346 réponses à ce sujet

[JimmyTheProthean]

Zanallen wrote...

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

The thing that worries me for the players who romance morrigan and wanted to see their son its an insult if bioware just suddenly makes our child a sideliner or kills urthemiel off hes like a big box of candy waiting to be opend! if they can make the ogbs story good then by all means please do it.

The easiest solution would be to just have someone kill the OGB in an effort to take its power.

Thats exactly what i foremost don't want!!!! to happen to my wardens son.

[Icy Magebane]

Zanallen wrote...

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

The thing that worries me for the players who romance morrigan and wanted to see their son its an insult if bioware just suddenly makes our child a sideliner or kills urthemiel off hes like a big box of candy waiting to be opend! if they can make the ogbs story good then by all means please do it.

The easiest solution would be to just have someone kill the OGB in an effort to take its power.

The problem that still exists is that if a Warden died, the OGB could not have been created...  I expect that to be retconned but still... it's kind of a downer to think such a big choice simply won't matter in the end.

[Zanallen]

@TEWR

I get the feeling that Bioware wanted to create a world and a lore and then set games within it. That is where their idea of Dragon Age being about Thedas rather than a particular group or person comes in. The problem is that they shouldn't have had any overarching plotlines. They overly complicate the matter.

[Zanallen]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The problem that still exists is that if a Warden died, the OGB could not have been created...  I expect that to be retconned but still... it's kind of a downer to think such a big choice simply won't matter in the end.

And then you don't mention the OGB at all.

But really, the OGB can't have a major impact on future games. It just won't work well.

[TEWR]

Tirfan wrote...

@TEWR: Well, different PC:s can be a problem when resolving plotlines that another PC started - it can get really weird, I had that rather great emotional investment in the Warden/Morri/OGB-plotline.. and exploring that stuff with a new PC probably will not just have the same amount of impact as exploring that plotline as The Warden.

But yeah.. Otherwise I kind of agree.. I don't think BW really knows WTF they are doing with the franchise, in terms of storyline&general theme. Not to mention the other things.

Well, I think the OGB could have interactions with the Warden if they're brought back. Or perhaps when the OGB talks about his life, you see flashbacks of the Warden being with the OGB. Cinematic (depending on how many years we have for the kid) or sort of picture style with dialogue text that you scroll through. The latter would be preferable for almost everyone, though I have to admit I really want Xanthos Aeducan to be voiced by Fred Tatasciore. After I heard his voice set thingy, I was like "Dammit that voice is too perfect for me to think anything else will work..."

Anyway....

Also the Warden should've always been able to go with Morrigan through the mirror. Gender and romance be damned. If the Warden's going to disappear, then he/she needs to do it in the only way we have established. Eluvian. But Morrigan romantics should've had more of a change in Witch Hunt so they too don't feel cheated.

Now, I guess maybe Morrigan's gift was "In case you change your mind, I left the book on the Eluvians there, and then there's some other stuff you could use. Oh and I found another Eluvian in blah blah blah land".

[AngryFrozenWater]

Zanallen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Agreed. The best news was that Hawke didn't return (because I felt Hawke never acted and  was just forced in the story - no matter what choice you made), but as you mentioned that can make story continuation worse, and like Brock mentioned the player won't experience it. Although I don't mind the Warden is gone, after reading all this I kind of wish the Warden would be back, because a third PC certainly wouldn't improve the situation. However, continuity is an issue that is a general BW problem. It's not only related to the DA franchise. It's BW's weak point.

Well, Mass Effect is Bioware's first foray into a series with actual continuation, so it isn't like they have a lot of experience. BG2 ignored all of the choices made in BG1 while none of their other games up until ME received a Bioware sequel.

Sorry... There are lots of continuation problems in ME2 as well. It depends whether you liked the replacement of reapers by collectors and were content with the way Ashly/Kaidan, Wrex and Liara were dealt with; and if you didn't mind that Garrus and Tali completely did not respond to certain decisions you made in ME1; and if you didn't mind paying for LotSB to get some closure about Liara; and if you didn't mind paying for a bridging DLC.

If you think about a bridging DLC then it proves there was no planning at all. A planned story doesn't need a bridge in the form of a DLC. A planned story just continues. And BTW... Remember that there was going to be a bridge between ME1 and ME2 as well? Despite all the threads about it on the old forums that DLC never materialized.

Edit: But I don't like to take this off-topic, so I leave it at that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 août 2011 - 08:04 .

[Icy Magebane]

Zanallen wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The problem that still exists is that if a Warden died, the OGB could not have been created...  I expect that to be retconned but still... it's kind of a downer to think such a big choice simply won't matter in the end.

And then you don't mention the OGB at all.

But really, the OGB can't have a major impact on future games. It just won't work well.

This would be ideal... if the OGB exists, do whatever... if not, don't bring it up at all.  I am 100% against retcons, even if they don't affect my characters.

But I don't see them taking this route... based on their past decisions.  It'll come down to blanket storyline in spite of what we chose, mark my words.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 20 août 2011 - 08:04 .

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

@TEWR

I get the feeling that Bioware wanted to create a world and a lore and then set games within it. That is where their idea of Dragon Age being about Thedas rather than a particular group or person comes in. The problem is that they shouldn't have had any overarching plotlines. They overly complicate the matter.

Yea I understand they wanted a world and lore and Thedas as the main character. That's something I actually got back in DAO. But I think they're focusing too much on "What do we do now?" instead of "What do we do now, then, and later on?"

And yes they can get complicated, but they can be done successfully as long as it's also done carefully.

[Zanallen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry... There are lots of continuation problems in ME2 as well. It depends whether you liked the replacement of reapers by collectors and were content with the way Ashly/Kaidan, Wrex and Liara were dealt with; and if you didn't mind that Garrus and Tali completely did not respond to certain decisions you made in ME1; and if you didn't mind paying for LotSB to get some closure about Liara; and if you didn't mind paying for a bridging DLC.

If you think about a bridging DLC then it proves there was no planning at all. A planned story doesn't need a bridge in the form of a DLC. A planned story just continues. And BTW... Remember that there was going to be a bridge between ME1 and ME2 as well? Despite all the threads about it on the old forums that DLC never materialized.

Edit: But I don't like to take this off-topic, so I leave it at that.

That's why I said that they don't have any real experience in this area. ME 2 is their first game that has any sort of continuation.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea I understand they wanted a world and lore and Thedas as the main character. That's something I actually got back in DAO. But I think they're focusing too much on "What do we do now?" instead of "What do we do now, then, and later on?"

And yes they can get complicated, but they can be done successfully as long as it's also done carefully.

I think the stories would be much better if they didn't have overarching plotlines and all games were self contained. Then it wouldn't matter so much what they did now, then and later on.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry... There are lots of continuation problems in ME2 as well. It depends whether you liked the replacement of reapers by collectors and were content with the way Ashly/Kaidan, Wrex and Liara were dealt with; and if you didn't mind that Garrus and Tali completely did not respond to certain decisions you made in ME1; and if you didn't mind paying for LotSB to get some closure about Liara; and if you didn't mind paying for a bridging DLC.

If you think about a bridging DLC then it proves there was no planning at all. A planned story doesn't need a bridge in the form of a DLC. A planned story just continues. And BTW... Remember that there was going to be a bridge between ME1 and ME2 as well? Despite all the threads about it on the old forums that DLC never materialized.

Edit: But I don't like to take this off-topic, so I leave it at that.

That's why I said that they don't have any real experience in this area. ME 2 is their first game that has any sort of continuation.

I'm going to say something, though it may just be me talking out of my ass so....

I think proper continuation is one of those things where you really need to play the game you're continuing from many times to know what should be done in the future. Or say to yourself "Uh oh, we messed up a little bit here, and this is really important. We should figure out a way to rectify this somehow".

Of course, I'd like to think Bioware has done this, but I can't really say. I don't work there, and I don't know what happens there.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Zanallen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry... There are lots of continuation problems in ME2 as well. It depends whether you liked the replacement of reapers by collectors and were content with the way Ashly/Kaidan, Wrex and Liara were dealt with; and if you didn't mind that Garrus and Tali completely did not respond to certain decisions you made in ME1; and if you didn't mind paying for LotSB to get some closure about Liara; and if you didn't mind paying for a bridging DLC.

If you think about a bridging DLC then it proves there was no planning at all. A planned story doesn't need a bridge in the form of a DLC. A planned story just continues. And BTW... Remember that there was going to be a bridge between ME1 and ME2 as well? Despite all the threads about it on the old forums that DLC never materialized.

Edit: But I don't like to take this off-topic, so I leave it at that.

That's why I said that they don't have any real experience in this area. ME 2 is their first game that has any sort of continuation.

ME and DA aren't the only franchises with more than one title.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea I understand they wanted a world and lore and Thedas as the main character. That's something I actually got back in DAO. But I think they're focusing too much on "What do we do now?" instead of "What do we do now, then, and later on?"

And yes they can get complicated, but they can be done successfully as long as it's also done carefully.

I think the stories would be much better if they didn't have overarching plotlines and all games were self contained. Then it wouldn't matter so much what they did now, then and later on.

Probably, but is that even something that could be done with the lore Thedas has? Some things can't be handled in just one game. If you have to tell a grand story, it might not be able to be done in just one game.

like the Mage-Templar War. That's something that can't be done in just one game. You need to both build up to it, and then explore it.

DAII didn't build up to it in a good way, but that's irrelevant to my point so why I said it I don't know. Perhaps just to keep the people who do think that happy and so they don't start turning this into a "They haven't bashed DAII yet! Let's bash it!" thread.

....though they always turn into that.

what were we talking about again?

[csfteeeer]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea I understand they wanted a world and lore and Thedas as the main character. That's something I actually got back in DAO. But I think they're focusing too much on "What do we do now?" instead of "What do we do now, then, and later on?"

And yes they can get complicated, but they can be done successfully as long as it's also done carefully.

I think the stories would be much better if they didn't have overarching plotlines and all games were self contained. Then it wouldn't matter so much what they did now, then and later on.

precisely for this is why i think they shouldn't change protagonist now.

like you said, they have overly complicated everything, without ever needing to.

If DA2 was willing to simply let the story conclude at the end, they would have made their day easier because that way at the very least they could have resolved the loose plots through DLC, not what i would have done, but it's something.

Instead, they plan on changing protagonist, when they have setup the characters in previous for something, and they have a lot loose plots they need to resolve, but changing protagonist will just make everything harder.

For that, i think BW simply doesn't know what to do now.

[Giubba]

Zanallen wrote...

@TEWR

I get the feeling that Bioware wanted to create a world and a lore and then set games within it. That is where their idea of Dragon Age being about Thedas rather than a particular group or person comes in. The problem is that they shouldn't have had any overarching plotlines. They overly complicate the matter.

And that's reason why they shouldn't have allowed players interfer with the correct develeopment of the story.
The problem for me is not the old god baby pltoline ,that could have been one of the major event in the dragon age,
but the choice given to the player that made a mess of it.

[TEWR]

csfteeeer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea I understand they wanted a world and lore and Thedas as the main character. That's something I actually got back in DAO. But I think they're focusing too much on "What do we do now?" instead of "What do we do now, then, and later on?"

And yes they can get complicated, but they can be done successfully as long as it's also done carefully.

I think the stories would be much better if they didn't have overarching plotlines and all games were self contained. Then it wouldn't matter so much what they did now, then and later on.

precisely for this is why i think they shouldn't change protagonist now.

like you said, they have overly complicated everything, without ever needing to.

If DA2 was willing to simply let the story conclude at the end, they would have made their day easier because that way at the very least they could have resolved the loose plots through DLC, not what i would have done, but it's something.

Instead, they plan on changing protagonist, when they have setup the characters in previous for something, and they have a lot loose plots they need to resolve, but changing protagonist will just make everything harder.

For that, i think BW simply doesn't know what to do now.

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


* For other people out there: I said ALMOST.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[Zanallen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

ME and DA aren't the only franchises with more than one title.

The only other one is BG and it ignored all continuity to have its own story.

[TEWR]

Giubba1985 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

@TEWR

I get the feeling that Bioware wanted to create a world and a lore and then set games within it. That is where their idea of Dragon Age being about Thedas rather than a particular group or person comes in. The problem is that they shouldn't have had any overarching plotlines. They overly complicate the matter.

And that's reason why they shouldn't have allowed players interfer with the correct develeopment of the story.
The problem for me is not the old god baby pltoline ,that could have been one of the major event in the dragon age,
but the choice given to the player that made a mess of it.

I agree. Giving us an obviously important choice that will have ramifications in the future, and then saying "If you go this route, those ramifications don't exist." shouldn't have been done.

The extent of saying no to Morrigan should've been established as "You die a heroic death". There should've been many hints that Morrigan could still have an OGB in some way, even if you died against the Archdemon.

It still gives players their meaningful choice, but keeps the important issue alive. And while in theory there are ways the OGB could be done with what Bioware has, I'm extremely skeptical of how it would turn out in practice.


Now, I'm off to bed people. Don't make this thread jump too far ahead please

[csfteeeer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


*I said ALMOST.

i'm not even sure if they ever had a plan, and if they did, then it's not a very good one.

I'm not a fan of Hawke, but using him/her again would make the resolution of several loose plots easier, and hell, even The Warden, giving how he/she was setup at the end of DA2 and how he/she is envolved in OGB thing.

Changing protagonists seems like a whim at this point.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 20 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[TEWR]

csfteeeer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


*I said ALMOST.

i'm not even sure if they ever had a plan, and if they did, then it's not a very good one.

I'm not a fan of Hawke, but using him/her again would make the resolution of several loose plots easier, and hell, even The Warden, giving how he/she was setup at the end of DA2 and how he/she is envolved in OGB thing.

Changing protagonists seems like a whim at this point.

As far as the story for the series goes, I highly doubt they had a plan. But for PCs, I think switching them up was always their plan.

[csfteeeer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


*I said ALMOST.

i'm not even sure if they ever had a plan, and if they did, then it's not a very good one.

I'm not a fan of Hawke, but using him/her again would make the resolution of several loose plots easier, and hell, even The Warden, giving how he/she was setup at the end of DA2 and how he/she is envolved in OGB thing.

Changing protagonists seems like a whim at this point.

As far as the story for the series goes, I highly doubt they had a plan. But for PCs, I think switching them up was always their plan.

And theres the issue.

The PCs are part of the story, and (assuming you're correct of course) they're planning thier future separetaly?
Something is eventually gonna go wrong there,

Modifié par csfteeeer, 20 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[Giubba]

csfteeeer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


*I said ALMOST.

i'm not even sure if they ever had a plan, and if they did, then it's not a very good one.

I'm not a fan of Hawke, but using him/her again would make the resolution of several loose plots easier, and hell, even The Warden, giving how he/she was setup at the end of DA2 and how he/she is envolved in OGB thing.

Changing protagonists seems like a whim at this point.

I don't see any plot lines that can be solved only from the MC who started it , damn to the spoiler free section.

[TEWR]

csfteeeer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm wondering if they're changing protagonists solely because that was their plan, or if it's a combination of that and them realizing how Hawke is almost* universally hated for how he was portrayed.


*I said ALMOST.

i'm not even sure if they ever had a plan, and if they did, then it's not a very good one.

I'm not a fan of Hawke, but using him/her again would make the resolution of several loose plots easier, and hell, even The Warden, giving how he/she was setup at the end of DA2 and how he/she is envolved in OGB thing.

Changing protagonists seems like a whim at this point.

As far as the story for the series goes, I highly doubt they had a plan. But for PCs, I think switching them up was always their plan.

And theres the issue.

The PCs are part of the story, and (assuming you're correct of course) they're planning thier future separetaly?
Something is eventually gonna go wrong there,

I agree that most likely it will go bad. At the very least, Hawke should be central in DAIII for a while before disappearing with his LI.

Perhaps you play as him at max level leading assaults against whatever faction you're on the side of, and eventually he just vanishes. All experience you earned fighting enemies gets transferred to the new protagonist.