346 réponses à ce sujet

[Knal1991]

For egotistical reason, I rather have not resolving it...

Because of origins being buggy and most of my dlc not even working, I ended up importing an non endgame safe, which at first wouldn't have mattered, awakening ignored the wardens death and so did every other expansion only letting me know I imported the wrong one near endgame of Witch Hunt, I could live without the fact that I did not do the dark ritual but not with my warden dead... total breaking the immersion for me... as DA2 thinks he is dead... adding an old god baby again with my Warden being dead would annoy the living crap out of me... like it's switchin between being alive and no baby or dead and baby... every game..

[Aradace]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

1.)*snip*They could resolve the situation and the only way I see this happening is for Morrigan to have lied about the child all along. There was no child at least with her.*snip*



2.)*snip*Flemeth could also be the OGB's mother or she could have already possessed it for all we know. I don't believe that any male warden slept with Morrigan at Redcliffe. I think all male wardens actually sleep with Flemeth, then when you killed the Arch Demon she possessed it at that time and this is the reason for her sudden new revived looks. Morrigan told us in DAO she didn't know if it mattered that Flemeth needed a male or female to possess or that it made a difference. *snip*

To #1, I agree completely and has kind of been my thinking ever since BW has been so evasive about the OGB in general. 

And to #2, I wasnt exactly sure what I thought at the time but I like the sound of this theory.  Just because Morrigan couldnt shapeshift into another human form doesnt mean that Flemmeth couldnt.  However the only problem I see with it, is if it wasnt Morrigan at the time, then where in the 9 hells was the real Morrigan?  Beyond that, it's a sound theory IMO and wouldnt be too far fetched.  

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Aradace wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

1.)*snip*They could resolve the situation and the only way I see this happening is for Morrigan to have lied about the child all along. There was no child at least with her.*snip*



2.)*snip*Flemeth could also be the OGB's mother or she could have already possessed it for all we know. I don't believe that any male warden slept with Morrigan at Redcliffe. I think all male wardens actually sleep with Flemeth, then when you killed the Arch Demon she possessed it at that time and this is the reason for her sudden new revived looks. Morrigan told us in DAO she didn't know if it mattered that Flemeth needed a male or female to possess or that it made a difference. *snip*

To #1, I agree completely and has kind of been my thinking ever since BW has been so evasive about the OGB in general. 

And to #2, I wasnt exactly sure what I thought at the time but I like the sound of this theory.  Just because Morrigan couldnt shapeshift into another human form doesnt mean that Flemmeth couldnt.  However the only problem I see with it, is if it wasnt Morrigan at the time, then where in the 9 hells was the real Morrigan?  Beyond that, it's a sound theory IMO and wouldnt be too far fetched.  

Edit:  I removed my edit because I realized this is a non spolier thread.  Opps.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Aradace]

So a kind of "assass-IN, assass-OUT" kind of thing eh? Then what about Witch Hunt? Morrigan or not? (Im not trying to disprove it in the least lol. Im just wanting to make sure all basis are covered before I fully take on and trust in the theory )

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Edit, sorry I had spoliers in here.   I had to remove part of this post.

I'm guessing that was mom at the mirror and not the daughter.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 août 2011 - 05:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Sure, it would require care work, writing, and development. But....isn't that what's required to make a decent game, period? Isn't that supposed to be part of the video game developer's job description?

Yes, that's what I thought, before a certain game they released.

Of course ideally they should take into account the choice and still manage to take advantage of the DR's potential (vs the lack of potential for a US or non-DR). But I doubt their ability to do that, quite significantly. 

But yet, I would prefer they avoid Morrigan and the OGB entirely until DA4. By then hopefully things would be improved, especially the writing.

[Jumee]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

WH should have been an expansion or a whole entire new game to resolve this storyline; this story is what da2 should have been about. The fans tried to tell them this and they blew us off. DA3 should have been about Hawke's story.

This is something I fully agree with, and i really wanna believe that Bioware has good writers who will be able to solve these problems

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's what I thought, before a certain game they released.

Yeah...silly us, and our unrealistic expectations of quality effort. Well, that will teach you.

Of course ideally they should take into account the choice and still manage to take advantage of the DR's potential (vs the lack of potential for a US or non-DR). But I doubt their ability to do that, quite significantly. 

But yet, I would prefer they avoid Morrigan and the OGB entirely until DA4. By then hopefully things would be improved, especially the writing.

Technology progresses every day. We are no longer living in the 8 bit hell of the 80's gaming consoles. There is no reason, with the numerous improvements in programing, game engine development, and computer technology, that something like two alternate branching story paths can't be implemented in a satisfactory was in the same game. When you look at Baldur's Gate 2, which was released about 10 years ago when Windows 98 second edition was still all the rage because WIndows ME sucked beyond measure, there was a game that had an incredible amount of complexity and variety for its time. And the technology then was a shadow of what it is now.

So again, I refuse to choose one substandard option over another, when I know that it is possible and completely doable to create a game where both choices play out in a signifgant, meaningful fashion. The technology is there. As far as the writing goes..... trust me, I am no creative genuis, and I can still come up with a few, very basic scenarios in which both paths could be reasonably made to work. And I have seen people post ideas on these forums I thought were excellent, and none of them are game developers by trade, as far as I can tell.

So in the end, it's really down to how much work and effort the developers want to put into making things work. And after DA2, I am less inclined to be lenient in my criticism. When I finished playing DA2, I felt I had just spent some 40 hours playing a game that the creator's didn't seem to care about when they made it, and I, in turn, ended up not caring about it much either.

I can only hope that this trend will be reversed in DA3. And I will be happy to wait longer for a proper development cycle that indicates the developers are putting as much time, effort, and love into it as they did Origins.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Harid wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maybe Bioware should just create a game with divergent paths depending on whether the Ritual was done or not. Of course, what the writers have in mind for the OGB could mean this is more easily said than done, but a massive game where past choices contribute to a big difference in the world is exactly the sort of thing a lot of us would be pleased to see.

It's not Bioware's way, and they will never do it as it goes against their basic tenets in world building.

I wish I could state with absolute confidence just what Bioware's basic tenets in world building are, and what they will never do. <_<

I bet even some of the devs can't do that!

Seriously though, games evolve, and so do companies. 'Never' is a strong word, and after The Witcher 2 Bioware's games have been looking increasingly linear and simplistic by comparison. If they restrict improvements to animation, graphics, combat and cinematics rather than progressing in the realm of building a beautifully complex, multi-tiered story, story-writing being something Bioware is repeatedly praised for and supposed to be the best in their field at, then they are making a huge mistake.

[Harid]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harid wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maybe Bioware should just create a game with divergent paths depending on whether the Ritual was done or not. Of course, what the writers have in mind for the OGB could mean this is more easily said than done, but a massive game where past choices contribute to a big difference in the world is exactly the sort of thing a lot of us would be pleased to see.

It's not Bioware's way, and they will never do it as it goes against their basic tenets in world building.

I wish I could state with absolute confidence just what Bioware's basic tenets in world building are, and what they will never do. <_<

I bet even some of the devs can't do that!

Seriously though, games evolve, and so do companies. 'Never' is a strong word, and after The Witcher 2 Bioware's games have been looking increasingly linear and simplistic by comparison. If they restrict improvements to animation, graphics, combat and cinematics rather than progressing in the realm of building a beautifully complex, multi-tiered story, story-writing being something Bioware is repeatedly praised for and supposed to be the best in their field at, then they are making a huge mistake.

Bioware stated it themselves on these forums years ago that they do not want to create a scenario where some people would gain a brand new companion, and some people would not do to the import of a choice you made in a past game.  Not one with the plot significance as something like the OGB would be.  They have stated that they don't want to penalize a player for a choice they made games ago without somehow warning you that that choice would have that result, otherwise they would be creating scenarios where you could get punished with out warning; you'll notice that every imported choice quest they have added plays out that way (non essential to the plot, limited rewards, nothing game changing or world changing).

If searching wasn't so poor on these forums I'd find it, but I am not going to search through years of posts here to prove a smarmy douche wrong on the internet.  Suffice it to say, if Bioware has changed their policy I'd be more than happy to hear it from them firsthand.  Killing npc's in Mass Effect is nothing similar, as your NPC's in that game aren't really plot significant.  Tali being alive or dead isn't going to make the Reapers impossible to kill, or make a quest impossible to resolve or they'd simply retcon the fact that you got her killed.

And Bioware games have been looking linear and simplistic for over a decade.  It's why 'the chart' exists, it's why they tried making Dragon Age 2 to subvert that chart, and it's why they will go running back to that chart in the future due to the failure of Dragon Age 2.

And Bioware has never been best in the field at storytelling.  Black Isle was best in the field at storytelling.  Black Isle no longer exists.  Bioware, best in the field?  Maybe at characterization at best.  You want to know what Bioware is evolving into?  Creating dating sims.  And that's the truth, at least as so far as what people are calling their games on the net pejoratively nowadays.  But hey, at least we can get Joker/EDI romances, right!

Exhibit A:

Modifié par Harid, 26 août 2011 - 12:38 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Harid wrote...

Bioware stated it themselves on these forums years ago that they do not want to create a scenario where some people would gain a brand new companion, and some people would not do to the import of a choice you made in a past game.  Not one with the plot significance as something like the OGB would be.

Then...don't have the OGB as a companion at all? Easy.

They have stated that they don't want to penalize a player for a choice they made games ago without somehow warning you that that choice would have that result, otherwise they would be creating scenarios where you could get punished with out warning; you'll notice that every imported choice quest they have added plays out that way (non essential to the plot, limited rewards, nothing game changing or world changing).

That's nice and all, but why would a divergent path game mean having done the Dark Ritual or not at all penalises one player or another? So long as both sides have a relatively equal opportunity for things to go wrong or right depending on their choices, so what? One side gets OBG-related quests, the other side gets something else to play with.

Yes, currently their system for important choice quests isn't very good. They can improve, I hope, but you're welcome to believe they'll never change. Type it in allcaps if you think it makes your point stronger.

[esper]

You could also make the point that we were warned that the ogb would be a significant choice. That said, I don't really care about it.

[Sakatox]

Maybe we are looking at this all wrong.
I don't know how many of you know that comic of the Teen Titans + some "OC" sonic characters where Robin checks if someone is pregnant or not...

Robin: Morrigan isn't pregnant. I checked. Let's hit the showers.

Alternate version, if she was pregnant:
Robin: She had an abortion, i checked. Let's hit the showers.

Just as an added 2 cents approach.

(Please do not resolve the ogb situation in A BOOK.)

[Harid]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harid wrote...

Bioware stated it themselves on these forums years ago that they do not want to create a scenario where some people would gain a brand new companion, and some people would not do to the import of a choice you made in a past game.  Not one with the plot significance as something like the OGB would be.

Then...don't have the OGB as a companion at all? Easy.

They have stated that they don't want to penalize a player for a choice they made games ago without somehow warning you that that choice would have that result, otherwise they would be creating scenarios where you could get punished with out warning; you'll notice that every imported choice quest they have added plays out that way (non essential to the plot, limited rewards, nothing game changing or world changing).

That's nice and all, but why would a divergent path game mean having done the Dark Ritual or not at all penalises one player or another? So long as both sides have a relatively equal opportunity for things to go wrong or right depending on their choices, so what? One side gets OBG-related quests, the other side gets something else to play with.

Yes, currently their system for important choice quests isn't very good. They can improve, I hope, but you're welcome to believe they'll never change. Type it in allcaps if you think it makes your point stronger.

Then you have to explain why the people who did choose the OGB don't have access to the quests the people who didn't have access to, when there is little reason for that to be the case.

You can keep your hopes up, sure, but as I've stated before there's no way that this will be handled that won't ****** people off.  Bioware is in a tough position, and this was a major choice that they treated as a throwaway one, that now will be impossible to resolve properly.

I personally want results.  Bioware hasn't proven to me,well ever, that they are getting better at importing choices, and I have no reason to expect that trend to change.

[Elizabeth Lestrad]

Sakatox wrote...
Please do not resolve the ogb situation in A BOOK.

I agree whole heartidly, that would be the most assinine cop-out ever.  It was a major point of the origional story, it demands "full attention".  A paragraph in a book or rumors and hearsay dialogue is not the way they should address this at all.  If Flemeth is still alive, Morrigan has to make an appearance which would mean the child would also.  Theres really no other way to do it properly.

[Jumee]

Harid wrote...


Then you have to explain why the people who did choose the OGB don't have access to the quests the people who didn't have access to, when there is little reason for that to be the case.

well there is a way to explain that depending on a plot: for exapmle, if OGB is used to solve an important issue (darkspawn invasion, qunari, flemeth whatever), then people who didnt do DR have to find another way so they have quests that people with DR dont, so really if they put some effort into it they can easily explain that.


regarding that table - atleast half of games, movies, books storylines have similiar cliches - ancient evils, dreams visions, evil organisation, elite orders etc etc
lets take max payne for example: you are just a cop (humble origin) your family gets killed (personal tragedy) you are half crazy and have dreams and nightmares (sleeping) it is all done by evil corporation (organisation behind evil)
so it isnt just bioware really[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]




another thing everyone accuses bioware in their imports being useless but atleast it is something and they are still working on it so it will (i hope) keep getting better and better (btw im not saying that importing saves is done good it is not the point is that there arent really many other games that have great save import options)

Modifié par Jumee, 26 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[Requiesta De Silencia]

The OGB could be the main character of Dragon Age 3 or could've been if they already decided to do something else with it

If they use it that way then it'd be more satisfying...we get to decide what happens to our kid > or the kid we forced allistar or loghain to make

[Travie]

From the interviews before DA2 came out--not to mention the end result--its pretty easy to see this team tried to cut corners wherever they could. The environments being just one example.

This wasn't the team that looked at the game and thought, "how can I cram this full of more fun and content?"

I think we can write off seeing the OGB again unless its the 'default' option for DA3 for people who didn't play through 1&2 or didn't import.

Then again, you can never tell if they are going to hire on some new blood that wont cut as many corners.

[Alexander1136]

Brockololly wrote...

"BioWare... resolve.... Old God Baby situation?"


The resolution or consequence to what is supposed to be the biggest choice of Origins will likely come via a line of dialogue you'll be lucky to get from Hot Rod Samurai art style Morrigan, but of course, that dialogue branch will be bugged to high hell due to the import issues which have existed with literally every single Morrigan related plot flag.

Note, they say "try." When this likely should have been a big consequence resolved in an expack for DAO and not dragged out this far, seeing as they've effectively killed off the Warden as PC no matter if you did the DR or not.

so your an optimist? 
your right its gonna blow with all the import bugs and the lame new art style.. but there's always hope.

[Sabariel]

BioWare: *frantic hand waving*

Tada! OGB problem solved!

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Harid wrote...


Then you have to explain why the people who did choose the OGB don't have access to the quests the people who didn't have access to, when there is little reason for that to be the case.

Considering we don't know what the impact of the OGB is, it's a bit presumptuous to think this way. When I used the word 'divergent' before, I meant a major game split where DR people go one way in the game with the OGB and get quests over that way, while non-DR people go in a different direction. Their major quests could be mutually exclusive to a point, even if Bioware doesn't go the whole nine yards by creating entirely separate areas for each side as was seen in TW2.

There is no explaining necessary if both sides get their own unique story arc quests that the other side cannot access.

You can keep your hopes up, sure, but as I've stated before there's no way that this will be handled that won't ****** people off.

Bioware can't do anything at all without pissing people off, it seems.

Bioware is in a tough position, and this was a major choice that they treated as a throwaway one, that now will be impossible to resolve properly.

I disagree that it's impossible. The problem is whether they have the time, skill, and technical capabilty to pull it off.

Also, whether they're interested in telling another linear story or letting the players influence it into our own story.

I personally want results.  Bioware hasn't proven to me,well ever, that they are getting better at importing choices, and I have no reason to expect that trend to change.

My favourite series of games (Ultima) was linear. There were perhaps two games out of nine that had alternate endgames (in one you are trapped and basically lose the game FOREVER, in the other you abandon the world by going through the a magic gate and never return and never, ever, hear what happened after you left), they were open world for the most part in that you could wander anywhere on the map, get horribly lost and horribly killed by monsters too tough for you (they didn't scale. If you walked into a nest of dragons at level 1, you were toast), and you could talk to every NPC on the planet. Even the guards. Your companions could permanently die in Ultima 5, yet the major ones would he hale and healthy in the next game.

If there were imports between games, it was only your EXP and stats. Because there wasn't really the technology for multi-pathed games and importing flags back then--this stuff is all pretty new.

Was it jarring for my Evil-aligned Child of Bhaal to wake up with Minsc and Jaheira in BG2? Yes, and not just because Minsc was meant to be dead. But that was relatively minor.

Bioware did try to import our decisions from DA:O. Not all the flags worked, sadly, but it was a start. Personally I think it'd be smarter to give us an Advanced character import system where we have the choice to just manually set the flags for what we did/didn't do, but maybe next game.

Fact is, they are starting to import things. Small things so far, but I hope they'll get bigger and better, and eventually sophisticated enough to handle the OGB.

[imsyfi]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Even if I thought the DR was a idiot copout the second it was introduced.

Thats the problem with the DR as it exists in Origins- there is no reason within Origins not to do it. Sure for RP reasons you might turn it down, but the entire choice is in large part predicated on your PC's relationship and trust of Morrigan and that you would trust her with a possible OGB in the future.

Its not even so much a choice of living or dying as you can easily live without doing the DR if you want. As its presented in the game to the player, its a choice which is made out to be very important and a BIG choice with BIG consequences- that you're creating the OGB and you'd be the first Warden to be able to personally kill the AD without dying.

And yet, since it happens so close to the end, nothing ever comes of it. And since BioWare is insistent on never playing as the Warden again, the player will never be able to personally experienc any consequences of a DR Warden's actions, good or bad. At most you'll be on the outside looking in, giving BioWare an easy out for just tossing in a lame cameo or codex or line of dialogue while waving their hands and saying "Oooooooh! The OGB is a mystery now! Ooooooooh!"

The more I think about it, the more I've come to believe Bioware is just winging this entire series and barely has any idea what the series should actually be about.

This is why i wish Dragon Age should have been an epic following one protagonist throughout the main series (or trilogy), like Mass Effect. If we have a new protagonist every game, then nothing ever gets resolved because the next game is focusing on a completely different story and the previos conflicts are forgotten. The big major decisions end up being bug-ridden cameos at best.

I remember feeling absolutely excited about DA2 when i finished Origins because i was thinking about the implications of the OGB. I thought we were going to be playing the Warden in the next game.

Agreed. The best news was that Hawke didn't return (because I felt Hawke never acted and was just forced in the story - no matter what choice you made), but as you mentioned that can make story continuation worse, and like Brock mentioned the player won't experience it. Although I don't mind the Warden is gone, after reading all this I kind of wish the Warden would be back, because a third PC certainly won't improve the situation. However, continuity is an issue that is a general BW problem. It's not only related to the DA franchise. It's BW's weak point.

Wouldn't the warden be getting up there in age by the time DA2 is over and DA3 is beginning? She/he was practically a child when DAO began, but a lot of years have passed since.  ( ... and I'm speaking from an elven POV).