346 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

This is not something that can be resolved.

This was a plot thread that only made sense with the Warden, and now, without the warden, it would only be an afterthought in the future of Dragon Age, especially with this Mage Templar War.

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. They focused solely on Origins, instead of on Origins and the future.

They gave no hints that Morrigan knew of other ways, and then David Gaider even said that the OGB can't exist if you didn't do the DR.

In short, they're screwed.

They absolutely have to find a way to make the OGB canon while still keeping the Warden's US canon for those who went that route. And there are ways that can be done. Most can be found throughout the forums.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[Harid]

I don't personally see how one could uphold the Ultimate Sacrifice and the Old God baby at the same time. . .they are mutually exclusive choices, much like the outcome to the Mage Templar war, two outcomes that are diametrically opposed to each other.

They are screwed. . .and will be pissing people off no matter what they do, which is why they should leave it alone, or resolve it off screen in my opinion.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

I don't personally see how one could uphold the Ultimate Sacrifice and the Old God baby at the same time. . .they are mutually exclusive choices, much like the outcome to the Mage Templar war, two outcomes that are diametrically opposed to each other.

They are screwed. . .and will be pissing people off no matter what they do, which is why they should leave it alone, or resolve it off screen in my opinion.

There are ways:

1) Warden died of a multitude of wartime injuries and burns caused by the Archdemon's explosion. There is no way for people in Thedas to determine that a Warden definitely died because of sharing a spiritual apartment with an Old God's soul. At least not when a Morrigan variable is involved.
2) Warden did die, but the Old God's soul was banished to another realm or some place else and Morrigan used a backup spell Flemeth taught her to draw the Old God's soul from said realm towards her child. The DR was just the quickest and easiest way for her to get the Old God's soul. And if you didn't romance her, that doesn't mean she couldn't have had a child with someone else

[Savber100]

Honestly all these imports are just getting annoying due to bugs and inconsistency.

All I want is a great standalone game with little imports like the sword Starfang or Dragonscale Armor.etc similar to how you keep the Raven Armor in The Witcher 2.

It's either that or just nullify all imports by canonizing one path and THEN restart the plot imports if you want it that badly. Otherwise, the current save imports are just a bunch of unfulfilled promises and frustrations.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

This is not something that can be resolved.

This was a plot thread that only made sense with the Warden, and now, without the warden, it would only be an afterthought in the future of Dragon Age, especially with this Mage Templar War.

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. They focused solely on Origins, instead of on Origins and the future.

They gave no hints that Morrigan knew of other ways, and then David Gaider even said that the OGB can't exist if you didn't do the DR.

In short, they're screwed.

They absolutely have to find a way to make the OGB canon while still keeping the Warden's US canon. And there are ways that can be done. Most can be found throughout the forums.

No they don't. I thought we've already been over this. People act like there's never been a game with mutually exclusive characters before.

If we had two normal characters or two characters who were on equal footing with one another, then sure that might work. But the OGB isn't normal, so it wouldn't feel right (to me at least). The only person who we've seen that comes close to the OGB is Feynriel, but people will have possibly made him Tranquil or an Abomination.

Also, I don't know of any games that have had mutually exclusive characters (unless Awakening sort of counts for having two different types of PCs)

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. 

From what David Gaider has said on the subject it sounds to me like the opposite, that they know how they want to resolve the 2 incompatible choices.

[TEWR]

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. 

From what David Gaider has said on the subject it sounds to me like the opposite, that they know how they want to resolve the 2 incompatible choices.

Is there some David Gaider quote I've missed somewhere?

[Harid]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

This is not something that can be resolved.

This was a plot thread that only made sense with the Warden, and now, without the warden, it would only be an afterthought in the future of Dragon Age, especially with this Mage Templar War.

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. They focused solely on Origins, instead of on Origins and the future.

They gave no hints that Morrigan knew of other ways, and then David Gaider even said that the OGB can't exist if you didn't do the DR.

In short, they're screwed.

They absolutely have to find a way to make the OGB canon while still keeping the Warden's US canon. And there are ways that can be done. Most can be found throughout the forums.

No they don't. I thought we've already been over this. People act like there's never been a game with mutually exclusive characters before.

I've never stated such, but I can't name a Bioware game where past choices can gain/deny you a companion.

This isn't Suikoden.  This isn't what Bioware does.  And when people act like they do do this, when Bioware has stated on these forums that they are not behind that type of world building, people expecting it are crazy to me.

[lobi]

Welcome to Retcon city.
Population: us you.
I did another playthrough

Seriously though, I would not worry too much. Most things retconned because a writer feels it is essential have so far, resulted in a five line Cameo and a bit of codex filler. More of a slight annoyance than game breaking.
Should OGB appear there may be a slight reference to Morrigan and OGB origin in dialogue and a paragraph long codex entry for those with the import flags which will be missing for those who did not do deal.
For others without the flags the origins of OGB may well be resolved with, Protagonist: "Where did you come from?", OGB: "Thedas".
No biggie really. Your choice in Deal or No Deal will not actually impact on the story. Bioware's business as usual , really,
As with how Flemiths resurrection was handled in DA2. The outcome was not decided by the moral ins and outs of player decisions but Flemiths abilitys unknown to even Morrigan. Unless morrigan uses this magic to get OGB, it only requires a small piece of a soul.

Do not forget Morrigans final words when leaving if player chooses not to do ritual. "You will do as you must as will I"

In one version of the Arthurian cycle Morgan le Faye came to Arthur in a dream of his wife to begat Mordred. What is to stop Morrigan Bewitching Alistair or Loghain in a similar fashion? Would she be above murdering the warden the moment the demon is slain to cover it up.
The father of OGB need not be named further than being 'a warden'. In DA2 the death of the archdemon was referred to not as the death of a dragon but, the end of the blight. Much ado about nothing.
Those that are worried need not be.

Modifié par lobi, 24 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[Harid]

lobi wrote...

Welcome to Retcon city.
Population: us you.
I did another playthrough

Seriously though, I would not worry too much. Most things retconned because a writer feels it is essential have so far, resulted in a five line Cameo and a bit of codex filler. More of a slight annoyance than game breaking.
Should OGB appear there may be a slight reference to Morrigan and OGB origin in dialogue and a paragraph long codex entry for those with the import flags which will be missing for those who did not do deal.
For others without the flags the origins of OGB may well be resolved with, Protagonist: "Where did you come from?", OGB: "Thedas".
No biggie really. Your choice in Deal or No Deal will not actually impact on the story. Bioware's business as usual , really,
As with how Flemiths resurrection was handled in DA2. The outcome was not decided by the moral ins and outs of player decisions but Flemiths abilitys unknown to even Morrigan. Unless morrigan uses this magic to get OGB, it only requires a small piece of a soul.

Do not forget Morrigans final words when leaving if player chooses not to do ritual. "You will do as you must as will I"

In one version of the Arthurian cycle Morgan le Faye came to Arthur in a dream of his wife to begat Mordred. What is to stop Morrigan Bewitching Alistair or Loghain in a similar fashion? Would she be above murdering the warden the moment the demon is slain to cover it up.
The father of OGB need not be named further than being 'a warden'. In DA2 the death of the archdemon was referred to not as the death of a dragon but, the end of the blight. Much ado about nothing.
Those that are worried need not be.

Kind of a cop out for the Warden to die of his/her wounds to retcon this, but with modern day Bioware I wouldn't really be surprised.

I'd really like to see them explain Loghain who didn't want to have anyone since the passing of his wife, and Alistair, a virgin who wasn't remotely interested in anyone that wasn't your female Warden, some how 'bewitched' by Morrigan. . .whateverthe****.

Bioware will do whatever the hell they want to do, no matter how stupid it may be.

Modifié par Harid, 24 août 2011 - 07:32 .

[lobi]

Harid wrote...
Kind of a cop out for the Warden to die of his/her wounds to retcon this, but with modern day Bioware I wouldn't really be surprised.

Well, we all complained how Hawk was not enough like the Warden so now they can retcon the Warden to be more like Hawk, ineffectual.

(morgan le faye cast a glimmer so she looked like Guinevere and decieved Arthur as he lay dreaming of his queen)

Modifié par lobi, 24 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[Harid]

lobi wrote...

Harid wrote...
Kind of a cop out for the Warden to die of his/her wounds to retcon this, but with modern day Bioware I wouldn't really be surprised.

Well, we all complained how Hawk was not enough like the Warden so now they can retcon the Warden to be more like Hawk, ineffectual.

I don't think most people complained that the Hawke wasn't like the Warden, as he was.  Most Bioware lead characters are reactive, they are all dominated by their betters and often times they all make dumb choices no rational minded person would make in the name of Bioware Storytelling.

People just wanted someone a bit more proactive, because there are a lot of things that no one would have let slide like Hawke did.  All that Remains being a good example.

[lobi]

Harid wrote...
I don't think most people complained that the Hawke wasn't like the Warden, as he was.  Most Bioware lead characters are reactive, they are all dominated by their betters and often times they all make dumb choices no rational minded person would make in the name of Bioware Storytelling.

People just wanted someone a bit more proactive, because there are a lot of things that no one would have let slide like Hawke did.  All that Remains being a good example.

In DA2 Hawke made choices, at least in Origins I got to make some.
Bioware may not even continue the Origins OGB story but incorporate the idea into the next  story set in the Dragonage universe with only a tenuous connection to the storys preceding it. After all how much info can a side quest give. Remember the Elves v werewolves in DA2?
OGB resolve? either adjudicate a custody battle or a fetch quest revolving around milk and diapers.

Modifié par lobi, 24 août 2011 - 08:25 .

[Harid]

lobi wrote...

Harid wrote...
I don't think most people complained that the Hawke wasn't like the Warden, as he was.  Most Bioware lead characters are reactive, they are all dominated by their betters and often times they all make dumb choices no rational minded person would make in the name of Bioware Storytelling.

People just wanted someone a bit more proactive, because there are a lot of things that no one would have let slide like Hawke did.  All that Remains being a good example.

In DA2 Hawke made choices, at least in Origins I got to make some.
Bioware may not even be a continue the Origins OGB story but incorporate the idea into the next  story set in the Dragonage universe but with only a tenuous connection to the storys preceding it. After all how much info can a side quest give. Remember the Elves v werewolves in DA2?
OGB resolve? either adjudicate a custody battle or a fetch quest revolving around milk and diapers.

In DA:O most choices were reflected in the Epilogue which ultimately do not matter.  Those choises then were hardly reflected in DA:2.

And in DA:2, most of your so called choices lead to the same result, making them, well, not really choices.

Though I do think you don't understand what I mean by proactive and reactive.

Proactive people see a problem, see how it may lead to consequences in the future, and then fix them so those consequences do not occur.  Reactive people generally fix problems that are already there.  Hawke was the very definition of reactive, and the Warden, and most Bioware protagonists, to be truthful, are little better.

However by the time DA:3 rolls around, which should be 10-15 years post DA:O, we are way past the milk and diapers stage.  I just don't want Bioware to do bs accelerated growth. ..it never ends well.

Modifié par Harid, 24 août 2011 - 08:29 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bioware really dug themselves into a hole with the OGB choice. They didn't even think "Well, it's obvious this choice has more potential than the US", nor did they think of what to do in the future. 

From what David Gaider has said on the subject it sounds to me like the opposite, that they know how they want to resolve the 2 incompatible choices.

Is there some David Gaider quote I've missed somewhere?

Don't know if it will make any difference but he did say that it was the 'biggest single choice of Origins'.  

[lobi]

Harid wrote...
However by the time DA:3 rolls around, which should be 10-15 years post DA:O, we are way past the milk and diapers stage.  I just don't want Bioware to do bs accelerated growth. ..it never ends well.

I agree with the accelerated growth thing. I also worry about the so-called rarity of the Eluvian's. My elf found her tainted friend. Morrigan got one. Merril's is fixed. Da3 could end up with Eluvians everywhere and the protagonists using them like Mass Relays'.

Modifié par lobi, 24 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[lobi]

DP

Modifié par lobi, 24 août 2011 - 10:46 .

[Jumee]

I still think that origins is one of the best options, or as i said before just ignoring the kid while he is growing up or whatever, my problem with OGB is that he is not going to be dealt with by the Warden but by some other character (maybe Hawke maybe someone new) and that might mess it all up, also the idea of always having a new character is hhhmm bad cause i think players end up thinking where the hell is the warden where the hell is hawke, cause at the end of DA 2 they (leliana) say that both are busy doing something importand and most probably doing the same thing, so it would be logical to make one of them the main character, but most likely now they will just make a cameo or a codex line out of them

on a side-thought: what is the big deal with them ignoring your choices?? honestly?? if i have a choice between good railroad storyline or diverse player dependant bull@##$ i will choose good railroad, this doesnt mean they shouldnt look for a good way to solve all these problems if they do then great, game will be awesome and my respect for bioware will go  higher, if they dont find a good way out we will still end up having a good game

Modifié par Jumee, 24 août 2011 - 12:50 .

[Aradace]

Seeing as how not everyone did the ritual OP, it was a little naive of you to think that you were going to get to play as your child in the next DA game.

[jcrusader]

Call me stupid, but isn't it really easy to solve this.

Have one of the main characters' on DA3 to have two different Origins, one as Morrigan's child, one as not.

PROBLEM SOLVED.

[Aradace]

jcrusader wrote...

Call me stupid, but isn't it really easy to solve this.

Have one of the main characters' on DA3 to have two different Origins, one as Morrigan's child, one as not.

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Unfortunately, it's never that simple lol.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hypothetically, which would you prefer.
Bioware making both choices irrelevent, and confine the differences in codices, meaningless cameos and maybe an inconsequential sidequest, or canonizing the DR (or finding a way to make so regardless of choice) but taking that path to its fullest potential?

Because honestly, I think what they will come up with is the former.

Neither because I do not see why bot major descisions can't be incorporated and played out in a creative, interesting, and meaningful manner, if time and effort are put into it. And, given that the devs were pretty adamant on it not being canon before, my impression was, is that they already had an idea of how the two different choices could be implemented.

I do not think that following two different decisions would require the OGB scenario to be relegated to just codexes, cameos and mention. It could be part of a major, complex side quest that has great impact on the main story and possible outcomes.

Sure, it would require care work, writing, and development. But....isn't that what's required to make a decent game, period? Isn't that supposed to be part of the video game developer's job description?

Canonizing the DR/OGB would require ridiclous retcons, incosistancies, and a lore nightmare. Especially when there are a signifgant portion of people who did not take that route. There is no way that they could canonize the OGB in a way that I would find believable, interesting, or anything other than a ridiculiusly unacceptable handwave. And I can handwave alot, if the motivation is sufficient.

Not only that, but Canonizing OGB would require that the kid play a central focus/role in a game, which would not be of interest to me. Morrigan  alone, on the other hand, whether she has OGB or not, is a character whose central role in a future game I would find interesting, and she does not require the OGB for this to happen. I actually find Morrigan has alot more mystery and intrigue in her character alone, and I find her far more worthwhile a possibility on her own in the future than I do with the OGB.

Because, well, Morrigan is...Morrigan. She don't need no stinkin god baby to continue to hold my interest.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

They could resolve the situation and the only way I see this happening is for Morrigan to have lied about the child all along. There was no child at least with her. I'm not going to be happy if there is a child and my wardens not be part of the story who did the DR. They have made it clear the warden is not coming back and they try to keep us interested by saying he/she might return. Fat chance. I am one of the players who would have liked to played my warden one more time. Too much time has passed and I could care less at this point.

Flemeth could also be the OGB's mother or she could have already possessed it for all we know. I don't believe that any male warden slept with Morrigan at Redcliffe. I think all male wardens actually sleep with Flemeth, then when you killed the Arch Demon she possessed it at that time and this is the reason for her sudden new revived looks. Morrigan told us in DAO she didn't know if it mattered that Flemeth needed a male or female to possess or that it made a difference.

Morrigan could be pregnant by someone totally new. The warden and her were seperated after Origins.

They let the boat leave them, because most players really don't care at this point. For me it's a dead issue. I just want to know why my warden disappeared and they can do this with a codex entry or whatever and move on. Morrigan or Flemeth killed me when I stepped into the mirror. I went to my calling, the crows fullfilled their contract on me, the first warden had me killed etc, etc, etc. I got to an eluvian and totally changed how I looked and moved on with my life, starting a new life somewhere else. Too many people would want my warden dead anyway from my decisions.

WH should have been an expansion or a whole entire new game to resolve this storyline; this story is what da2 should have been about. The fans tried to tell them this and they blew us off. DA3 should have been about Hawke's story.

I'd rather see dlc or expansions resolve plots not make new ones except for a cliffhanger for a new game in the series. They made a hugh error doing what they did with this storyline. They are really going to have to come up with something big for all fans to be happy to please everyone.