126 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

I'm really unhappy with the direction the dalish elves were taken in DA2, as somebody who played a dalish elf in Origins. I really liked the idea of giving them welsh accents, but everything else about them just goes completely downhill from there.

The Aravels. In Origins they looked like places you could live in. In DA2 they looked like small yachts that you could barely fit five bags in. Did all the Dalish sleep on the floor for the entire time they stayed in Sundermount?

Where were the Halla? Did the elves pull the Aravels up there themselves? What happened to half of the elves we saw in Origins (like the halla keeper), did they disappear?

Why does fixing a mirror solve the elves problems? How will it restore their culture? If Merrill cleansed it then why are they so against her fixing it? If what Merethari said was right, and the Demon would have used it to manifest in the real world, why didn't she just tell Merrill that in the first place? Or tell Hawke, so he/she would stop her? If she did tell Merrill then that makes Merrill's actions throughout the game even more stupid. 

If the Keeper wanted to protect Merrill then why did she go and get possesed by the demon without telling the clan- which not only meant that Merrill could have died fighting the giant demon, but that the clan wanted to kill her as well! And why do they attack Merrill even if Hawke explains what happened?

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas? In Origins they were distrustful of humans but likeable when the Keeper gave you access to their clan. In DA2 all of them except Merethari and Merrill insult you or threaten you at every oppourtunity. They come across as so horrible, even to each other, that Merrill's comment about the keeper telling them to "stop pulling each other's hair" seems completely plausible.

The stories involving the dalish in DA2 just made no sense whatsoever, and their overall execution was as poor as their attitude. It was a real shame, because they had so much potential.

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[IanPolaris]

I am guessing the Dalish were too popular in DAO and were pointed at too many times as a society where mages would live alongside non-mages without apocalyptic results, and Bioware decided: Can't have that. Let's take them down a peg or three.

At least that's my somewhat cynical take.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

I happen to agree with ninety nine percent of that. Merrill explains when we first meet her that they lost their halla shortly after arriving, so they are stranded there. In Act 3, one of the elves randomly says they finally got in touch with another clan. They are on their way there to give them some halla, before the pride hits the elf storm. that is.

[Anyroad2]

I love the new Dalish accents and their looks (though, I think not wearing shoes is stupid).

As far as their attitude goes... I see it as a natural change. They dislike Merrill because she was privileged among her people (she was the keepers first and learned stuff that they didnt) and now is deciding to ****** it away on something that killed 1 or 2 of their clan-mates during Origins. Shes also using Blood Magic. When it comes to people not of their clan I dont blame them. Id be pretty bitter and mean if my family and friends were constantly under threat of Templar and City Guard attacks just for being near Kirkwall.

[dragonflight288]

One of their hunters is tortured, and I'm not sure if he's killed or not, because the templars were after Fenriel. And the lieutenant leading the templars outright says she doesn't care one bit about elves, or "these knife-ears" as she calls them.

[whykikyouwhy]

EJ107 wrote...

Why does fixing a mirror solve the elves problems? How will it restore their culture? If Merrill cleansed it then why are they so against her fixing it? If what Merethari said was right, and the Demon would have used it to manifest in the real world, why didn't she just tell Merrill that in the first place? Or tell Hawke, so he/she would stop her? If she did tell Merrill then that makes Merrill's actions throughout the game even more stupid. 

If the Keeper wanted to protect Merrill then why did she go and get possesed by the demon without telling the clan- which not only meant that Merrill could have died fighting the giant demon, but that the clan wanted to kill her as well! And why do they attack Merrill even if Hawke explains what happened?

I would wager that Merrill knew what the Eluvian had the potential to do, that perhaps that particular Eluvian might have been a portal device (vs just communication) and would have allowed the Dalish to see a different location or realm. Or maybe this was just a case of the idea that by building something and making it work, you could understand the technology behind it. Understand how an Eluvian works, and you are able to comprehend one of the oldest elven devices - then you could either get the others to work (once found, etc) or build new ones.

As for the Keeper not telling anyone - that was a bit of pride on her part. She assumed she knew better, or could do better. That Merrill was being foolish, and her affection for Merrill prompted her to act on what she felt was Merrill's best interest. I'm sure the Keeper thought she had the upper hand, though once possessed by the demon, her decision-making may have been less her, and more the creature.

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas? In Origins they were distrustful of humans but likeable when the Keeper gave you access to their clan. In DA2 all of them except Merethari and Merrill insult you or threaten you at every oppourtunity. They come across as so horrible, even to each other, that Merrill's comment about the keeper telling them to "stop pulling each other's hair" seems completely plausible.

The clan was mistrustful of Merrill, and therefore, Hawke by association. So too, Kirkwall was a tense place - the Dalish could probably see the undercurrents of dissent at work - the mage/templar conflict on the rise. Maybe they were sensing that whole fear cage in full force. That's enough to make even the most amiable people be tense, edgy, and not quite themselves.

[TEWR]

EJ107 wrote...

I'm really unhappy with the direction the dalish elves were taken in DA2, as somebody who played a dalish elf in Origins. I really liked the idea of giving them welsh accents, but everything else about them just goes completely downhill from there.

The Aravels. In Origins they looked like places you could live in. In DA2 they looked like small yachts that you could barely fit five bags in. Did all the Dalish sleep on the floor for the entire time they stayed in Sundermount?

Even in Origins the Aravels didn't look that big or numerous to me. I like to think that we only see some of the aravels in both games, and they vary in size.

Where were the Halla? Did the elves pull the Aravels up there themselves? What happened to half of the elves we saw in Origins (like the halla keeper), did they disappear?

the halla died. Seriously, they're all dead. That's why the elves are stuck on Sundermount. They have no halla. And the halla keeper is still there. She talks about the halla dying and how they were her responsibility, and that even with new halla it won't be the same.

Why does fixing a mirror solve the elves problems? How will it restore their culture? If Merrill cleansed it then why are they so against her fixing it? If what Merethari said was right, and the Demon would have used it to manifest in the real world, why didn't she just tell Merrill that in the first place? Or tell Hawke, so he/she would stop her? If she did tell Merrill then that makes Merrill's actions throughout the game even more stupid. 

First, the Eluvians allow for communication across distances at the very least (Morrigan showed they also act as portals).

Second, the elves have been losing their culture for so long that they're lucky if they find anything.

Third, if Merrill perfected how to make an Eluvian and was able to activate the communication aspect, then the clans could keep in touch with one another easier and not have to rely on meeting once every 10 years. They could also give them to the other clans in case of another halla loss incident.

Fourth, Marethari let her fear of the Eluvian cloud her judgement. The shard was cleansed, and since Merrill goes 7 years without being tainted we know she succeeded.

Fifth, Marethari poisoned Merrill's standing with the clan and had the audacity to beg her to return as if nothing bad would happen and everything would be sunshine and rainbows.

Sixth, Marethari had no grounds for her conclusion since she didn't research anything on the Eluvians. She also told Merrill not to trust a demon, yet she apparently trusts Audacity's word? Hypocrite.

Seventh (I know right?), Merrill was in no danger from a demon that was trapped for centuries in a statue and wouldn't harm anyone (by Marethari's own words no less in the short story).

I conclude that Audacity wanted Marethari, and not Merrill. Audacity also beseeches Marethari to free him in the short story, not Merrill.

If the Keeper wanted to protect Merrill then why did she go and get possesed by the demon without telling the clan- which not only meant that Merrill could have died fighting the giant demon, but that the clan wanted to kill her as well! And why do they attack Merrill even if Hawke explains what happened?

Marethari's an idiot.

And the clan won't attack if you take responsibility. I like to roleplay my Hawkes as only saying that to get the clan to back the **** off, since they're so clouded by anger and rage that they just want someone to blame it on. He doesn't actually blame Merrill (friendship romance all the time)

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas? In Origins they were distrustful of humans but likeable when the Keeper gave you access to their clan. In DA2 all of them except Merethari and Merrill insult you or threaten you at every oppourtunity. They come across as so horrible, even to each other, that Merrill's comment about the keeper telling them to "stop pulling each other's hair" seems completely plausible.

Two entirely different clans. Two entirely different mindsets.

Marethari's clan was only nice to one human. That was Duncan, and he was a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens have the respect of the Dalish because they aren't racist, prejudiced pricks.

Zathrian's clan still doesn't immediately trust anyone outside of a Dalish origin, but they tolerate your presence because you're a Grey Warden. Some, however are asses all the time (Hahren Sarel).

Hawke isn't a Grey Warden. Simple as that. He's a shemlen.

The stories involving the dalish in DA2 just made no sense whatsoever, and their overall execution was as poor as their attitude. It was a real shame, because they had so much potential.

The only thing that I hated about the Dalish was that Marethari was an idiot.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[bleetman]

So you don't feel bad when you slaughter them to the last.

[dragonflight288]

Ummm....they attack Hawke because they are too angry (and arrogant) to check their facts. Hawke may simply be trying to explain what happened with absolutely no threat whatsoever in an attempt to appease them, and they attack anyway.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 20 août 2011 - 03:39 .

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

First, the Eluvians allow for communication across distances at the very least (Morrigan showed they also act as portals).

Second, the elves have been losing their culture for so long that they're lucky if they find anything.

Third, if Merrill perfected how to make an Eluvian and was able to activate the communication aspect, then the clans could keep in touch with one another easier and not have to rely on meeting once every 10 years. They could also give them to the other clans in case of another halla loss incident.

Also, any general magical knowledge Merrill learned during her research into the Eluvians could be shared and perhaps aid others in restoring other magical elven artifacts in the future....assuming she would share this knowledge and communicate it to other Keepers (don't see why she wouldn't).

[TEWR]

bleetman wrote...

So you don't feel bad when you slaughter them to the last.

if you mean me, you misunderstand. I do pick the "take responsibility" route, but my Hawkes don't actually believe what they're saying. I never actually slay the clan.

jlb524 wrote...

Also, any general magical knowledge Merrill learned during her research into the Eluvians could be shared and perhaps aid others in restoring other magical elven artifacts in the future....assuming she would share this knowledge and communicate it to other Keepers (don't see why she wouldn't).

I never thought of that. That's a good point, and something I think Merrill would do.

Merrill would've been an awesome Keeper.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[bleetman]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bleetman wrote...

So you don't feel bad when you slaughter them to the last.

if you mean me, you misunderstand. I do pick the "take responsibility" route, but my Hawkes don't actually believe what they're saying. I never actually slay the clan.

I didn't mean you

[dragonflight288]

Merrill would've been an awesome Keeper.

Had the clan actually listened to her and not forgotten why the Dalish exist.

[TEWR]

bleetman wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bleetman wrote...

So you don't feel bad when you slaughter them to the last.

if you mean me, you misunderstand. I do pick the "take responsibility" route, but my Hawkes don't actually believe what they're saying. I never actually slay the clan.

I didn't mean you

oh whew.... that's a relief

[dragonflight288]

We keep posting things at the same time. lol.

[Herr Uhl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ummm....they attack Hawke because they are too angry (and arrogant) to check their facts. Hawke may simply be trying to explain what happened with absolutely no threat whatsoever in an attempt to appease them, and they attack anyway.

There is an exiled elf that they abhor, and a shem that is inexplicably allowed to wander the camp. Then they go up to the summit of a mountain, where the keeper is, and kill said keeper. Why should they trust you? Consider the Dalish origin if you will (starring the same tribe/clan/whatever), there are three random dudes walking by, let's shoot them! Dalish are not hospitable by nature.

I'd assume that some of them would flee after their warriors died though.

[Mr.House]

A demon told Merrill the mirror could help restore there past so she accepted his offer, started to work on it and did research on it, also able to make a mirror, kinda.

Lack of Halla, it's brought up, there Halla died, which is why they are stuck.

As for the Keeper bit, I'm in the camp with a few people that the demon wnated the Keeper so he tricked Merrill into something that the Keeper was against to weaken her, this worked in it's favor, hoever the Keeper outsmarted it when the transformation from elf to abomination happen in front of Merrill and Hawke so the demon would die. It all goes with what do you believe in. TEWR thinks she's an idiot, I see her as a worrywart that got played and Merrill got dragged along. Yay for opinions.

The landships where changed because of the art style.

As for them attacking it makes perfect sense. If you say she is possessed, they are angry, upset and think it's Merrills fault because if Merrill never played with the mirror andl ose it, that's realistic. If you tell them to back off, well ya, that's asking for a fight right there :x

Modifié par Mr.House, 20 août 2011 - 03:49 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Merrill would've been an awesome Keeper.

Had the clan actually listened to her and not forgotten why the Dalish exist.

I like to think that she teaches the elves in the Alienage about what it means to be an elf, and some run away and form their own clan after Kirkwall falls apart. They take elven apostates with them, and any books on Elven culture that the Gallows may have had.

Since Ferelden's Circle had books on Elven Culture, perhaps Kirkwall did.

[Satyricon331]

I too largely agree with the OP, although I don't even like the new accents. Virtually everything having to do with Marethari made no sense. I don't even think their staying near Kirkwall for so long made much sense - with Meredith being such an anti-mage fanatic, you'd think she'd sic her templars on them. The best I can come up with is that they were having resource constraints, but even there, with 7 years to go you'd think she'd have done something at some point.

And the idea that Master Ilen's father could have successfully fought the Clayne tribes while looking like one of those pointy-eared rodent creatures is just mind-boggling.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

We keep posting things at the same time. lol.

Whoa

[Aliuex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

First, the Eluvians allow for communication across distances at the very least (Morrigan showed they also act as portals).

Second, the elves have been losing their culture for so long that they're lucky if they find anything.

Third, if Merrill perfected how to make an Eluvian and was able to activate the communication aspect, then the clans could keep in touch with one another easier and not have to rely on meeting once every 10 years. They could also give them to the other clans in case of another halla loss incident.

Fourth, Marethari let her fear of the Eluvian cloud her judgement. The shard was cleansed, and since Merrill goes 7 years without being tainted we know she succeeded.

I would love to have heard from Marethari what the Eluvian is used for. I mean, we know a small amount from Morrigan and Merrill reiterates the same thing. Marethari being so against rebuilding the Eluvian in general and her saying that their people meant for them to be forgotten makes me wonder what we don't know about them that the she does. When a Keeper, someone whose job it is to remember, says this piece of technology is better off forgotten it leaves a greater impact on me than when Merrill says that she's sacrificing for her people.

[TEWR]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I too largely agree with the OP, although I don't even like the new accents. Virtually everything having to do with Marethari made no sense. I don't even think their staying near Kirkwall for so long made much sense - with Meredith being such an anti-mage fanatic, you'd think she'd sic her templars on them. The best I can come up with is that they were having resource constraints, but even there, with 7 years to go you'd think she'd have done something at some point.

And the idea that Master Ilen's father could have successfully fought the Clayne tribes while looking like one of those pointy-eared rodent creatures is just mind-boggling.

Templars were sent against the Keeper and her clan. Templars tortured a Dalish child so they could get Feynriel, they and Chantry priests made poorly veiled threats against the Dalish to either "convert or die", and Cullen even remarks upon Marethari's death if you talk to him.

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Templars were sent against the Keeper and her clan. Templars tortured a Dalish child so they could get Feynriel, they and Chantry priests made poorly veiled threats against the Dalish to either "convert or die", and Cullen even remarks upon Marethari's death if you talk to him.

I knew they attempted to get Feynriel, but what makes you say the first sentence?

[TEWR]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Templars were sent against the Keeper and her clan. Templars tortured a Dalish child so they could get Feynriel, they and Chantry priests made poorly veiled threats against the Dalish to either "convert or die", and Cullen even remarks upon Marethari's death if you talk to him.

I knew they attempted to get Feynriel, but what makes you say the first sentence?

The whole "convert or die" thing that we're told happened, and that you wondered why Meredith didn't send Templars against them.

Also, we don't know how many elves are in each clan. We've never been given an actual number, so for all we know there were a couple hundred elves in the clan. Perhaps Meredith was afraid that sending too many Templars would make the mages bolder.

And Meredith's not all that smart.

[Gespenst]

EJ107 wrote...

Why does fixing a mirror solve the elves problems? How will it restore their culture?

It won't solve their problems but it's a part of their history. Restoring their history is sort of the job of a keeper.

EJ107 wrote...

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas?

Probably shortly after the fall of the dales but it goes back a little further - deciding that the second blight simply wasn't their problem was about as jerkish as you can get.

EJ107 wrote...In Origins they were distrustful of humans but likeable when the Keeper gave you access to their clan.

Need I remind you of how the Dalish origin starts?

Hey look, a shem. I should kill you for trespassing shem.
I'm sorry, we didn't know this was your forest!
It's not our forest. You can't just own a forrest. You just came too close to out camp that wasn't there a week ago. No I don't know how you were supposed to know that. Now get out of our forest before I kill you. And don't come back until we're gone. No I don't know how you're supposed to know when that is either.

And then when you get to the camp for Nature of the Beast:

Hi we're here to help!
We don't want your help, if our super special hunters couldn't get this done then you have no chance - no wait, stay, let me tell you why the shemlen just suck so damn much. Oh you're a city elf? Well I hate you the most.

EJ107 wrote...

the keeper telling them to "stop pulling each other's hair" seems completely plausible.

Have you never been on a long trip in the company of siblings?

Modifié par Gespenst, 20 août 2011 - 04:06 .