408 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

And again we reach this inevitable point where it is insisted that everyone is just waiting to dominate you and as such you have to dominate others

They are. What do you think the Council is?

Have you paid attention at all to Council history?

 Once again, differing interpretations of Council actions; you interpret them as openly dominating or dominating under the guise of co-operation, I have no problem with interpreting at least some of those in the Council project as believing in co-operative actions and out of a sincere belief in ways to maintain a balanced and peaceful united galaxy

 But again, you would claim that actions or claims by Council members / races which suggest co-operative wants are secretly attempts to (or excuses for their attempts to) dominate. An unfalsifiable claim..

[MrFob]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

You might judge the species' as having equal individual value, and recognise that as some other species' have higher populations then allowing them to die would be a greater loss of life (which you judge to have equivalent value)

 No self hate involved

You could do that, but you'd be delusional and misguided. You need to prioritize the survival of your own people because nobody else will. Somebody needs to be willing to prioritize humans or humans will get stomped flat. You also have to consider which species can most easily recover. That puts the asari and vorcha at the bottom of your list. Followed by the salarians and turians who have massive populations spread across multiple colonies.

Krogan, humans, and quarians (and maybe volus) aren't so widespread.

1. I agree, as a human you'll have to prioritise humans. However, that does not mean (as you suggested) that you should deliberately sacrifice the other species without the ultimate need.
2. As far as recovery goes, you assume the Asari, if (and I say IF, there are many variables in that) would somehow be completely disadvantageous for humanity. I don't think we can assume that. An Asari nation recovering, that works together with the humans (and the turians, the Salarians, etc.) like before the war can be beneficial to all sides. You want to become at least an accessory to genocide because of your assumptions
3. I agree with Toby on this one. For me the value of life in general ranks higher than the value of a species in terms of its usefulness or annoyance for humanity, especially if all these evaluations are highly speculative. Of course, that is an ethical and very abstract judgement and I'd not expect everyone to have the same POV on this. However it would be nice if people could build a consesus on that much.

[Wereparrot]

Mesina2 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

That might be the worst analogy I have ever heard in my entire life.

You should explain why.

Majority of European population was untouched, while most of France wasn't bombed.


And EU is still behind USA and China, especially in military power.

Still? That's a bit arrogant. Still from when? Your statement is more than half a century late and the wrong way round. Show some respect for the British, French and Spanish Empires please.

[TobyHasEyes]

Not to derail the topic, but I assume Mesina2 was referring to national wealth and military might

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 20 août 2011 - 02:47 .

[MrFob]

The analogy doesn't work very well anyway because the fact that post WW2, the US and western Europe (including western Germany) both benefited from working together in rebuilding (help and goods for Europe, markets and strategic allies for the US). So it could as well be used as an analogy for the contrary argument.
Anyway, this is dipping very much into RL politics already so we should probably stop that line

[BatmanPWNS]

Kill the Turians and Asari. Only the Salarians deserve to live!

[TobyHasEyes]

Luc0s wrote...

Yeah, lets get back on topic. I believe the topic was how some people are stupid not to put their own species on the top of their priority list.

 The topic roughly was which species' do you save, with some discussion going on about what reasons you might have for prioritising one over another

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

The important thing to remember is that a galaxy without humans is not a galaxy worth saving. That puts everything else in perspective.

....huh?...cos we special?...<_<

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 The topic roughly was which species' do you save, with some discussion going on about what reasons you might have for prioritising one over another

Then I will repeat my belief that if your goal is to preserve as many species as possible then you need to prioritize those with the smallest populations and lowest rates of growth.

Towards that end quarians, drell, and krogan need the most consideration as they each have only 1 world to their name (or none in the quarians' case). Meaning that the Reapers devestating that single world would nearly annihilate the entire species. (you might throw yagh in here too)

Next is humans who have almost their entire species confined to a single world with their numerous colonies being much smaller.

After that would possibly be the volus who require a very exotic environment to thrive compared to most other species.

The elcor, asari, salarians, and turians don't require nearly as much consideration because they have massive populations spread out over numerous worlds. They could lose 10 or even 20 billion individuals and still maintain a very healthy breeding population and stable economy. The batarians might fall into this slot as well.

 You are addressing the subtely different question that could be phrased "which species' will need the most help from humanity?"; a fair topic which I think you address fairly ( as certainly the larger races can take the bigger hits) but not exactly what the OP was aiming at I think

 I can accept my summary could have used more clarification, the OP put the issue as 

 "You cannot save all species,  who will you help?"

 So I suppose I interpret the thread as asking if not all can survive, but the choice of which do is up to you, which would you choose. Somewhat vague, but worth the while

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 20 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

You might judge the species' as having equal individual value, and recognise that as some other species' have higher populations then allowing them to die would be a greater loss of life (which you judge to have equivalent value)

 No self hate involved

You could do that, but you'd be delusional and misguided. You need to prioritize the survival of your own people because nobody else will. Somebody needs to be willing to prioritize humans or humans will get stomped flat. You also have to consider which species can most easily recover. That puts the asari and vorcha at the bottom of your list. Followed by the salarians and turians who have massive populations spread across multiple colonies.

Krogan, humans, and quarians (and maybe volus) aren't so widespread.

You're inventing a need. It's not necessarily a necessity that someone has to prioritize human survival.

[Iron Star]

First of all, I'll save humanity, for obvious reasons. Even if we can be real douches at times doesn't mean we don't deserve to live.
Second, I WILL save the rachni, no matter what the cost . I love everything about them, their culture, language and from what I understand their different aproach to technology instead of mass relay/ reaper tech the citadel and terminus races use (after ME3 this may be quite valuable if the galaxy decide to evolve differently from what the reapers originally wanted us to).

I'll also try to save the Asari, Turians and Salarians. All of these have proven to be invaluable members of the galactic community and will certainly prove to be powerful allies against the reaper threat. Afterwards they'll continue to do what they've always done; Asari will guide the galaxy with peace, diplomacy and wisdom, Turians defend citadel space from the terminus and other forces, and Salarians develop our technology so we can reach new hights (the day might come when we can expand outside our galaxy, and it'll come quicker if we've got the salarians, no doubt.)

Also, alot of people hate on the volus since they're weak and have virtually no army, but that doesn't mean they're not valuable. Sure, against the reapers they might not do much of a difference, but afterwards they may be invaluable to keep our economy stable and running.

When it comes to the Quarian/Geth debate I'd side with the Geth. If I can save them both I might do it, but I see the geth as more important, against the reapers and beyond. Once they've completed their dyson sphere and are uploaded to it they'll ascend to a new level of intelligence and can solve every imaginable problem. Think of the possibilities!

I want to save the krogan, but since their culture's basically based on "My quad's bigger than yours! RAAAWR!" they'd first have to better themselves. Curing the genophage will probably make them stop the senseless infighting and unite them into a single nation, and from there we'll just have to see if they'll turn onto the right path or if we'll have to nuke them again. 

As for the Drell I simply like their looks, espacially if their females look like this: http://www.moddb.com...es/female-drell Also, they deserve a second chance, right?

Same as Krogan, Batarians must drop their whole caste and slavery system before I save them. However, they just might bring us a deciding factor against the reapers, the Leviathan of Dis: http://masseffect.wi...eviathan_of_Dis

As for the Hanar, Vorcha and Yagh I'll probably sacrifice them, even if I don't have to, they simply mean trouble.

Modifié par Get fired up, 20 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[Xilizhra]

Species or individuals or societies which cannot or willnot prioritize their own survival and propagation will be overcome by those who do. This is a fact.

I'm willing to accept this if it means a greater good for more people. And I do consider aliens people. If humanity must die to secure the galaxy's future, well, so be it. I'd do the same for any other single species.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 The topic roughly was which species' do you save, with some discussion going on about what reasons you might have for prioritising one over another

Then I will repeat my belief that if your goal is to preserve as many species as possible then you need to prioritize those with the smallest populations and lowest rates of growth.

Towards that end quarians, drell, and krogan need the most consideration as they each have only 1 world to their name (or none in the quarians' case). Meaning that the Reapers devestating that single world would nearly annihilate the entire species. (you might throw yagh in here too)

Next is humans who have almost their entire species confined to a single world with their numerous colonies being much smaller.

After that would possibly be the volus who require a very exotic environment to thrive compared to most other species.

The elcor, asari, salarians, and turians don't require nearly as much consideration because they have massive populations spread out over numerous worlds. They could lose 10 or even 20 billion individuals and still maintain a very healthy breeding population and stable economy. The batarians might fall into this slot as well.

^Agreed.  If the goal is to allow the greatest variety of species to survive after the Reaper Invasion, then the plan would be to "protect" those species that are closer to extinction, including ourselves.  Those species that can reproduce easily or quickly, or have a greater military force with which to protect themselves, hold the lowest priority.

I think the one thing that some have neglected to mention is that the first priority is to defeat the Reapers, however.  And it will come down to playing the actual game for most of us to be able to decide which races will be most helpful when it comes down to winning the War.

[Ruathrar]

I do not know who I will save until the time comes and I have a context on which to base my decisions. Things to consider:

Species Assets
Asari Ground Forces - Unknown number of Commandos and Justicars.
Asari Fleet - I assume they have a fleet of some kind.
Asari Expertise – Biotics.

Turian Ground Forces – Unknown number of highly disciplined troops.
Turian Fleet – Large number of warships manned by highly disciplined crews.
Turian Expertise – Warfare.

Quarian Ground Forces – Limited number of ground troops; weak immune systems.
Quarian Fleet – Large number of ships; largest single fleet in the galaxy.
Quarian Expertise – Hacking/neutralizing enemy technology; salvaging.

Geth Ground Forces – Unknown number of ground troops; can be uploaded to another mobile platform if current mobile platform is destroyed; Heretics were reportedly only 5% of the total Geth population.
Geth Fleet – Unknown number of ships.
Geth Expertise – Hacking/neutralizing enemy technology.
Geth Materiel – Geth have been mining asteroids for 300 years; may have stockpiled raw materials useful for the war effort.

Note: The Quarians and Geth make peace. The Quarians deposit their non-combatants on Rannoch. The Geth leave behind a defense force for the non-combatant Quarians with the bulk of their forces joining the fight.

Krogan Ground Forces – Limited number of ground troops; regeneration.
Krogan Fleet – Non-existent.
Krogan Expertise – Warfare.

Note: The Krogan probably will not survive, but they will go out as heroes. Wrex will drag the Krogan species to everlasting glory whether they want it or not.

Salarian Ground Forces – Unknown number of STG operatives.
Salarian Fleet – Unknown number of ships.
Salarian Expertise – Medical and technical.

Volus Ground Forces – Non-existent.
Volus Fleet – Unknown number of large trading vessels; good for moving war materiel.
Volus Expertise – Making money; wars cost money.

Elcor - ???

Batarians - ???

Drell - ???

Hanar - ???

Vorcha Ground Forces – Large number of cannon fodder.
Vorcha Fleet – Non-existent.
Vorcha Expertise – Cannon Fodder.

Rachni Ground Forces – Unknown numbers and capabilities.
Rachni Fleet – Unknown numbers and capabilities.
Rachni Expertise – Unknown.

Unaligned Groups Notes
Aria – Aria is not stupid and realizes her own survival depends on Shepard’s success. She forges the mercenary bands into a small army; providing ships for the assault fleet and ground troops.

FLEETS

Assault Fleet
The assault fleet is comprised of Asari, Turian, Human, Quarian, Geth, Salarian, and Mercenary warships.

Evacuation Fleet
The evacuation fleet’s core is comprised of Quarian ships that were used to house the bulk of their population which is now on Rannoch. A lesser number of other species' ships suitable for evacuation join this fleet as well. This fleet is responsible for evacuation of non-combatant populations.

Transportation Fleet
The transportation fleet’s core is comprised of Volus trading ships with a lesser number of other species ships suitable for transport of war materiel.

GROUND TROOPS

Elite Forces
Asari Commandos, Asari Justicars, STG Operatives, Spectres, N7

Battlefield Commanders
Turians, Krogan, Humans

Bulk Troops
Vorcha, Geth, Humans, Turians, Krogan

Medics
Salarians, Humans

Tech Specialist
Quarians, Geth

Modifié par Ruathrar, 20 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[IrationalFear]

1. Geth (non-heretic)
2. Rachni
--------------
RIP everyone else. If peace and survival of the galaxy without the Reapers are the ultimate goals, then these two are the only races that seem capable of maintaining peace and managing resources without conflict, due to the relative lack of value of the individual in these societies compared to the welfare of the whole.

Of course, this is fiction, where Utopia is possible to create and is a justifyable end to many brutal and thoughtless means.

[GodWood]

IrationalFear wrote...
1. Geth (non-heretic)
2. Rachni
--------------
RIP everyone else. If peace and survival of the galaxy without the Reapers are the ultimate goals, then these two are the only races that seem capable of maintaining peace and managing resources without conflict, due to the relative lack of value of the individual in these societies compared to the welfare of the whole.

1/ The geth murdered billions of inoccent non-combatants in the Morning War.
2/ The geth commit genocide.
3/ the geth have been attacking anyone who enters their system without warning for three centuries.

Modifié par GodWood, 20 août 2011 - 07:06 .

[marshalleck]

GodWood wrote...

IrationalFear wrote...
1. Geth (non-heretic)
2. Rachni
--------------
RIP everyone else. If peace and survival of the galaxy without the Reapers are the ultimate goals, then these two are the only races that seem capable of maintaining peace and managing resources without conflict, due to the relative lack of value of the individual in these societies compared to the welfare of the whole.

1/ The geth murdered billions of inoccent non-combatants in the Morning War.
2/ The geth commit genocide.
3/ the geth have been attacking anyone who enters their system without warning for three centuries.

4/ the geth are awesome trolls. See Legion's description of the salarian goddess star experiment.

[Ruathrar]

GodWood wrote...

IrationalFear wrote...
1. Geth (non-heretic)
2. Rachni
--------------
RIP everyone else. If peace and survival of the galaxy without the Reapers are the ultimate goals, then these two are the only races that seem capable of maintaining peace and managing resources without conflict, due to the relative lack of value of the individual in these societies compared to the welfare of the whole.

1/ The geth murdered billions of inoccent non-combatants in the Morning War.
2/ The geth commit genocide.
3/ the geth have been attacking anyone who enters their system without warning for three centuries.

1. The Quarians kept attacking them.
2. Which species did they hunt to total extinction?
3. We don't know what happened behind the Viel. My bet is anyone going to their system attacked first.

Note: I love the Quarian and Geth alike. Great species both.

[Warlocomotf]

1 Salarians
2 Asari
3 Quarians
4 Human
5 Turian
6 Elcor
7 Krogan
8 Volus
9 Geth
10 Batarians
11 Vorcha

[twistedforsaken]

im defo not thinking twice about getting rid of the bartarians, they are in some ways like humans so it'll be like getting rid of humantiy only i wont be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Then I will repeat my belief that if your goal is to preserve as many species as possible then you need to prioritize those with the smallest populations and lowest rates of growth.

Towards that end quarians, drell, and krogan need the most consideration as they each have only 1 world to their name (or none in the quarians' case).

That actually sorta works in the quarians advantage..their homes are mobile, so they can move away.