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Why is so much wrong with the Dalish in DA2?


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#26
Satyricon331

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The whole "convert or die" thing that we're told happened, and that you wondered why Meredith didn't send Templars against them.


Oh, phoo.  Reminding them the humans want them to convert doesn't mean hardly anything.

Also, we don't know how many elves are in each clan. We've never been given an actual number, so for all we know there were a couple hundred elves in the clan. Perhaps Meredith was afraid that sending too many Templars would make the mages bolder.


Yeah, resource constraints just seem to me to present attenuated explanations.  Why not send to the Chantry for more templars?  Or cut the clan's supply lines to starve them out?  Wouldn't the Dalish need to hunt and gather (which itself is odd given the proximity to a supposedly large city)?  It's not impossible, and if someone wants to buy into it I'm not going to argue with them, but it just doesn't seem to make much sense.  

And Meredith's not all that smart.


Agreed!  Maybe it's more a Meredith issue than an issue with the Dalish.

#27
TEWR

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The clan do hunt and gather, and there is a forest around the Sundermount area IIRC, though they aren't able to get that much for some reason. They wouldn't go to the city constantly for supplies because that's just an invitation for trouble, and they're not savages like they're made out to be (sacking wagon convoys and whatnot).

And it was more than just a "Oh please convert!" lol. The woman you talk to tells you they made poorly veiled threats.

I think her name is Visell. She's balding, looks like she's blind, and old. Very, very old. Older than Marethari.

#28
KnightofPhoenix

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It wasn't only the Dalish who were poorly executed imo.
I actually hated their armor. Human looking armor colored green. The ancient elven armor in DA:O at least looked somewhat unique, but it would have been better if they look like actual nomads like DA:O dalish.

And how were the Halla killed?

#29
IanPolaris

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It wasn't only the Dalish who were poorly executed imo.
I actually hated their armor. Human looking armor colored green. The ancient elven armor in DA:O at least looked somewhat unique, but it would have been better if they look like actual nomads like DA:O dalish.

And how were the Halla killed?


The Halla died on the Ships the Dalish had to use to get there as I recall.  Wouldn't suprise me either.  Cargo ships prior to the 19th century had horrific disease rates for live animal cargo, esp the first two weeks after leaving port.

-Polaris

#30
Satyricon331

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The clan do hunt and gather, and there is a forest around the Sundermount area IIRC, though they aren't able to get that much for some reason. They wouldn't go to the city constantly for supplies because that's just an invitation for trouble, and they're not savages like they're made out to be (sacking wagon convoys and whatnot).

And it was more than just a "Oh please convert!" lol. The woman you talk to tells you they made poorly veiled threats.

I think her name is Visell. She's balding, looks like she's blind, and old. Very, very old. Older than Marethari.


Yeah, it hardly seems like BW took the issue seriously.

#31
KnightofPhoenix

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IanPolaris wrote...
The Halla died on the Ships the Dalish had to use to get there as I recall.  Wouldn't suprise me either.  Cargo ships prior to the 19th century had horrific disease rates for live animal cargo, esp the first two weeks after leaving port.

-Polaris


Makes sense.

Stll doesn't really justify them just sitting around for 7 years near a Templar infested city, because apparently the Keeper had a brilliant plan going on.

#32
TEWR

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It wasn't only the Dalish who were poorly executed imo.
I actually hated their armor. Human looking armor colored green. The ancient elven armor in DA:O at least looked somewhat unique, but it would have been better if they look like actual nomads like DA:O dalish.

And how were the Halla killed?



Much of DAII was poorly executed. There were very few well executed parts about the game.

And I too wondered why their armor was human. Bioware made so many new armor sets and yet they couldn't have bothered to make new Dalish armor? DAO armor for the Dalish elves wasn't really any better, save for the ancient elven armor set which predates the kingdom of Arlathan and was also made during the time of Arlathan.

I don't think the halla thing was ever explained. They just.... died. 

*thinks cynical thoughts about why halla weren't included*


 IanPolaris wrote...

The Halla died on the Ships the Dalish had to use to get there as I recall.  Wouldn't suprise me either.  Cargo ships prior to the 19th century had horrific disease rates for live animal cargo, esp the first two weeks after leaving port.

-Polaris


Do you remember where that was said? Because the halla keeper never said that, so I may have missed it from somewhere else.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 04:38 .


#33
IanPolaris

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I don't think it was said explicitly. The Halla Keeper said the Halla died on the journy and then others talked about the death, crowdedness,and filth of the ocean voyage, so I don't think it's quite canon that the Halla died on the voyage (but I might of missed something) but it's definately implied IMO and definately makes sense.

-Polaris

#34
TEWR

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Ah. Yeah, that's about as much of an explanation as we're going to get, so I'll subscribe to it.

#35
Gespenst

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There's some Merrill party banter which suggests that they had Halla and at some point lost them:



I thought it meant that they'd died before they got to the ships and had to walk the rest of the way. Maybe that's why their Aravels are so cut down... I mean what would you do if you had to lug around a caravan by hand?

#36
Foolsfolly

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@ OP:

The Aravels. In Origins they looked like places you could live in. In DA2 they looked like small yachts that you could barely fit five bags in. Did all the Dalish sleep on the floor for the entire time they stayed in Sundermount?


I don't know. Both are really small. You could live in one (like a person could live in a box) but it's not a comfortable living situation in either game. I'd have to boot up Origins and then DA2 to cross reference the two but they didn't seem that different to me. Well, they had an art change to them like almost everything about the Dalish.

Where were the Halla? Did the elves pull the Aravels up there themselves? What happened to half of the elves we saw in Origins (like the halla keeper), did they disappear?


I have nothing to back this up and it's entirely my own opinion but...

I think BioWare didn't have the time to model Halla so they had a few voice actors briefly mention it as a band-aid. (seriously does any major character mention the lack of Halla? Think about it.) We know they wanted to do a shirtless Fenris but didn't have the time. We know there's all of about 20 different outfits enemies wear and most enemies are mages, demons, templars, and abominations. It's not like there's a lot of variety in the enemy types in this game. They brought us the new Qunari look but it's only three models (Arishok, Saarbases, and all other Qunari). They didn't have the time to randomize Qunari faces like they do all other races. I can see Halla getting edged out due to time and money restraints.

Why does fixing a mirror solve the elves problems? How will it restore their culture?


I've had arguments about this on this very board. I have no idea. I don't think Merrill has any idea either. She's just possessed by the idea. I think, perhaps, she's just curious by nature especially of anything that smells like Arltathan. And in this case she's rationalizing any and everything to sate her curiosity. In this case, it's not her it's about saving her people. Likewise nothing's her fault it's everyone else's fault.

I think this enough of an explanation for me. It seems in character, in my opinion, and the game does not directly state otherwise (yet). I know others will not feel this way. And I know there's quite a few who find Merrill flawless and think that makes her more interesting than a cute, lovable, and flawed character does.

If Merrill cleansed it then why are they so against her fixing it? If what Merethari said was right, and the Demon would have used it to manifest in the real world, why didn't she just tell Merrill that in the first place? Or tell Hawke, so he/she would stop her? If she did tell Merrill then that makes Merrill's actions throughout the game even more stupid.


We don't know what was said prior to her being booted out of the clan. But the game's rather clear that both parties have said their fill and are tired of talking about it. This is done, likely, to keep player suspense. If they came right out and said, "Hey. That Mirror will allow the demon to come out." It would make more sense but you wouldn't be sitting there in Act 2 screaming for the act to end so you'd see what happens with the Mirror (as I was my first time through).

Sadly the answer to that question was "Nothing."

If the Keeper wanted to protect Merrill then why did she go and get possesed by the demon without telling the clan- which not only meant that Merrill could have died fighting the giant demon, but that the clan wanted to kill her as well! And why do they attack Merrill even if Hawke explains what happened?


Plot demanded.

No seriously. I understand the love and stupidity that brings to take the bullet for Merrill. But there really isn't any need for the entire clan to die like that. I'm not against Merrill's actions leading to events where the clan is completely and utterly destroyed. That's a nifty idea. What I dislike is the way it was handled.

"The Keeper was possessed. We had to kill her."
"Argh! Our anger towards you for her action is one of such strength that we'll telepathically tell all the others in the camp far below to attack you on sight!"

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas?


I always thought they were jerkasses. That whole "only true elves" and all ... that's like saying any one nation are the true humans in the world. (Or on a smaller scale only one culture in a nation is the true culture of that nation.)

And then there was that chick from Awakening and the other one from Witch Hunt. Both very much jerkasses.

I didn't see any real difference in their portrayal other than the lack of "One with Nature" bit. And the fact that they field heavy metal armors now instead of their unique light leathers. Which I was sad to see them loose.

The stories involving the dalish in DA2 just made no sense whatsoever, and their overall execution was as poor as their attitude. It was a real shame, because they had so much potential.


I don't know about that. They're literally every wood elf in everything ever.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 20 août 2011 - 06:45 .


#37
Foolsfolly

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Gespenst wrote...

There's some Merrill party banter which suggests that they had Halla and at some point lost them:



I thought it meant that they'd died before they got to the ships and had to walk the rest of the way. Maybe that's why their Aravels are so cut down... I mean what would you do if you had to lug around a caravan by hand?


Huh. I didn't remember that. I still think they didn't have time to finish Halla models.

#38
Icy Magebane

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EJ107 wrote...

Also, since when did they become the biggest jerkasses in Thedas?


IMO, this has always been the case.  It started when that storyteller started insulting my Warden before he even knew anything about him, and pretty much continued from that point on.  Don't even get me started on Velana.  Yeah, I don't like Dalish elves one bit...

But anyway... I'll attribute the lack of aravels and halla to the overall lack of polish that plagues the game... lots of small details were forgotten or ignored.  Nothing more to it than that IMO... I mean, you could see it as a kind of ramshackle Dalish camp since they weren't supposed to be there for long (although they stayed for what... 7 years???)... but it's probably just a matter of not having the time to put all the details into the game that we would have liked.

#39
Xilizhra

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I think this enough of an explanation for me. It seems in character, in my opinion, and the game does not directly state otherwise (yet). I know others will not feel this way. And I know there's quite a few who find Merrill flawless and think that makes her more interesting than a cute, lovable, and flawed character does.

I won't say Merrill is flawless, but I will say that Marethari was either an idiot or downright evil and that Merrill's plan wasn't inherently dangerous to anyone until maybe Act 3, and Marethari made it much worse then.

#40
aries1001

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Doesn't Merrill say at one point that she used blood magic to cleanse the shard from the mirror?
As for the Halla, I clearly remember Merrill mentionining that they're going to get new Halla from another clan after visiting the Dalish Elves in chapter two or three, I think...

As for the Dalish elves being jerkasses, well they are - they think they have the real Elven culture and that other people, including shems and city elves are - well - bad news. City elves they see as having abandoned their traditional ways, being sort of forces into slavery (as they see it) - and not live in freedom.

#41
SkittlesKat96

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I'm going with pretty much everything Ethereal said...I reckon you guys might be overreacting a bit and just trying to find more ways to hate the game and hate it for changing things.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 20 août 2011 - 10:00 .


#42
LobselVith8

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The whole "convert or die" thing that we're told happened, and that you wondered why Meredith didn't send Templars against them.


You make a good point, Ethereal. In Act III, the Dalish mention being threatened because they won't convert to the Chantry of Andraste (during "A Murder of Crows)."

Foolsfolly wrote...
I think this enough of an explanation for me. It seems in character, in my opinion, and the game does not directly state otherwise (yet). I know others will not feel this way. And I know there's quite a few who find Merrill flawless and think that makes her more interesting than a cute, lovable, and flawed character does.

I don't think it's an issue of people thinking Merrill is flawless, but that they agree with her. I don't think anyone claims she's flawless, because she has flaws, and is dealing with culture shock when it comes to human society - some people simply have no issue with her use of blood magic because they don't think it's evil (which I agree with) and think Merrill risking her life for the Eluvian is for a worthy goal (which she believes can help the People). I don't see the problem with Merrill risking her life on technology that may fundamentally change the lives of elves across the continent, especially since Hawke is constantly risking the lives of his companions when he gets their aid on dangerous missions (even if it's for his personal gain and not theirs).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 août 2011 - 06:23 .


#43
Macropodmum

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I think the only thing that made me go WTH was the ears, it looked like someone hung them up by their ears to dry. I did get used to them after a while though...

#44
ReiSilver

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aries1001 wrote...
As for the Dalish elves being jerkasses, well they are - they think they have the real Elven culture and that other people, including shems and city elves are - well - bad news. City elves they see as having abandoned their traditional ways, being sort of forces into slavery (as they see it) - and not live in freedom.


Uh how does this make them all jerks?
Also who said Ariane from Witch Hunt was a jerk? She was awesome! Mischievous, not above teasing or telling you her opinion but also nice and understanding (Is she more hostile to a non Dalish warden? She was perfectly nice to my Mahariel).
I love how if there are a group of people who are mistrustful/hostile to the PC by default they are obviously all jerks. How dare they not be open and instantly warm to my PC! Those Jerks!
The Dalish have good reason to be wary of any human sniffing around their camp (I swear it's like people telling feminists not to sound so angry *headdesk*). And they are the only elves practising their old culture, the city elves were forced to convert to the Chantry and live in ghettos where they aren't even allowed to carry swords by law. (The City Elves were criminally over looked during the game) How do you communicate that succinctly?
The clan didn't boot Merrill out, she chose to go so she could work on the mirror. If I had a sister, beloved by our parents, who decided she wanted to leave home, abandoning her responsibilities, so she could work on something that had killed other family members, likely going to hurt herself in the process I'd be pretty angry with her too.

I imagine Merethari had already told Merrill the demon would try and use the Mirror to break into our world, (Merrill tells you they argue in circles with each other) but we all know reasoning doesn't work with Merrill when it comes to that mirror, she would have just said "No I'll handle it, believe in me and I'll fix the mirror and if something goes wrong I'll be the only one to die herp di derp"
Merethari didn't tell Hawke because she wanted Merrill to come around on her own, and maybe feared Hawke would turn Merrill over to the templars if she told him/her straight away.

Once again the things wrong are the same problems that plague most of DA2, rushed and rail roaded.
I would have loved if they had taken the time to make proper Aravels, Halla, show more of the clan.
I would have loved if they did give you the option of seeing Merrill finish the mirror complete with the demons instructions allowing it to come through kill everyone and leaving you with a non-standard game over :whistle:

#45
Herr Uhl

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ReiSilver wrote...

I love how if there are a group of people who are mistrustful/hostile to the PC by default they are obviously all jerks. How dare they not be open and instantly warm to my PC! Those Jerks!
The Dalish have good reason to be wary of any human sniffing around their camp (I swear it's like people telling feminists not to sound so angry *headdesk*). And they are the only elves practising their old culture, the city elves were forced to convert to the Chantry and live in ghettos where they aren't even allowed to carry swords by law. (The City Elves were criminally over looked during the game) How do you communicate that succinctly?
The clan didn't boot Merrill out, she chose to go so she could work on the mirror. If I had a sister, beloved by our parents, who decided she wanted to leave home, abandoning her responsibilities, so she could work on something that had killed other family members, likely going to hurt herself in the process I'd be pretty angry with her too.


I'd call people who are openly hostile against anyone other than a member of their people jerks

And on a sidenote, since when is the right to bear arms a basic human right?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 20 août 2011 - 01:27 .


#46
esper

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While I am on Merrill side of the mirror thing, I can certainly see how the clan comes to the conlusion it does.
1. A shem is allowed into the camp because of a dogdy deal with a legend witch.
2. Merrill leaves the clan after a long argument with the Keeper, who is the clan leader.
3. Mathari continues in the clans presence to empathizes how dangerous the mirror is, and what a stupid evil thing it is Merrill does.
4. It's been 7 years, they have finally gotten promises of new Halla and they have long overstayed their welcome in Sundermount, yet Mathari refuses to move the clan
5, Merrill, who is now percieved as a 'flat-ear' comes back with the shem and goes up the grave yard. Mathari follows when no one comes back the hunter follows as well only to find their Keep slain by the shem and Merrill - It doesn't matter that Hawke can claim Mathari was an abomination, it is the keepers body they find and quite frankly why should they believe Hawke?

And the dalish has always been jerks to outsider, loosing their homeland tend to do that to people.
I don't get the basic right to bear arms either, but when you live in a world like Thedas and the guards aren't on you side, it is a huge weakness not being allowed to have weapons.

#47
Ianamus

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Foolsfolly wrote...

@ OP:

The Aravels. In Origins they looked like places you could live in. In DA2 they looked like small yachts that you could barely fit five bags in. Did all the Dalish sleep on the floor for the entire time they stayed in Sundermount?

I don't know. Both are really small. You could live in one (like a person could live in a box) but it's not a comfortable living situation in either game. I'd have to boot up Origins and then DA2 to cross reference the two but they didn't seem that different to me. Well, they had an art change to them like almost everything about the Dalish.

In Origins:

Image IPB

In Dragon Age 2:

Image IPB


That's the best comparison I could find. The first one looks like a caravan, the second one looks like a small boat with wheels.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I'm going with pretty much everything Ethereal said...I reckon you guys might be overreacting a bit and just trying to find more ways to hate the game and hate it for changing things.


But I liked the game! Not as much as origins, but I liked it overall, and have come to it's defense before. 

I just don't like the way the Dalish were handled. People have given some interesting idea's, and I suppose that they may have been jerkish before, and that fixing the mirror may have helped to restore (Although it would in no way have done so on it's own) Dalish culture. 

However, that does not change the fact that the dalish are handed the idiot ball far too often in this game. Am I supposed to believe that Merethari, a wise elven keeper, didn't think about just telling Merrill or Hawke about why the eluvian was so dangerous, and would let the entire clan want to kill her? I just see her as badly written. Same with Pol- Am I supposed to believe that he runs from Merrill into a giant monster because the keeper told him spooky stories about her? It's impossible not to agree with Merrill when everybody else just acts so stupid.

They all attack your party (Which potentially includes the Guard-Captain of Kirkwall!) if Hawke tells the elves that Merethari sacrificed herself. Who thought that was a good idea? it also has incredibly unfortunate implications when you remember that there were children in this clan in Origins. 

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2011 - 01:55 .


#48
IanPolaris

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Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd call people who are openly hostile against anyone other than a member of their people jerks

And on a sidenote, since when is the right to bear arms a basic human right?


Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

#49
whykikyouwhy

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IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd call people who are openly hostile against anyone other than a member of their people jerks

And on a sidenote, since when is the right to bear arms a basic human right?


Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

A "human" right would imply that the right existed before arms existed. Perhaps therein was the crux of the question. Not so much what was written into any specific law, of any specific country, but the human application.

#50
Herr Uhl

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EJ107 wrote...


That's the best comparison I could find. The first one looks like a caravan, the second one looks like a small boat with wheels.


The description in Origins.

Excerpt from Codex entry: Aravels in DAO

The aravel are a unique sight, beautiful in their swooping curvature, and adorned with broad hoods and bright silken cloths that flap in the wind, often displaying the noble banners that once flew over that family's house. Most humans refer to the aravel as "landships," for in a strong wind it can often appear as if the elves travel in long boats with sails high overhead to announce their arrival (or warn others away).


I'd say the new ones fit the description far better.