126 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Elves were always jerks, when my city elf warden went to help the dalish, he got **** for abandoning the traditions of the elves in between the elves asking for help with the werewolves and that elf from Awakening was a ****, I think she had a comment basically saying how it was amazing that humans were able to grow a certain type of tree and chewed me out when I was like 'you would have made a good keeper' no wonder her sister chose to stay with the Architect and awakened darkspawn >.>

[whykikyouwhy]

To be fair, I think the jerk-potential is evident within all of the DA peoples and classes (which is kind of refreshing, actually - gives everything a hearty sense of realism).

With the elves though, I think we get to see a fractured kinship. For the most part, they possess a strong sense of community, but it's viewed under a certain filter, with specific expectations of what it takes to be a "good" elf. Those that work outside of that scope, who seemingly eschew the traditions and ways that they feel are being chipped away, they tend to be antagonistic towards. (From what I can remember)

But, as I said, the jerk-ness abounds. Which can allow a person to pause and see things from both sides, I suppose.

[Sepewrath]

They said they lost their Halla and I would definitely agree that what Merrill did was dumb. Merethari not telling the clan is obvious, as they would have tried to stop her and/or went right off to kill Merrill, so that she would have no reason to go through with it. And they attack Hawke because their pissed off obviously, And they were always the biggest jerkasses in Thedas, according to the rest of the world, they showed a Grey Warden respect, in particular, one that they needed. Did you forget that group that attacks you after you finish the Dalish section in Origins, even if you solve the situation peacefully and save their clan?

Hawke was random human A, who was bringing Merrill, there, someone who had caused them trouble, of course their going to be a jerk to them. Also even if that one clan was nice, that doesn't mean every Dalish clan will be nice, did you also forget how the Dalish Origins start, with the opportunity to kill two humans just for being around? There was nothing wrong with the execution.

[IanPolaris]

Sepewrath,

Actually they (the Dalish) don't attack you. A group of Dalish radicals led by a grieving widow do (and you CAN talk her down) without the knowledge or sanction of the keeper.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

The two random humans in the Dalish Origin (if spared) try to rally other humans into attacking the Dalish clan, which is why the Keeper decides to move the clan so suddenly.

Given what Hawke has done for Marethari's clan - killing darkspawn at an area they hunted at, killing templars who came to take Feynriel, dealing with an ancient creature of elven myth and returning items from fallen Dalish clan mates, not killing Zevran after getting through all the traps that were placed and dealing with the Antivan Crows - I would have thought the clan would give Hawke more credit.

For those who think all Dalish are the same, Merrill and Ariane showed us otherwise.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Honestly, with the exception of Merrill, Lanaya, Ariane, Athras and maybe Velenna, the Dalish are largely jerks to begin with, and have always been so. Maybe it's just the fact that my headcanon!Warden was a City Elf, but I've never really liked the Dalish as a culture; always arrogant, always acting self-righteous and elfier-than-thou, and always ****ing about their lost culture and history. The latter is made even worse when you consider that those who actively try to improve the lot of the Dalish (Merrill through her attempts to recreate the Eluvian, and Velenna by trying to fight back against their oppressors) are rendered pariahs and scorned.

There's a fanfic called, "Thorns" (which you can find here: http://www.fanfictio...559674/1/Thorns), that while it's not perfect and presents much more of an anti-heroic and ruthless Warden than I prefer, does summarize my attitude towards the Dalish near-perfectly.

"They were different than the elves of the Alienage. Kallian wouldn't hesitate to admit that the weakest among the Dalish were still vastly stronger than the best the Alienage could offer. Considering their reputation for pride and defiance, it was easy to see why so many young elves fled the Alienages to seek a better life within the forest.
Kallian had even considered doing that at one point. It was just after her mother had died, and she had been sick with grief and anger. Even now, she remembered the disgust she had felt when all of her friends and family had simply accepted the murder of one of their own as an unavoidable fact of life. Were it not for the fact that leaving would have meant deserting her father, Kallian would probably be living like this right now.
The idea did not hold as much appeal for her as it had when she was younger. Growing up in an Alienage had given her a great deal of perspective when it came to hardship. Her father had spent years working long hours at the docks just so that he could put food on the table. On his few days off, he would join Elder Valerian and some of the other adults at the weekly assemblies held in Denerim's main square. There, they would spend hours attempting to present legislation that would improve the quality of life for the city's elves. Though their progress was painfully slow and often thankless, they kept at it until a few minor concessions were allowed by the city officials just to shut them up.
That was what strength was in her eyes. It was dedicating yourself to something that seemed impossible because it could help people. Strength certainly wasn't running away to hide in a forest and pretend like the world's problems didn't exist. The Dalish may be living better than the Alienage elves, but their so-called defiance wasn't helping anybody but themselves. What was worse, they actually thought they were better than the city elves because of all their nonsense about elven tradition.
If she had to choose, Kallian would say that was the thing she truly disliked about these elves. Speaking a few words of Ancient Elvish and painting lines on their face did not entitle a people to be such colossal pricks. They were a haughty group of insular blowhards who congratulated themselves on their meaningless posturing. But all the harsh words and puffed-up chests in the world wouldn't save them if the shems ever decided to burn this spooky-ass forest to the ground."

[Urzon]

Wow, necro thread....

But getting repeatly screwed over by the world would make people just a wee bit bitter. First the Tevinter destorys their homeland, and then the Chantry destorys their second one. After all that, they keep having to move place to place to keep away from the shems. Not to mention the templar seem to have a habit of going after their keepers if they stay in one place too long. Why they didn't go after Marethari is anyone's guess.

[The Xand]

Tbh the worst thing about the Dalish in DA 2 was their silly Northern Irish accents. They should all have been given Welsh accents like Merril.

Those baby aravel things look **** too.

Modifié par The Xand, 09 septembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Addai]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I'm going with pretty much everything Ethereal said...I reckon you guys might be overreacting a bit and just trying to find more ways to hate the game and hate it for changing things.

There are plenty of reasons, to be sure.  It comes down to the fact that if you are going to make radical changes in an established, well-loved game, you had better do it well.  They didn't.  Backlash is deserved.

As for the Dalish, they're epically stupid in DA2, but no more epically stupid than anyone else in Kirkwall.  Anders needed a much bigger bomb.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...
There are plenty of reasons, to be sure.  It comes down to the fact that if you are going to make radical changes in an established, well-loved game, you had better do it well.  They didn't.  Backlash is deserved.

As for the Dalish, they're epically stupid in DA2, but no more epically stupid than anyone else in Kirkwall.  Anders needed a much bigger bomb.

100% agreement here.

[Rifneno]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

Honestly, with the exception of Merrill, Lanaya, Ariane, Athras and maybe Velenna, the Dalish are largely jerks to begin with, and have always been so.

WHAT.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

Honestly, with the exception of Merrill, Lanaya, Ariane, Athras and maybe Velenna, the Dalish are largely jerks to begin with, and have always been so.

WHAT.

I'd say Velanna fits in to that group only if you max out her approval and do her quests. She starts to become less harsh and jerkish and more of an actual person that one could like.

Honestly, Velanna is just a mix of Sten and Morrigan.

I'd also add Marethari, Ilen, Paivel, Varathorn, and Gheyna to the list.

Also, I demand a Velannamance in DA3! And a Nathanielmance for the people who want it. And if you don't romance either, Nathaniel and Velanna start a relationship.

EDIT: The **** was I on that I added that harpy to the list?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[dragonflight288]

Well, if you listen to Velanna's banter with Nathanial, she actually seems a lot nicer and I personally think she develops a crush on a shem.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Velanna struck me as kind Morrigan except with murderous racism instead of charm. She's one of the few companions I never saw fit to take with me.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, if you listen to Velanna's banter with Nathanial, she actually seems a lot nicer and I personally think she develops a crush on a shem.

Yea that's actually why I suggested the Nathaniel-Velanna romance. Their banter indicated mutual attraction, but nothing more than that, so I'd like to see Bioware take it a step further.

[dragonflight288]

Yea that's actually why I suggested the Nathaniel-Velanna romance. Their banter indicated mutual attraction, but nothing more than that, so I'd like to see Bioware take it a step further.

Good idea. Heck, why not even have a romanceable character who isn't in the party? We could run into Nathanial and Velanna often and the Protagonist could have something develop as the story progresses?

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

Honestly, with the exception of Merrill, Lanaya, Ariane, Athras and maybe Velenna, the Dalish are largely jerks to begin with, and have always been so.

WHAT.

I'd say Velanna fits in to that group only if you max out her approval and do her quests. She starts to become less harsh and jerkish and more of an actual person that one could like.

Honestly, Velanna is just a mix of Sten and Morrigan.

I'd also add Marethari, Ilen, Paivel, Varathorn, and Gheyna to the list.

Also, I demand a Velannamance in DA3! And a Nathanielmance for the people who want it. And if you don't romance either, Nathaniel and Velanna start a relationship.

Velanna was undoubtedly a supreme epic **** when you first recruit her.  She was already guilty of butchering every human she found because she didn't check her damned facts.  However, as I got to know her better in Awakenings, I came to feel for her.  She's a person in a really, really bad place.

With that said, I always lol'd when Nathaniel trolled her like a pro

[jamesp81]

As for the Dalish, yes, they are complete jerkasses. The rub me wrong in every way. They strike me as rather uncivilized. They can't even show a shem, who has offered them no threat or insult, what amounts to a shred of common damned decency. The merchant that ****es you out thinking you can retrieve ironbark is someone I long to HawkePunch in the face.

[TheJediSaint]

The Dailish were typical snooty fantasy elves in DAO, and is DA2 they were...typical snooty fantasy elves.

Now despite that, I do sympathize with the plight of the elves in general. There backstory is one of extreme hardship and tragedy, especially for city elves.

However, it is pretty clear to me that the Dalish were as capable of being complete jerks as everyone else in Thedas. It's just their particular brand of jerkiness was flavored by them being, well...snooty fantasy elves.

I don't think that this is a case of Bioware being unfair to elves the same way certain people accuse them of being unfair to mages. With notable exceptions, everybody in Thedas was potrayd in a less than stellar fashion. In other words, Bioware does not play favorites.

[UltiPup]

I have a great fondness for the Dalish and see nothing wrong in their views. The elves have suffered a lot. Losing your history, your culture, what defines you as a race is utterly gone. I can't blame them for holding a grudge when the crime is unspeakable. And grudges can run deep, far down the bloodline. It isn't like the tension has stopped between humans and elves. Neither side wants to forgive and forget.

The scars are damn well deep and will never heal if they are still being inflicted. The alienages are trash. Humans who let elves in their cities treat them terribly. If the elves who fled into human cities aren't treated fairly, how can you expect the Dalish to reconsider their harsh views on shems?

[Satyricon331]

UltiPup wrote...
I have a great fondness for the Dalish and see nothing wrong in their views. The elves have suffered a lot. Losing your history, your culture, what defines you as a race is utterly gone. I can't blame them for holding a grudge when the crime is unspeakable. And grudges can run deep, far down the bloodline. It isn't like the tension has stopped between humans and elves. Neither side wants to forgive and forget.

The scars are damn well deep and will never heal if they are still being inflicted. The alienages are trash. Humans who let elves in their cities treat them terribly. If the elves who fled into human cities aren't treated fairly, how can you expect the Dalish to reconsider their harsh views on shems?

Yeah, I agree; I think there's a certain lack of empathy for minority perspectives that comes into play though.  I'll add to your argument that in DAO, Ilen mentions his father fought the Clayne tribes when the Dalish took the forest, and since King Calenhad united the Claynes to form Ferelden in 5:42 Exalted (according to King Calenhad's codex entry), the most recently that fighting could have taken place would have been approximately 388 years before the present (if we're about 30 years into the Dragon Age).  Which means that the fall of the Dales, in the Glory Age, would have happened likely in Ilen's grandfather's or greatgrandfather's time, if his father was young during the Clayne battle (a bit like WW2 for us).  If he was older (less likely imo), and Ilen was young then, then Ilen's father could have been alive during the fall of the Dales.  So either way the Exalted March against the Dales would seem to be something that would be fairly fresh in the Dalish mind, at least if you give credence to Ilen's account in DAO.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The thing about Velanna was that she wasn't precisely tricked into murdering specific humans by the darkspawn. The disciple made her think that the humans had kidnapped her sister and killed her clan but she didn't even punish simply who she thought were the guilty party. She attacked and murdered any humans she saw. Even if she'd been right about who she thought was responsible, she still murdered many innocent people. My first main warden tended to view her more as a straight up villain then a potential ally. My dalish warden tended to think the same, but helped her search for her sister in the cave then told her to leave.

[The Xand]

Satyricon331 wrote...



Yeah, I agree; I think there's a certain lack of empathy for minority perspectives that comes into play though.  I'll add to your argument that in DAO, Ilen mentions his father fought the Clayne tribes when the Dalish took the forest, and since King Calenhad united the Claynes to form Ferelden in 5:42 Exalted (according to King Calenhad's codex entry), the most recently that fighting could have taken place would have been approximately 388 years before the present (if we're about 30 years into the Dragon Age).  Which means that the fall of the Dales, in the Glory Age, would have happened likely in Ilen's grandfather's or greatgrandfather's time, if his father was young during the Clayne battle (a bit like WW2 for us).  If he was older (less likely imo), and Ilen was young then, then Ilen's father could have been alive during the fall of the Dales.  So either way the Exalted March against the Dales would seem to be something that would be fairly fresh in the Dalish mind, at least if you give credence to Ilen's account in DAO.

That's quite interesting actually, that would mean that there is solid evidence of the elves actually living for much longer than humans.

The elves were no less dickish than they were in DA:O, though it's understandable they might be a little less than friendly with humans I think one day Bioware will go into their history at some point and show that they aren't quite so innocent as they make themselves out to be.

Modifié par The Xand, 10 septembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[dragonflight288]

The Chantry also claims to be innocent, that they were responding to the sacking of a city. They claimed there were reports and or rumors of the Dalish performing human sacrifices. The Chantry isn't going to say they felt the Dalish were heathens so they attacked them.

I strongly suspect both sides have their dirty laundry and don't want it out in the open.

[The Xand]

Aye but even though it's the Chantry's point of view that we generally hear about we still know enough that makes the Chantry seem like the bigger dicks, seemingly stripping the Elves of their lands and sovereignty and dealing harshly with them because of their faith. Seems to me like the elves still have some grand reveals to show just why they are in the situation they are now, and just how exactly they lost Arlathan and their empire and alienated everyone, including the dwarves who it was strongly hinted at they were strongly allied with because of the amount of dwarven ruins with elven architecture and the like.