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[IanPolaris]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd call people who are openly hostile against anyone other than a member of their people jerks

And on a sidenote, since when is the right to bear arms a basic human right?

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

A "human" right would imply that the right existed before arms existed. Perhaps therein was the crux of the question. Not so much what was written into any specific law, of any specific country, but the human application.

I agree, and I would argue that the Right to Bear Arms is a human right in this applications.  The Founders of the US certainly thought so and cited Hobbes.  The reasoning is fairly simple:  All beings have the right to defend themselves including from the state.  It's the only unversal right (according to Hobbes) people have, and so that logically must include the Right to Bear Arms.

Just because most civilizations have taken that right away from most people out of fear of them does not mean that the right did not preexist.  It might mean (and iMHO does mean) that the ruling elites of most civilizations feared the will of their own people (and generally for good reason).

-Polaris

Edit:  And "arms" doesn't mean firearms or even swords.  It means the right to use weapons (cavemen would consider a bone club and a spear to be 'arms' by this standard).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 20 août 2011 - 02:05 .

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. Myleene Klass even got an official warning for waving a knife at tresspassers through a window.

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[esper]

EJ107 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

@ OP:

The Aravels. In Origins they looked like places you could live in. In DA2 they looked like small yachts that you could barely fit five bags in. Did all the Dalish sleep on the floor for the entire time they stayed in Sundermount?

I don't know. Both are really small. You could live in one (like a person could live in a box) but it's not a comfortable living situation in either game. I'd have to boot up Origins and then DA2 to cross reference the two but they didn't seem that different to me. Well, they had an art change to them like almost everything about the Dalish.

In Origins:



In Dragon Age 2:




That's the best comparison I could find. The first one looks like a caravan, the second one looks like a small boat with wheels.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I'm going with pretty much everything Ethereal said...I reckon you guys might be overreacting a bit and just trying to find more ways to hate the game and hate it for changing things.

But I liked the game! Not as much as origins, but I liked it overall, and have come to it's defense before. 

I just don't like the way the Dalish were handled. People have given some interesting idea's, and I suppose that they may have been jerkish before, and that fixing the mirror may have helped to restore (Although it would in no way have done so on it's own) Dalish culture. 

However, that does not change the fact that the dalish are handed the idiot ball far too often in this game. Am I supposed to believe that Merethari, a wise elven keeper, didn't think about just telling Merrill or Hawke about why the eluvian was so dangerous, and would let the entire clan want to kill her? I just see her as badly written. Same with Pol- Am I supposed to believe that he runs from Merrill into a giant monster because the keeper told him spooky stories about her? It's impossible not to agree with Merrill when everybody else just acts so stupid.

They all attack your party (Which potentially includes the Guard-Captain of Kirkwall!) if Hawke tells the elves that Merethari sacrificed herself. Who thought that was a good idea? it also has incredibly unfortunate implications when you remember that there were children in this clan in Origins. 

The keeper didn't just tell Merrill and Hawke because Merrill won't listen. Merrill and Mathari are both quite pridefull and refuses to believe that the other might have a point (hence the pride demon). And we don't know if Mathari was right about the mirror, she could just as well have been manipulated by the demon. The clan doesn't attack you because of the killer mirror, they attack you because their Keeper is dead and Hawke and Merrill are more and less found standing over her still warm body and they know that Merrill has been arguing with Mathari for years, they properly believe Mathari when she said that Merrill's work was dangerous. How are they supposed to come to the conclusion that it wasn't Merrill's fault?
It is not stupid to attack Hawke, they have Hawke's team outnumbered by far and they have no reason what so ever to respect Aveline's authority.
Mathari was properly wise, but she was blinded by love and pride.  Love also motherly love (which I believe she had towards Merrill) can make people do stupid things. 
Yeah, killing the clan felt awfull, but it is supposed to be an awfull thing to do.
And Pol is just plain stupid, not going to argue with that. 

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

I would say that the UK is violating your basic human right.  I also would point to the crime trends in the US vs UK and the recent London riots and ask if disarming the population was *really* the good idea a lot of Brits used to think it was......

Fundamentally, it's a difference of opinion between the American and European mindsets.  I also note that even in the UK, it was required untili fairly recently in history for Yeomanry or better to not only be armed but practice their arms on a regular basis!

-Polaris

[esper]

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

You would definitly be arrested in my country too, we can get arrested for carrying a too long pocket knife. But in Thedas the law isn't working very well and elves are sort of ignored so not being able to carry arms, is a huge weakness in a society where violence is so wide spread.

[IanPolaris]

esper wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

You would definitly be arrested in my country too, we can get arrested for carrying a too long pocket knife. But in Thedas the law isn't working very well and elves are sort of ignored so not being able to carry arms, is a huge weakness in a society where violence is so wide spread.

Indeed and that's exactly the sort of society Hobbes posits in his works and where the Right to Bear Arms is first argued.  Indeed, when you conquer a people and want to keep them down and submissive, the first thing an army does (ANY army) is toconfiscate all the firearms.

That's not to protect society.  That's to protect the ruling class (and/or occupying army).

That definately applies to the elves in Thedas.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I am well aware of the arms restrictions in places in the us, esp Urban ones such as D.C. and Chicago, but those laws have undergone a severe hit recently since SCOTUS has questioned the constitutionality of most of these laws (see DC case).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 20 août 2011 - 02:15 .

[whykikyouwhy]

IanPolaris wrote...

esper wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

You would definitly be arrested in my country too, we can get arrested for carrying a too long pocket knife. But in Thedas the law isn't working very well and elves are sort of ignored so not being able to carry arms, is a huge weakness in a society where violence is so wide spread.

Indeed and that's exactly the sort of society Hobbes posits in his works and where the Right to Bear Arms is first argued.  Indeed, when you conquer a people and want to keep them down and submissive, the first thing an army does (ANY army) is toconfiscate all the firearms.

That's not to protect society.  That's to protect the ruling class (and/or occupying army).

That definately applies to the elves in Thedas.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I am well aware of the arms restrictions in places in the us, esp Urban ones such as D.C. and Chicago, but those laws have undergone a severe hit recently since SCOTUS has questioned the constitutionality of most of these laws (see DC case).

Perhaps, in order to maintain the integrity of this thread, we should focus on the philosophical aspects of arms (or magics) bearing, specifically how it relates to the societies in Thedas. This is one area that could do without a RL-example/comparison. Yes?

Yes, I think so.

[Ianamus]

esper wrote...

The keeper didn't just tell Merrill and Hawke because Merrill won't listen. Merrill and Mathari are both quite pridefull and refuses to believe that the other might have a point (hence the pride demon).

She could have told Hawke. If my Hawke knew that the Demon wanted to use the mirror to manifest itself he would have destroyed it himself if he had to.

esper wrote...

And we don't know if Mathari was right about the mirror, she could just as well have been manipulated by the demon. 

Fair enough, although it made sense. Why else would the demon agree to help Merrill? (unless your saying it was a ploy to possess Merethari all along?)

esper wrote...

It is not stupid to attack Hawke, they have Hawke's team outnumbered by far and they have no reason what so ever to respect Aveline's authority.

I'm pretty sure that if the Dalish elves, who are already on bad terms with the templars, killed the Captain of the Guard, there would be serious reprecussions. It would give Meredith and the chantry a brilliant excuse to send the guard and the templars to slaughter the elves, and they would be completely justified in my opinion.

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2011 - 02:21 .

[esper]

IanPolaris wrote...

esper wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Since the right to defend yourself has been a basic human right (see Hobbes).  As an American, the Right to Bear Arms is the right to defend myself against others (including the state) and that's a pretty damned basic human right.

-Polaris

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

You would definitly be arrested in my country too, we can get arrested for carrying a too long pocket knife. But in Thedas the law isn't working very well and elves are sort of ignored so not being able to carry arms, is a huge weakness in a society where violence is so wide spread.

Indeed and that's exactly the sort of society Hobbes posits in his works and where the Right to Bear Arms is first argued.  Indeed, when you conquer a people and want to keep them down and submissive, the first thing an army does (ANY army) is toconfiscate all the firearms.

That's not to protect society.  That's to protect the ruling class (and/or occupying army).

That definately applies to the elves in Thedas.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I am well aware of the arms restrictions in places in the us, esp Urban ones such as D.C. and Chicago, but those laws have undergone a severe hit recently since SCOTUS has questioned the constitutionality of most of these laws (see DC case).

The problem with the elves is not wherever that bearing arms is a basic right, the problem is that everyone else is allowed to carry weapons (at least they do), so yes I would agree that restriction comes from the elves being the conquered people.
Add that the elves lives in ghettoes, and apparently the only proper job they are expected to hold is servant (unless they are really lucky) and that a hugh portion of the humans seems to think that the already scares laws, doesn't apply when the assulted party is an elf and I understand why the dalish is so hostile towards 'shems'.  And we have not even started with the difference in religion yet. 

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

I would say that the UK is violating your basic human right.  I also would point to the crime trends in the US vs UK and the recent London riots and ask if disarming the population was *really* the good idea a lot of Brits used to think it was......

-Polaris

I don't want to think how bad the riots would have been if the majority of rioters had access to guns as well

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Huh. Here in UK you would be arrested and imprisoned for assaulting a burglar in your own home. 

I would say that the UK is violating your basic human right.  I also would point to the crime trends in the US vs UK and the recent London riots and ask if disarming the population was *really* the good idea a lot of Brits used to think it was......

-Polaris

I don't want to think how bad the riots would have been if the majority of rioters had access to guns as well

Please.  Even if the UK has US style gun laws, the rioters would for the most part not have had guns.  That didn't even happen in the LA riots some decades ago in the US.  I call that viewing with alarm.

I am of the general opinion that an armed society is a polite one and given the changes in crime rates, there is at least some evidence for this.

However, I don't want to turn this into a political thread.  I would say there is a valid argument that the Right to Bear Arms is a Human Right (depending on if you take the American or European view) and it's especially important to be able to bear arms if the State either will not or can not protect you (or is flat out against you).  All three seem to be true in Thedas at least w/r/t Elves.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[esper]

EJ107 wrote...

esper wrote...

The keeper didn't just tell Merrill and Hawke because Merrill won't listen. Merrill and Mathari are both quite pridefull and refuses to believe that the other might have a point (hence the pride demon).

She could have told Hawke. If my Hawke knew that the Demon wanted to use the mirror to manifest itself he would have destroyed it himself if he had to.

esper wrote...

And we don't know if Mathari was right about the mirror, she could just as well have been manipulated by the demon. 

Fair enough, although it made sense. Why else would the demon agree to help Merrill? (unless your saying it was a ploy to possess Merethari all along?)

esper wrote...

It is not stupid to attack Hawke, they have Hawke's team outnumbered by far and they have no reason what so ever to respect Aveline's authority.

I'm pretty sure that if the Dalish elves, who are already on bad terms with the templars, killed the Captain of the Guard, there would be serious reprecussions. It would give Meredith and the chantry a brilliant excuse to send the guard and the templars to slaughter the elves, and they would be completely justified in my opinion.

She could have told Hawke, and properly should have told Hawke, but I think that Matheri assumes that Hawke is either on Merrill's side and won't believe her (friendship) or that Merrill won't listen to Hawke as well and would attack Hawke is s/he tried to smash the mirror(rival). Remember the Keeper doesn't want Merrill dead. At least I don't think that.
 
Personally I think the demon played both of them. It could properly sense Mathari's love for Merrill so it told the Keeper that it would slay Merrill and esacpe in order to make Mathari think about freeing it (In order to slay it which she can't), and I think that had Matheri not become an abomination it had properly demanded to be set free of the statue in order to further help Merrill (Not that it is sure that she would have done it, but Night Terror shows that demons can cloud your jugdement ). But the story is purposely left ambigious so it can be seen as both Mathari and Merrill are right.

No doubt slaying the guard captain have consequences, but we don't know if the dalish even knew Aveline's status - I doubt they bothered to research it, and if they have no problems in killing templars I can't see how they should have problems killing a guards, besides they were getting their Halla soon and without a Keeper they would properly move - After all even Merrill said that they should have moved on ages ago. I doubt that they would have waited for Meridith to come and slaughter them.
And Hawke and Merrill still killed their Keeper (in their eyes). Hawke killed their leader, and they think that Merrill is to blame for the abominationhood as well (if they even believe that) They can't let you esapce without punishment, so unless you push all the blame to Merrill and her blood magic, they can't let you walk free.    

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

My own personal opinion of whats wrong with the Dalish goes even beyond DA2, and is my opinion of the race in general.

The Dalish are too stuck in the past. They wander trying to collect and rebuild a failed past, instead of taking what they have and starting anew on a new future. Their existance seems defined by myths and pipe dreams of a supposedly glorious lost past.  Whatever that past was, it failed them. They were crushed in Arlathan, and were crushed in the Dales. Instead of trying to ressurect these failures, they should be rethinking their current philosophy and goals, and reshape themselves into a race and culture that is viable to exist and prosper with the changing times, on their own terms.

Not that there is anything wrong with wishing to find as much of their lost heritage as they can. But not as a prime focus. As of now, only two things seem to define theri existance: delusions of a mythic, glorious past, and a hatred and bitterness for anyone who is not a Dalish elf. With these two things as their guiding principles, the Dalish are destined for history's trash can.

That, at least, is my own personal opinion and intepretation of the Dalish, based on what I've seen.

[ReiSilver]

On the right to bear arms bit: It's not that I think it's a human right; it's that it is the right of people outside the alienage but not elves inside. You find posters saying:
"Elves who bare swords will die upon them"
I don't remember any of our PCs needing a license to carry a sword or any notes that prohibit the populace aside of city elves carrying weapons.
That is my point.

[Prince_12]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

My own personal opinion of whats wrong with the Dalish goes even beyond DA2, and is my opinion of the race in general.

The Dalish are too stuck in the past. They wander trying to collect and rebuild a failed past, instead of taking what they have and starting anew on a new future. Their existance seems defined by myths and pipe dreams of a supposedly glorious lost past.  Whatever that past was, it failed them. They were crushed in Arlathan, and were crushed in the Dales. Instead of trying to ressurect these failures, they should be rethinking their current philosophy and goals, and reshape themselves into a race and culture that is viable to exist and prosper with the changing times, on their own terms.

Not that there is anything wrong with wishing to find as much of their lost heritage as they can. But not as a prime focus. As of now, only two things seem to define theri existance: delusions of a mythic, glorious past, and a hatred and bitterness for anyone who is not a Dalish elf. With these two things as their guiding principles, the Dalish are destined for history's trash can.

That, at least, is my own personal opinion and intepretation of the Dalish, based on what I've seen.

I agree with your post, but that's why I like them even more. They aren't some powerful, immortal race that "holds" the world in their hands like in most fantasy games/movies/books. They are stubborn, but they are different. And thank the maker for that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Prince_12 wrote...

I agree with your post, but that's why I like them even more. They aren't some powerful, immortal race that "holds" the world in their hands like in most fantasy games/movies/books. They are stubborn, but they are different. And thank the maker for that.

Oh, I definitely like the elves as they are portrayed in DAO better than other gaming worlds, because they are not beautiful, powerful, immortals who float around in their completely unrealistic magical kingdoms all pretty and perfect and sparkly. That common cliche got old for me years ago, as I've never really cared for races or entities that are "perfect" or whatever.

In fact, the problems the elves face in DA are quite human ones, so to speak, and even more so, it is strongly suggested that they played an equal role in their downfall and current problems as much as the humans did. They are incredibly flawed as a people, and this makes them more interesting and multidimensional than the classic fantasy setting elf.

The only other setting that also features elves in a unique and interesting light is The Witcher. In fact, on a few fronts, I even like The Witcher's elven portrayal even better, because it is quite balanced and realistic. The elven rebels in that setting aren't a "poor race oppressed by evil human overlords for no reason other than evil and meaness", they are pissed off because they are no longer the invaders, conquorers, and oppressors like they once were.

[Xilizhra]

In fact, the problems the elves face in DA are quite human ones, so to speak, and even more so, it is strongly suggested that they played an equal role in their downfall and current problems as much as the humans did. They are incredibly flawed as a people, and this makes them more interesting and multidimensional than the classic fantasy setting elf.

What role did they play in being flattened by Tevinter?

[ReiSilver]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

My own personal opinion of whats wrong with the Dalish goes even beyond DA2, and is my opinion of the race in general.

The Dalish are too stuck in the past. They wander trying to collect and rebuild a failed past, instead of taking what they have and starting anew on a new future. Their existance seems defined by myths and pipe dreams of a supposedly glorious lost past.  Whatever that past was, it failed them. They were crushed in Arlathan, and were crushed in the Dales. Instead of trying to ressurect these failures, they should be rethinking their current philosophy and goals, and reshape themselves into a race and culture that is viable to exist and prosper with the changing times, on their own terms.

Not that there is anything wrong with wishing to find as much of their lost heritage as they can. But not as a prime focus. As of now, only two things seem to define theri existance: delusions of a mythic, glorious past, and a hatred and bitterness for anyone who is not a Dalish elf. With these two things as their guiding principles, the Dalish are destined for history's trash can.

That, at least, is my own personal opinion and intepretation of the Dalish, based on what I've seen.

...they don't travel around solely looking for lost lore.
They travel because they don't have a homeland. They can't just set up shop somewhere because they have no land that belongs to them.
If they stayed in one place too long Templars would come after their Keepers and people who believe them to be dangerous savages will try to run them off their land, or the Chantry will show up trying to convert them.
That's one of the reasons why the Dalish getting land as a boon at the end of DA:O is such a big deal for them. (One that I wish we had more information on)

If you're suggesting that they need to give up their gods and try to homogenise with the current human populace then you don't understand how important it is to them to keep their culture and freedom, because the Chantry dominated human lands aren't going to just let them be without them giving that up. And what happens then? You get the lovely Alienages.

The one trying to bring back old glory is Merrill, she does not speak for all Dalish elves, most of which over the coarse of two games and expansions express merely wanting to live by their own ways, freely, without being hassled and threatened by outsiders. If anything the majority appear to be in a holding pattern.

The Boon Lands are the first chance we see in game for that to change (Unfortunately all we heard about that is "I wish that went better" thanks for the depressing ambiguity there Alistair/Bioware <_<)

Their culture is important enough to them that they tattoo symbols of their gods onto their faces (It's like a great big middle finger to the Chantry, I love it)

[Xilizhra]

The one trying to bring back old glory is Merrill, she does not speak for all Dalish elves, most of which over the coarse of two games and expansions express merely wanting to live by their own ways, freely, without being hassled and threatened by outsiders. If anything the majority appear to be in a holding pattern.

Actually, the whole cultural drive for the Dalish is reclaiming their old history so that the gods can return and Elvenhan can rise again. Merrill's just the only one who actually does something about it.

[TEWR]

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

The one trying to bring back old glory is Merrill, she does not speak for all Dalish elves, most of which over the coarse of two games and expansions express merely wanting to live by their own ways, freely, without being hassled and threatened by outsiders. If anything the majority appear to be in a holding pattern.

Actually, the whole cultural drive for the Dalish is reclaiming their old history so that the gods can return and Elvenhan can rise again. Merrill's just the only one who actually does something about it.

Where did you get that from?

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The one trying to bring back old glory is Merrill, she does not speak for all Dalish elves, most of which over the coarse of two games and expansions express merely wanting to live by their own ways, freely, without being hassled and threatened by outsiders. If anything the majority appear to be in a holding pattern.

Actually, the whole cultural drive for the Dalish is reclaiming their old history so that the gods can return and Elvenhan can rise again. Merrill's just the only one who actually does something about it.

Where did you get that from?

Sebastian: So what do you believe, Merrill?
Merrill: Our gods abandoned us long ago. They haven't answered our prayers since the fall of Arlathan.
Merrill: When we've proven that we're elves again, that we didn't lose everything, they'll come back to us.
Sebastian: We say the same of the Maker.
Sebastian: Perhaps they're only different names for the same divine force that created the world.
Merrill: The Maker wants you to be elves?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The one trying to bring back old glory is Merrill, she does not speak for all Dalish elves, most of which over the coarse of two games and expansions express merely wanting to live by their own ways, freely, without being hassled and threatened by outsiders. If anything the majority appear to be in a holding pattern.

Actually, the whole cultural drive for the Dalish is reclaiming their old history so that the gods can return and Elvenhan can rise again. Merrill's just the only one who actually does something about it.

Where did you get that from?

Sebastian: So what do you believe, Merrill?
Merrill: Our gods abandoned us long ago. They haven't answered our prayers since the fall of Arlathan.
Merrill: When we've proven that we're elves again, that we didn't lose everything, they'll come back to us.
Sebastian: We say the same of the Maker.
Sebastian: Perhaps they're only different names for the same divine force that created the world.
Merrill: The Maker wants you to be elves?

Oh Merrill


Merrill's awesome.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Where did you get that from?

Sebastian: So what do you believe, Merrill?
Merrill: Our gods abandoned us long ago. They haven't answered our prayers since the fall of Arlathan.
Merrill: When we've proven that we're elves again, that we didn't lose everything, they'll come back to us.
Sebastian: We say the same of the Maker.
Sebastian: Perhaps they're only different names for the same divine force that created the world.
Merrill: The Maker wants you to be elves?

Odd, I remeber them being said to be dead. Might have extrapolated from this "And Fen'Harel sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People." in the codex about Fen'Harel.