be quiet.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 07 septembre 2011 - 12:24 .

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

Would you like to rephrase that? Because it makes little to no sense. If anything actually needed to be analyzed, it would be the story. Considering that's where information comes from. Where the hell else would we get it? The textures? The Bump mapping? The Rigging and lighting?

Last I checked, aside from the novels and comics, (Which I've read.) all information related to the story had to gleaned from what was "seen in the game."

And I again stand by the notion that you're making Mass Effect's story waaay more complex than it probably is. ME 1's story was quite simple in the end; Evil God-Machines wipe out all life every 50,000 years or so, and we gotta stop them. ME2's story was even more simple; collect a group of misfits to battle said God-Machines.

Did I leave some of the flavor? Sure. (Protheans are were repurposed to be Collectors, Protheans created the Conduit, the Cipher yada yada.) But in the end, its always been HOW Bioware told the story, rather than the story itself, that made it so good.

So again, rephrase if you must, or, if that's what you actually meant to say, please be quiet.

Yes the story in ME1 was really straight forward. However ME2 was anything but straight forward( too many shadows that cloud the story). 

The things that I noticed were things like the unnecessary need for a slave race that is NOT of the current cycle. This is pointed out by the fact that the reapers were having to........"improvise"....them because an organic race recloned time and time again presents a problem that they need to "fix" by replacing almost everything in them with tech..........My point is that this is inefficent for the reapers when they can just use the current cycle as havesters as Vigil mentions(refering to the ME1 that the reapers did use the current cycle for there biding, so why use the collectors?????).

This seems like nonsense but then there is the O4 relay that looks different then any other relay(for an obvious reason, other wise it would be the same make as the others). Then there is the collector ship/base/tech that appers to be not of reaper design(meaning that it has a different style/architect that in no way should look different from reaper design/tech/style). This does suggest that the collectors were an unforseen problem that the reapers decided to "repurpose" them instead and had to "improvies with tech" due to the change in there plans. This means that the protheans(not collectors) built the relay(O4 relay) and some of them DID survive the invasion only to be indoctrinated in the end. The collectors are born.

Since the reapers had a change in there plans (thanks to the protheans) they found the hidden hevan for the prothean survivors and "repurposed" them in order to help the reapers with another plan.  The surviving protheans were the perfect ones to use and to compensate with the cloning they add tech to keep there temporary slaves alive to do there bidding. You have to notice that the collectors are not a usuall thing for the reapers sense they would use the current race instead. 

Cerberus is tied in some way with the reapers and in ME2 cerberus is apparently trying to stop them....This may not be the case at all. Because ME2 is shrouded in unknowns about cerberus means only one thing from a games perpective.......It means that they are NOT who they say they are and they are not fighting for what you think. There REAL motives are an ME3 spoiler. Bioware says that "The reason cerberus is working for the reapers is a close guarded secret within Bioware" -Bioware[ info from GI mag about ME3].

If cerberus is working for the reapers then why are they trying to kill the collectors?????????????????????? Unless they are not and there true motives are kept from the player(Shepard). This explains there incredible sources and there unknowns.
 
That is already a lot (and yes I know that I jumped all over the place but you understand why). This is not all of the speculation that  I have on this, its just way to long for this post.  I will make a thread about this at some time later when I will go over everything in an much more organized way.

Modifié par KevShep, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[TravisJBlues]

You do make some sense with all this but you also dont at the same time im not sure what isnt connecting for me.
But i do know that Cerberus seems to be ducking in and out of it yes in ME1 they do make it look like they're working with the reapers.
But then in ME2 it seems like theyre just a radical pro human group so i guess there is a possibility that the Illusive Man may or may not have aggreed to help the reapers in order for humanity to (As he so well put) Dominate the universe and beyond.
He likes to talk about humanities best interests and do everything for them so its likley hes letting them try to come up with different plans and such to get Shepard in their hands or the Illusive Man himself is just agreeing to let them take humans.
This is just me tho i would like a correction incase i missed something or just messed something up

[Tilted_Logic]

KevShep wrote...

1. Banes was not involved.....Cerberus was(this is on wiki as well). Cerberus was the connection between banes and the missing marines and possibly between banes and the doctor givin the already many connection between cerberus and saren/reapers. 
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Banes

2. Binary Helix is a human controled and run organization. Binary Helix did not find the queen rachni( but someone did)......the game leaves that a mystery (it is known as "they found it" by a binary helix employee but does not say who they is). Cerberus mysteriously has rachni some how, just like they mysteriously had thorian creepers. The reapers seem to be after both which cerberus just happends to have on hand already. Sovereign had been planning this for years and cerberus was part of the plan to get everything ready for the search for the conduit! Notice that it does not take saren long to find it.

6. It was said on an elevator on the citadel after the completion of Virmire. The reapers would not give it to the Krogan because the reaper were using it to build there own army of Krogan.....They dont more opposition by giving the cure to there enemy. This is also mentioned in the wiki reguarding the Virmire mission,( I will give you al link when I find it) This is proof that Binary Helix was aidding Saren and if it is a front for cerberus then the rumors about cerberus working to the reapers is true after all.

7. I never said that there was more then one. I was saying that everything that the reapers want cerberus as there hands in it...............this is not coincidence. Notice this........Everything that the reapers want is not just "chocolate" its THE most rarest things in the entire galaxy (rachni Queen which the only one left/ Thorian which is also the only one left/ Binary Helix develops a cure for the genophage which no one else has) and cerberus just happends to be involved in all of it.  

As to your point of no facts to the virus on Omega well.......In real life that would be true but in a video game if its mentioned then there is a good chance that it will have an effect at some point. If cerberus is tied to Binary Helix then there is a VERY VERY good chance that its the same bio weapon....It was Binary Helix that tells you about the bio weapon in the first place.

Bottom line is that Cerberus was doing all of the reapers work because the reapers had a snag in there plans from the begining so..........You need some one to find the Rachni( they know the missing relay), you need somthing to translate the prothean beacon(for an organic like saren there pawn), you need some one to build and army of super soliders(cerberus is doing that with rachni/thorian) , you need to have someone do other things like make a virus in order to take over omega but leave the humans unharmed(this to could be cerberus). Cerberus is the hand of the reapers!

1. I know Cerberus is responsible for the missing marines, you do a quest in the first game that makes that clear. The point you were originally arguing though was that Cerberus - through Banes - led Tali to Saren. I still see no mention anywhere that he had any involvement in that portion of the game. Your scope is still quite wide; Banes blackmailing Dr. Michel about something else doesn't in any way shape or form mean he had anything to do with Fist.

2. I'm not doubting the fact Cerberus could have hands in Binary Helix/ExoGeni, the point I'm debating is how could Cerberus and the Reapers be working together if Saren had to forcibly make his way to the Thorian/Rachni? If he was allied with Cerberus why would he need to be violent? That's what you're not seeing: the fact Cerberus/Binary Helix/ExoGeni never willingly offered to help Saren, he always had to be violent to achieve his goals. Allied factions don't attack each other.

6. "Possibly with the assistance of Binary Helix or even Sovereign, Saren Arterius managed to develop a genophage cure". (quoted from the Wiki) The only reason ExoGeni was even mentioned was because they are the only group known to us at that point working on a cure. The virmire mission page has no mention of Binary Helix or Cerberus.

7. When I mentioned there only being one Thorian my point was that it didn't matter who was overseeing it, Saren wanted it regardless. I have no idea how Saren knew about the Thorian, or how Sovereign did, so if they were allied with ExoGeni then it would be easy for them to find out. But the fact is nothing from the Feros portion of the game suggests Saren was allied with ExoGeni. See point 2. again; if Saren was working with ExoGeni why would he need to attack Feros? While at this point I am ligitimately intrigued wondering how Saren knew about the Thorian, and I would find it incredibly entertaining to discover Cerberus/ExoGeni did in fact tell him, I still don't see a viable connection. 

As to the virus on Omega, it has been stated that it was the Collectors behind it. While in your mind that won't exclude Cerberus from aiding in the situation, consider the fact that Collector technology is significantly advanced in comparison to anything any species of the modern era has invented. The reasoning being the Collectors simply wouldn't need help from Cerberus as they could create a virus far superior to anything a pro-human group could come up with. 

KevShep wrote...
You have to notice that the collectors are not a usuall thing for the reapers sense they would use the current race instead. 

When it comes to completely erradicating life in the galaxy every 50,000 years, during the termination 'period' it was stated the Reapers made use of sleeper agents/indoctrinated members of the species that were being destroyed at the time. If that is what you're pointing out I see where you're coming from, but you're completely forgetting about the Keepers on the citadel.

From what we know the Keepers are a race that was repurposed for the sole reason of serving the Reapers long term. Long, long.... loooong term. The collectors then are not unique in that both they and the Keepers are species that have lived on long beyond their races extinction.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point the only thing you've said that holds valid weight to me seems to be the connection between the Reapers and the Thorian. The Reapers aren't 'all-seeing' nor are they 'all-knowing' (as made clear by the fact Protheans on Illos managed to survive in stasis), as such their knowledge about the Thorian confounds me. The Thorian supposedly predates the last cycle of extinction, meaning either the Reapers knew about it and for whatever reason chose not to erradicate it (perhaps during its' hibernation state the Reapers considered it no threat), or they only became aware of its' existence recently. The latter seems more likely to me, and while that would suggest a collaboration betwen Saren and ExoGeni, it still baffles me that the situation was hostile from the start.

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Would you like to rephrase that? Because it makes little to no sense. If anything actually needed to be analyzed, it would be the story. Considering that's where information comes from. Where the hell else would we get it? The textures? The Bump mapping? The Rigging and lighting?

Last I checked, aside from the novels and comics, (Which I've read.) all information related to the story had to gleaned from what was "seen in the game."

And I again stand by the notion that you're making Mass Effect's story waaay more complex than it probably is. ME 1's story was quite simple in the end; Evil God-Machines wipe out all life every 50,000 years or so, and we gotta stop them. ME2's story was even more simple; collect a group of misfits to battle said God-Machines.

Did I leave some of the flavor? Sure. (Protheans are were repurposed to be Collectors, Protheans created the Conduit, the Cipher yada yada.) But in the end, its always been HOW Bioware told the story, rather than the story itself, that made it so good.

So again, rephrase if you must, or, if that's what you actually meant to say, please be quiet.

Yes the story in ME1 was really straight forward. However ME2 was anything but straight forward( too many shadows that cloud the story). 

The things that I noticed were things like the unnecessary need for a slave race that is NOT of the current cycle. This is pointed out by the fact that the reapers were having to........"improvise"....them because an organic race recloned time and time again presents a problem that they need to "fix" by replacing almost everything in them with tech..........My point is that this is inefficent for the reapers when they can just use the current cycle as havesters as Vigil mentions(refering to the ME1 that the reapers did use the current cycle for there biding, so why use the collectors?????).

This seems like nonsense but then there is the O4 relay that looks different then any other relay(for an obvious reason, other wise it would be the same make as the others). Then there is the collector ship/base/tech that appers to be not of reaper design(meaning that it has a different style/architect that in no way should look different from reaper design/tech/style). This does suggest that the collectors were an unforseen problem that the reapers decided to "repurpose" them instead and had to "improvies with tech" due to the change in there plans. This means that the protheans(not collectors) built the relay(O4 relay) and some of them DID survive the invasion only to be indoctrinated in the end. The collectors are born.

Since the reapers had a change in there plans (thanks to the protheans) they found the hidden hevan for the prothean survivors and "repurposed" them in order to help the reapers with another plan.  The surviving protheans were the perfect ones to use and to compensate with the cloning they add tech to keep there temporary slaves alive to do there bidding. You have to notice that the collectors are not a usuall thing for the reapers sense they would use the current race instead. 

Cerberus is tied in some way with the reapers and in ME2 cerberus is apparently trying to stop them....This may not be the case at all. Because ME2 is shrouded in unknowns about cerberus means only one thing from a games perpective.......It means that they are NOT who they say they are and they are not fighting for what you think. There REAL motives are an ME3 spoiler. Bioware says that "The reason cerberus is working for the reapers is a close guarded secret within Bioware" -Bioware[ info from GI mag about ME3].

If cerberus is working for the reapers then why are they trying to kill the collectors?????????????????????? Unless they are not and there true motives are kept from the player(Shepard). This explains there incredible sources and there unknowns.
 
That is already a lot (and yes I know that I jumped all over the place but you understand why). This is not all of the speculation that  I have on this, its just way to long for this post.  I will make a thread about this at some time later when I will go over everything in an much more organized way.

Why use the Collectors? As I've said in previous threads, there could be any number of reasons, one of which being Bioware not thinking this all the way through. Plus, by your logic, the Reapers wouldn't have repurposed them if they were an anomaly, but would have destroyed them like they had all the others. Which further enhances the notion that the Reapers redesigned the Protheans on purpose. Why? No idea. Zulu once wondered if the Collectors are actually more than just one species, and that the Reapers have been using them all along, so there you go.

You're theorizing that the leftover Protheans somehow miraculously aquired the componants, manpower, and time to creat not just a relay, but a freaking space station in the Galactic Core, an area explicitly stated to be nothing but exploding suns and blackholes; this in itself is highly improbable. Why? Because you also go on to say that the Reapers discovered said survivors, and then indoctrinated them. This means that the Reapers were probabaly still rummaging around the Galaxy, looking for stragglers, which means the most definately would have stumbled upon a group of Protheans (The species they're trying to eradicate.) working on something that massive, and disposed of them. It just doesn't make sense.

And of course the Collector ship/base don't look like "Reaper design." Because its obviously Prothean handiwork; look at the metal and holographic interfaces used, they're almost identical to the tech on Therum and Ilos. But have we ever seen Reaper technology? ASIDE from the Reapers themselves, the dragon's teeth, and a handful of beacons? (Object Rho, the Arca Monolith etc.) No, we haven't, because the Reapers don't need anything else. They more than likely make use of the tech they find in the Galaxy when they arrive. The Protheans were the only spacefaring race of their time, so the only spaceships lying around were Prothean. Not that big a stretch.

"But why do they look so different now?" Simple, the Collector base and Ship have been around for almost/over 50,000 years. That's a hell of a long time, and a hell of a long time for things to break. Which means that the Collectors, with their inferior resources and intellect, had to make patch-jobs whenever and however they could. Its also highly likely that the ship and base were heavily redesigned to accomodate their purpose (A ship to transport an entire species to a base that was converted into a Reaper Factory.)

"But what about Omega 4?" One, the Protheans already created a Relay, the Conduit. It was smaller, sure, but it sure as hell looked like all the others didn't it? The fact that the Omega 4 Relay looks odd does NOT automatically mean that the Protheans desgined it, even more so after my explination on why they probably couldn't have. And two, my experience in gaming (College student studying game art and design.) tells me that Bioware more than likely designed the Omega 4 "'Cause it looked cool," and "It meshed with the dirty vibe we've got in this game." But for a story driven reason? Maybe the Reapers had the Collectors build the relay so that they could move their newly repurposed ship and base to the core for protection, but due to the same reason why the ship and base look so worse for wear, the relay turned out much the same way. Or maybe, because its linked solely to such an unstable location, the quantum effects linking them together caused a sort of erosion effect. Who knows?

As for why Cerberus is "apparently" working for the Reapers? There's a treasure trove of reasons I'm sure. For example; We know that the Illusive man (Jack Haper) was affacted by the Arca Monolith, a Reaper beacon that caused all who touched it to turn into husks, but not your average "Durrrrr" husks. These "Arca Husks" retained their intelligence. But that's a side point, the main one being that maybe, after thirty or so years, the Reapers have finally gotten through to Jack's mind. Meaning that, during the events of Mass Effect 2, Cerberus WAS trying to stop the reapers, but now that their head honcho's become a reaper agent, their mission has changed. Again, not that big of a stretch.

So there, once again, adequate reasons to throw your theory into doubt. Enjoy.

Oh, and please stop spamming your posts with ridiculous amounts of question marks, and please do a proper grammar sweep; its getting very frustrating trying to decipher your posts.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[d1sciple]

BentOrgy wrote...

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Would you like to rephrase that? Because it makes little to no sense. If anything actually needed to be analyzed, it would be the story. Considering that's where information comes from. Where the hell else would we get it? The textures? The Bump mapping? The Rigging and lighting?

Last I checked, aside from the novels and comics, (Which I've read.) all information related to the story had to gleaned from what was "seen in the game."

And I again stand by the notion that you're making Mass Effect's story waaay more complex than it probably is. ME 1's story was quite simple in the end; Evil God-Machines wipe out all life every 50,000 years or so, and we gotta stop them. ME2's story was even more simple; collect a group of misfits to battle said God-Machines.

Did I leave some of the flavor? Sure. (Protheans are were repurposed to be Collectors, Protheans created the Conduit, the Cipher yada yada.) But in the end, its always been HOW Bioware told the story, rather than the story itself, that made it so good.

So again, rephrase if you must, or, if that's what you actually meant to say, please be quiet.

Yes the story in ME1 was really straight forward. However ME2 was anything but straight forward( too many shadows that cloud the story). 

The things that I noticed were things like the unnecessary need for a slave race that is NOT of the current cycle. This is pointed out by the fact that the reapers were having to........"improvise"....them because an organic race recloned time and time again presents a problem that they need to "fix" by replacing almost everything in them with tech..........My point is that this is inefficent for the reapers when they can just use the current cycle as havesters as Vigil mentions(refering to the ME1 that the reapers did use the current cycle for there biding, so why use the collectors?????).

This seems like nonsense but then there is the O4 relay that looks different then any other relay(for an obvious reason, other wise it would be the same make as the others). Then there is the collector ship/base/tech that appers to be not of reaper design(meaning that it has a different style/architect that in no way should look different from reaper design/tech/style). This does suggest that the collectors were an unforseen problem that the reapers decided to "repurpose" them instead and had to "improvies with tech" due to the change in there plans. This means that the protheans(not collectors) built the relay(O4 relay) and some of them DID survive the invasion only to be indoctrinated in the end. The collectors are born.

Since the reapers had a change in there plans (thanks to the protheans) they found the hidden hevan for the prothean survivors and "repurposed" them in order to help the reapers with another plan.  The surviving protheans were the perfect ones to use and to compensate with the cloning they add tech to keep there temporary slaves alive to do there bidding. You have to notice that the collectors are not a usuall thing for the reapers sense they would use the current race instead. 

Cerberus is tied in some way with the reapers and in ME2 cerberus is apparently trying to stop them....This may not be the case at all. Because ME2 is shrouded in unknowns about cerberus means only one thing from a games perpective.......It means that they are NOT who they say they are and they are not fighting for what you think. There REAL motives are an ME3 spoiler. Bioware says that "The reason cerberus is working for the reapers is a close guarded secret within Bioware" -Bioware[ info from GI mag about ME3].

If cerberus is working for the reapers then why are they trying to kill the collectors?????????????????????? Unless they are not and there true motives are kept from the player(Shepard). This explains there incredible sources and there unknowns.
 
That is already a lot (and yes I know that I jumped all over the place but you understand why). This is not all of the speculation that  I have on this, its just way to long for this post.  I will make a thread about this at some time later when I will go over everything in an much more organized way.

Why use the Collectors? As I've said in previous threads, there could be any number of reasons, one of which being Bioware not thinking this all the way through. Plus, by your logic, the Reapers wouldn't have repurposed them if they were an anomaly, but would have destroyed them like they had all the others. Which further enhances the notion that the Reapers redesigned the Protheans on purpose. Why? No idea. Zulu once wondered if the Collectors are actually more than just one species, and that the Reapers have been using them all along, so there you go.

You're theorizing that the leftover Protheans somehow miraculously aquired the componants, manpower, and time to creat not just a relay, but a freaking space station in the Galactic Core, an area explicitly stated to be nothing but exploding suns and blackholes; this in itself is highly improbable. Why? Because you also go on to say that the Reapers discovered said survivors, and then indoctrinated them. This means that the Reapers were probabaly still rummaging around the Galaxy, looking for stragglers, which means the most definately would have stumbled upon a group of Protheans (The species they're trying to eradicate.) working on something that massive, and disposed of them. It just doesn't make sense.

And of course the Collector ship/base don't look like "Reaper design." Because its obviously Prothean handiwork; look at the metal and holographic interfaces used, they're almost identical to the tech on Therum and Ilos. But have we ever seen Reaper technology? ASIDE from the Reapers themselves, the dragon's teeth, and a handful of beacons? (Object Rho, the Arca Monolith etc.) No, we haven't, because the Reapers don't need anything else. They more than likely make use of the tech they find in the Galaxy when they arrive. The Protheans were the only spacefaring race of their time, so the only spaceships lying around were Prothean. Not that big a stretch.

"But why do they look so different now?" Simple, the Collector base and Ship have been around for almost/over 50,000 years. That's a hell of a long time, and a hell of a long time for things to break. Which means that the Collectors, with their inferior resources and intellect, had to make patch-jobs whenever and however they could. Its also highly likely that the ship and base were heavily redesigned to accomodate their purpose (A ship to transport an entire species to a base that was converted into a Reaper Factory.)

"But what about Omega 4?" One, the Protheans already created a Relay, the Conduit. It was smaller, sure, but it sure as hell looked like all the others didn't it? The fact that the Omega 4 Relay looks odd does NOT automatically mean that the Protheans desgined it, even more so after my explination on why they probably couldn't have. And two, my experience in gaming (College student studying game art and design.) tells me that Bioware more than likely designed the Omega 4 "'Cause it looked cool," and "It meshed with the dirty vibe we've got in this game." But for a story driven reason? Maybe the Reapers had the Collectors build the relay so that they could move their newly repurposed ship and base to the core for protection, but due to the same reason why the ship and base look so worse for wear, the relay turned out much the same way. Or maybe, because its linked solely to such an unstable location, the quantum effects linking them together caused a sort of erosion effect. Who knows?

As for why Cerberus is "apparently" working for the Reapers? There's a treasure trove of reasons I'm sure. For example; We know that the Illusive man (Jack Haper) was affacted by the Arca Monolith, a Reaper beacon that caused all who touched it to turn into husks, but not your average "Durrrrr" husks. These "Arca Husks" retained their intelligence. But that's a side point, the main one being that maybe, after thirty or so years, the Reapers have finally gotten through to Jack's mind. Meaning that, during the events of Mass Effect 2, Cerberus WAS trying to stop the reapers, but now that their head honcho's become a reaper agent, their mission has changed. Again, not that big of a stretch.

So there, once again, adequate reasons to throw your theory into doubt. Enjoy.

Oh, and please stop spamming your posts with ridiculous amounts of question marks, and please do a proper grammar sweep; its getting very frustrating trying to decipher your posts.

you guys need a ref. ok! i want a good clean fight! i want a turkey sandwich on rye! i want a fast car and a hot blonde in my lap and my mum in a nice retirement village with tv's and pasta! now lets get it on!

[BentOrgy]

What?! No giraffes?! But where will we get our milk from?!

Seriously though, I guess that was a tad... Er, harsh? But I'm tired of this fool blathering on and on, thread after thread about how unconditional and unassailable his theories are. It started simple, just two people trading ideas back and forth, but after a while, I don't know, maybe all his whack ideas finally built up enough pressure and split a couple of seams in his brain-case?

Point is, when I see stuff that just doesn't make sense, chances are I'm going to say something.... Or many somethings.

[d1sciple]

there's some good points in here but most of them have become so muddied down in faulty guesswork it's becoming a ridiculous mission to try and trawl through it all, so i won't respond to anyone's points specifically as there seems to be paragraphs upon paragraphs and posts upon posts illustrating peoples theories behind their theories. i will though, point out again a few simple facts and my interpretation of them, as simply and as logically as i can.

the prothean repurposing has been answered already in game and quite clearly. virgil explains that the reapers need avatars on the ground and edi directly links a single collector to a specific prothean colony and family strand. therefore they are not made of other races, they are not escapees, they are protheans that have been mutated and manipulated to serve the reapers. their origins and the why has been answered quite clearly in game.

the omega 4 relay isn't different to other relays. it's exactly the same and the only 'difference' is red light over blue. this is an obvious design choice by the devs to make it's significance stand out from the other relays as historically it is the galaxies bermuda triangle. there is no way the protheans or collectors made it, virgil states the conduit as being the last gasp of the protheans, there is no way any race would've been able to manufacture and then hide an entire relay, whether or not the reapers even made the relays is up for questioning.

the collectors made their own ships/base, aided by reaper tech. there can't be any other logical discussion about this. they are also directly controlled by harbinger. there is no question of the reapers hibernating or being too far away to control their avatars as harbingers direct control of the general is specifically pointed out throughout the game, again illustrating the fact that they are tools.

last and not least the point of the thread, cerberus/reapers.

cerberus is not working for the reapers. not during ME1 or ME2. if they were they would be repurposed like the collectors. reapers control, they don't make deals, as they did with saren. now there is some link there and there is an interesting back story with TIM but none of it has been answered clearly unlike the points above except for the fact that they are not directly working with the reapers. if they were they wouldn't need the IFF, they wouldn't need to be playing shadow games and TIM wouldn't need shep.
the only logical explanation i can come up with, after investigation all angles and all media is that TIM is trying to take the place of saren, that he's on a mission to destroy the collectors and put himself in their place.
TIM gained something from the arca monolith as that is the beginning of cerberus and the terrible history we know from the games. what that knowledge is can only be gleaned from his actions after to connecting with it.
what he did after is documented in the games. with all of their experiments TIM was trying to make power, plain and simple. rachni, krogan, biotics, saren, all of it points to cerberus trying to make an army and gain power by whatever means. maybe this was to fight the invading army that TIM knew was coming but what we do know is that by ME2 the cerberus manifesto had changed and TIM is now focused on shep and the collectors.
this is obvious as the point of the game is an all out war against the collectors, not the reapers.
i believe he is focused on doing whatever it takes to save humanity and just like saren believes the reapers will spare cerberus. unlike saren though TIM is not indoctrinated yet so he was able to wage war against the collectors and manoeuvre himself into a position of power.

as i stated first, there are concrete, unarguable answers to some of the questions raised. the only one that is debatable is the OP's original question though i believe that if looked at logically a general answer can be found.

[d1sciple]

BentOrgy wrote...

What?! No giraffes?! But where will we get our milk from?!

Seriously though, I guess that was a tad... Er, harsh? But I'm tired of this fool blathering on and on, thread after thread about how unconditional and unassailable his theories are. It started simple, just two people trading ideas back and forth, but after a while, I don't know, maybe all his whack ideas finally built up enough pressure and split a couple of seams in his brain-case?

Point is, when I see stuff that just doesn't make sense, chances are I'm going to say something.... Or many somethings.

it's the nature of debate and i've quite enjoyed it lol. but yeah some of the theories are getting a bit silly and the logical needs to be seperated clearly so we can move forward. i think it's just a rubicks cube, the answers are actually there and just like figuring out who keysar soze was it's all there in front of us, the stories pretty simple, we should be able to figure it out.