126 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I personally think they gave us plenty. Elves used to be immortal, but after contact with the Shemlen (quicklings in the elven tongue), they started to age and die of things beyond battle.

They intentionally shut themselves out from humans, and in their superior arrogance that anything not elven is inferior, they dismissed humans almost entirely.

[UltiPup]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Chantry also claims to be innocent, that they were responding to the sacking of a city. They claimed there were reports and or rumors of the Dalish performing human sacrifices. The Chantry isn't going to say they felt the Dalish were heathens so they attacked them.

I strongly suspect both sides have their dirty laundry and don't want it out in the open.

Let's not be quick to believe the Chantry. Such a big and powerful organization wouldn't want to be seen tyrannical. A few forced rumors here and there about the elves and they make their own excuse to go about and slaughter. Perhaps the elves had something they wanted, but refused to give up to the shems. Chantry goes self rightous and calls an Exalted March. It wouldn't be the first time religion was used as an excuse for bloodshed.

[TEWR]

UltiPup wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Chantry also claims to be innocent, that they were responding to the sacking of a city. They claimed there were reports and or rumors of the Dalish performing human sacrifices. The Chantry isn't going to say they felt the Dalish were heathens so they attacked them.

I strongly suspect both sides have their dirty laundry and don't want it out in the open.

Let's not be quick to believe the Chantry. Such a big and powerful organization wouldn't want to be seen tyrannical. A few forced rumors here and there about the elves and they make their own excuse to go about and slaughter. Perhaps the elves had something they wanted, but refused to give up to the shems. Chantry goes self rightous and calls an Exalted March. It wouldn't be the first time religion was used as an excuse for bloodshed.

It's my belief that Orlais wanted the fertile land of the Dales and used the Chantry and the Templars to take over the Dales. They did just lose a lot of land to the Blight of that time period.

[The Xand]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh, I personally think they gave us plenty. Elves used to be immortal, but after contact with the Shemlen (quicklings in the elven tongue), they started to age and die of things beyond battle.

They intentionally shut themselves out from humans, and in their superior arrogance that anything not elven is inferior, they dismissed humans almost entirely.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the elves were naturally immortal and that they only lost that ability through contact with humans though. I think it's more likely that they used some sort of blood magic or the Eluvians to unnaturally extend their lives and with the destruction of Arlathan lost that ability. The utter destruction of Arlathan in itself seems somewhat suspect too, with even the elves not knowing what truly happened to it and the Tevinters seemingly just as bemused about it's end fate.

[TEWR]

The Xand wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh, I personally think they gave us plenty. Elves used to be immortal, but after contact with the Shemlen (quicklings in the elven tongue), they started to age and die of things beyond battle.

They intentionally shut themselves out from humans, and in their superior arrogance that anything not elven is inferior, they dismissed humans almost entirely.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the elves were naturally immortal and that they only lost that ability through contact with humans though. I think it's more likely that they used some sort of blood magic or the Eluvians to unnaturally extend their lives and with the destruction of Arlathan lost that ability. The utter destruction of Arlathan in itself seems somewhat suspect too, with even the elves not knowing what truly happened to it and the Tevinters seemingly just as bemused about it's end fate.

I don't buy into the natural immortality completely either, though I do acknowledge it as indeed possible. If blood magic can in fact extend the lifespan of someone who isn't afflicted with the Taint (Avernus' life was extended with blood magic, but that could be due to the fact that he's also tainted and that they're linked together), then they probably used that. If the elves were all mages like Merrill says, then it's even more likely that blood magic was the reason why they're immortal.

There are also various ruins that have human architecture and elven artifacts, and the Arcane Warrior in the Brecilian Ruins says that the elves and humans lived together.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[dragonflight288]

True. I suppose I should have mentioned that most Dalish elves feel superior to humans anyway because of the stories they pass down to one another about Arlathan, and that's why they feel they have plenty of reason to be arrogant.

Or at least...that's what I meant. Probably wasn't stated well.

[Shadow Fox]

Does anyone besides me get a sense of vindication when playing a City Elf and siding with the werewolves in Origins?*yes I hate the Dalish*

[dragonflight288]

The dalish do make it easy to dislike them. Even if you're a Grey Warden.

[jamesp81]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Does anyone besides me get a sense of vindication when playing a City Elf and siding with the werewolves in Origins?*yes I hate the Dalish*

What annoys me the most about the Dalish is how they claim to be the protectors of all things elven, but they openly look down on city-born elves.  The city elves have some very real, very serious grievances with the way they are treated in human cities and are subject to grave injustice that is happening right now.  Despite this, the city elves aren't half as whiny and ****y as the Dalish, and they have damned good reason to be.

I sometimes get the idea that the Dalish are, in a way, spoiled children.  They certainly don't have an easy life, but they like to parade the victimhood card day in and day out.  The city-born really are victimized every day, and in ways far worse than what usually happens to the Dalish.

This is why when the elves in Act 2 converted to the Qun, I told the Arishok that I would've done the same, much to Aveline's great displeasure.  The law didn't protect those elves, they have the right to protect themselves.

[Satyricon331]

I still think the reasons people have for disliking the Dalish are just bizarre.  On the information we have, the humans have a past filled with brutal slavery and human sacrifice, and continue today with theocracy, institutionalized bigotry and mass murder, and crusades.  The dwarves have a cruel caste system that disenfranchises most of their population.  The kossith punish critical thinking and demand people surrender their mental integrity.  And people dislike the Dalish for "playing the victim card" (whom are the asking for benefits?) and for researching and preserving their more advanced past that the humans to this day are trying to stamp out for apostacy?

I might have agreed their attitude towards City Elves was a problem if it were as bad as people are saying, and if they felt that way knowing all we do about CEs.  But when the DEs say things like "we're the last of the Elvehan," they're saying they're the last of the "place of our people," not the last true elves or something, contra an earlier poster.  And in the Dalish origin, the conversation with Pol and the DE whose name I'm forgetting, you see that both sets actually know little about each other (they even remark on this point).  If you read the codex entry on CEs you get as a DE, you see the DEs just don't understand why the CEs choose to stay.  There's a remarkable absence of hatred towards the CEs.  So no, their attitude is not ideal, but it's hardly enough to condemn the DEs.

I think the problem most people (not all) who dislike DEs have is really just an ax to grind against fantasy elves in general.  Or maybe it's not fantasy elves, but rather some Native American tribes, since there are such striking similarities in some respects - the point is that it's not against the Dalish per se.  If the reasons people gave for disliking the Dalish were their real reasons, then you'd see far more hate on the other races, but you don't. 

[UltiPup]

The Dalish are a proud people. VERY proud. So when some of their kin succumb to the race that was responsible for their near destruction of all of their history, they felt betrayed. For an elf to run to shem cities instead of being amongst their own, it is the biggest slap in the face that one of their own can give. So, would they give city elves much respect? Not likely, but not all of the Dalish spit in their kin's faces. We know Pol was a city born elf and a Dalish tribe accepted him. So, not all tribes are the same.

[IanPolaris]

The biggest issue I have with the Dalish is they act morally and culturally superior to everyone else when in honestly they really aren't. Arrogance wears thin esp unwarrented arrogance.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The biggest issue I have with the Dalish is they act morally and culturally superior to everyone else when in honestly they really aren't. Arrogance wears thin esp unwarrented arrogance.

-Polaris

I kinda agree. On one hand, they are entitled to how they act for certain areas. On the other hand, they take that to levels they shouldn't. A human offers to help their hunters and their response is "Oh so you think our Dalish Hunters are so pathetic and weak that they need to be rescued by YOU?!"

As for the disdain they seem to have towards city elves, it's both warranted and unwarranted. The city elves live harsher lives than the Dalish, but the Dalish don't really bother to know this. Lanaya didn't even know, and she was a city elf.

Still, the city elves did forsake their culture, and didn't bother to really remember what little they originally held onto.
Elves plant these trees to remind themselves of who they once were. And then they pee on it. Charming symbolism, really. --- Zevran Arainai

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mostly the old ways are gone. Each generation forgets a little more of the old tongue, a little more of the traditions. And the few things we keep become simple habits, the meaning long since faded.

So it is with the vhenadahl, the tree of the people. Every alienage has one, I'm told. Or they used to. When I was a little girl, my mother told me the tree was a symbol of Arlathan, but not even she knew more. Keeping the vhenadahl is just a habit, now. Many cities have let theirs wither and die, then chopped them up for firewood. No great loss.

--Sarethia, hahren of the Highever Alienage.


That said, we've only seen two clans, and both have welcomed City Elves. Pol even struggles with believing in the Creators over Andraste and the Maker, but they treat him as one of their own.

What I really hate about the Dalish only pertains to what happened in DAII. The unwarranted hatred and fear of Merrill and everything she's doing, considering she's the only one doing what the Dalish say is their goal.

Putting my love of Merrill aside, I can understand the Dalish feeling superior to the City Elves in that they have more freedom than the City Elves (with some hunters even preferring the nomadic lifestyle), but I think they take that superiority to unnecessary heights.

[Maconbar]

How many cultural groups don't view their way of life and values as superior?

[DPSSOC]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I think the problem most people (not all) who dislike DEs have is really just an ax to grind against fantasy elves in general.

 

I think it's more that the Dalish behave like Traditional High Elves (massive superiority complex) but there's no basis for it in reality.  Traditional High Elves live longer (like centuries longer), know more, and possess marvels the other races couldn't hope to duplicate.  The Dalish get years tops, know nothing, and their one grand miracle are the aravels.  Even look at the history of the Dalish; the Elves of Arlathan started to wither and die simply from being in contact with humans, they were conquered and enslaved by humans, they only gained freedom from said slavery because of a human, after setting up a new home they were again conquered and enslaved by humans, they were driven to be nomads by humans, and at present a clan of Dalish Elves has to flee the wrath of a small human village.  I'm not saying humans are better than the Dalish, but the Dalish sense of superiority rings hollow when every encounter they've had with humans has gone badly for them.

That's my problem with the Dalish, completely unfounded sense of superiority.  Perfect example is at Sundermount a Dalish (if you click or pass by I can't remember) says something to the effect of, "Watch yourself shem, you have no idea how many Dalish arrows are trained on you."  Considering me and my pals have slaughtered darkspawn, demons, dragons, Templars, Mages, undead, abominations, and Maker knows what else I hope you'll forgive me for not shaking in my blood stained boots.

There are tons of interactions like this, where Dalish act tough and superior when you know (even without foreknowledge of Act 3) that you and your 3 pals could butcher every last one of them without breaking a sweat.

[Addai]

jamesp81 wrote...
What annoys me the most about the Dalish is how they claim to be the protectors of all things elven, but they openly look down on city-born elves.  The city elves have some very real, very serious grievances with the way they are treated in human cities and are subject to grave injustice that is happening right now.  Despite this, the city elves aren't half as whiny and ****y as the Dalish, and they have damned good reason to be.

And in their view, the city elves have brought it on themselves by consenting to live in ghettos rather than risk freedom.  However, I disagree that the city elves complain less.  You haven't played the city elf origin in DAO, I take it.

[Addai]

DPSSOC wrote...
There are tons of interactions like this, where Dalish act tough and superior when you know (even without foreknowledge of Act 3) that you and your 3 pals could butcher every last one of them without breaking a sweat.

The PC never loses.  Not a good comparison.

Every group has a superiority complex about itself.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[DPSSOC]

Addai67 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
There are tons of interactions like this, where Dalish act tough and superior when you know (even without foreknowledge of Act 3) that you and your 3 pals could butcher every last one of them without breaking a sweat.

The PC never loses.  Not a good comparison.

Fair point.  However given that over the course of their history humans have decimated their homeland not once but twice, picking fights with them would seem to be a bad idea.

Addai67 wrote...
Every group has a superiority complex about itself.

Mine doesn't, that's what makes us better than everyone else.

Edit: [Stupid Touch Pad}
Yes every group has a superiority complex but there's normally some aspect of reality they can point to as a basis (doesn't make them right or keep people from arguing about it but it is an actual thing).  Adeptness in a particular field, physical characteristics, etc.  I can't find anything for the Dalish.  Everything is past tense; we used to be immortal, we used to have amazing magics, we used to have an empire spanning all of Thedas.

So the concensus seems to be that the Dalish used to be awesome, and that's what makes them better than everyone else.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[Satyricon331]

DPSSOC wrote...
I think it's more that the Dalish behave like Traditional High Elves (massive superiority complex) but there's no basis for it in reality.  Traditional High Elves live longer (like centuries longer), know more, and possess marvels the other races couldn't hope to duplicate.  The Dalish get years tops, know nothing, and their one grand miracle are the aravels.  Even look at the history of the Dalish; the Elves of Arlathan started to wither and die simply from being in contact with humans, they were conquered and enslaved by humans, they only gained freedom from said slavery because of a human, after setting up a new home they were again conquered and enslaved by humans, they were driven to be nomads by humans, and at present a clan of Dalish Elves has to flee the wrath of a small human village.  I'm not saying humans are better than the Dalish, but the Dalish sense of superiority rings hollow when every encounter they've had with humans has gone badly for them.

That's my problem with the Dalish, completely unfounded sense of superiority.  Perfect example is at Sundermount a Dalish (if you click or pass by I can't remember) says something to the effect of, "Watch yourself shem, you have no idea how many Dalish arrows are trained on you."  Considering me and my pals have slaughtered darkspawn, demons, dragons, Templars, Mages, undead, abominations, and Maker knows what else I hope you'll forgive me for not shaking in my blood stained boots.

There are tons of interactions like this, where Dalish act tough and superior when you know (even without foreknowledge of Act 3) that you and your 3 pals could butcher every last one of them without breaking a sweat.

As I discussed in more detail earlier in the thread, Ilen in the DAO Dalish origin mentions his father fought the Clayne tribes, and if you give credence to the account then it means his father lived centuries ago.  The only serious reason I can think of not to give it credence is because it's a rather remarkable fact for there to be such little mention of it in the rest of the games, so it might be something Bioware intends to retcon at some point.  At the moment though it seems to stand.

And I think this account of a Dalish "superiority complex" is completely exaggerated (it's not non-existent, but exaggerated).  Consider your evidence; for one thing, you're basically citing the protagonist's plot armor to say the Dalish overestimate their own lethality (or at least, that's the best sense I can make of it?).  Even ignoring that problem however, how is that remark evidence of a superiority complex at all?  It sounds more like hostility to a human to me.  Also consider -

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
On the other hand, they take that to levels they shouldn't. A human offers to help their hunters and their response is "Oh so you think our Dalish Hunters are so pathetic and weak that they need to be rescued by YOU?!"

I mean, that's terrible evidence of "arrogance" or "a superiority complex."  It sounds more like an assumption that humans are arrogant and condescending.  Many of them actually are; wasn't it the seemingly friendly Genitivi who thinks the world is for humans to dominate?  Don't most humans subscribe to the Chantry's dominionism?  It seems to me that most humans think elves should be in alienages or just be servants, but admittedly the games only provide anecdotal evidence.

As for the idea that "every encounter they've had with humans has gone badly for them," for one thing, it's just false; the Dalish annexed the forests from the Clayne.  More to the point, I don't know of any point where the Dalish claimed to be militarily superior overall to the humans.  Their focus is survival, which is why they wander, as you learn in the DE origin (and probably the codex).  Marethari in the DE origin says something like, iirc, she would rather move the tribe than fight the village in order to preserve Dalish numbers, which is an entirely sensible reason.  What would it accomplish for them to attack this human village you say they "flee" from?

And again, for all this irritation people have for the Dalish, they keep giving reasons that would suggest they should have much greater irritation towards the dwarves, the humans, and the Qunari, but I don't see it, except to the Chantry.

edit: mai grammurz beez awwsum

Modifié par Satyricon331, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[jamesp81]

I'm going to echo the unwarranted arrogance comment. They've got that in spades.

Not that I really like dwarves and humans all that much, but the Dalish exhibit just the right combination of smug superiority with nothing to back it up that rubs me just the wrong way.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That said, we've only seen two clans, and both have welcomed City Elves. Pol even struggles with believing in the Creators over Andraste and the Maker, but they treat him as one of their own.

They welcome City Elves who are prepared to throw away their culture and faith for a life of relative safety and comfort.

[AloraKast]

Honestly, I have NO idea what was behind the totally bizzare and radical changes to the Dalish from DA:O to DA2.

As someone whose first experience with the world of Dragon Age was as a Dalish Warden (which I totally fell in love with), the changes stand out as a very, VERY sore thumb. Everything from the way they look (beyond scrawny and not appealling in ANY sense of the word - let's not forget the no shoes thing) to the way they behave and even the way they are voiced - the strange and rather un-Dalish like behaviour comes through in that aspect as well. The surroundings (i.e. the aravels) and how they are presented has already been mentioned and yes it's vastly different... compare the atmosphere of the very same Dalish clan in DA:O to that in DA2 - vastly changed, but what's even more puzzling is that I for one cannot see the natural progression from point A to point B, it doesn't make sense - it's almost like it's different simply for difference sake and not for any other logical or understandable reason. As for the Welsh accents... I do not mind the accents in general, but again, considering it's supposed to be the VERY same clan as my clan from DA:O, yes, I find myself quite puzzled as to why all of a sudden my clanmates adopted a Welsh accent. Again, why? What's the reasoning behind it? Where's the natual progression from how they were and behaved in DA:O to how they are now presented in DA2? Other than merely for change's sake that is.

Eh, my total displeasure (that's a good word, methinks) with the direction (and no, I do not merely mean the art direction, although that IS one major part of it, yes) the Dalish were taken in DA2 is well documented on these forums. I've come to view DA2 in general as an alternate universe version of the world of Dragon Age; familiar enough yet in certain places VERY different. It's how I cope, ok?

[Wulfram]

[pedant]Apart from Merrill, they haven't got Welsh accents, they've got Irish accents.[/pedant]

[The Xand]

jamesp81 wrote...

I'm going to echo the unwarranted arrogance comment. They've got that in spades.

Not that I really like dwarves and humans all that much, but the Dalish exhibit just the right combination of smug superiority with nothing to back it up that rubs me just the wrong way.

Would you really have elves any other way?

Wulfram wrote...

[pedant]Apart from Merrill, they haven't got Welsh accents, they've got Irish accents.[/pedant]

Northern Irish if we're going to be a little more specific.

@Alorakast: I actually appreciate that Bioware tried to move away from elves being "humans with pointy ears", but the shift in accents was a weird one.

Modifié par The Xand, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[naledgeborn]

I like playing a smug Dalish, because - well you can back it up. Dealing with them otherwise makes me want to punch their so called warriors in the nose.