346 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

KLUME777 wrote...
This is why i wish Dragon Age should have been an epic following one protagonist throughout the main series (or trilogy), like Mass Effect. If we have a new protagonist every game, then nothing ever gets resolved because the next game is focusing on a completely different story and the previos conflicts are forgotten. The big major decisions end up being bug-ridden cameos at best.

I remember feeling absolutely excited about DA2 when i finished Origins because i was thinking about the implications of the OGB. I thought we were going to be playing the Warden in the next game.

I don't think DA need be a ME style trilogy or anything, but I wish they'd at least learn to provide more adequate closure to things for certain PCs before moving on. Or not ruling out that an old PC could return as a playable PC once again in the future should the story call for it. One of the biggest problems I think I'm going to have with DA in the future is how each new PC will not have the same level of knowledge as the player, or if they run into old companions/characters, the player has past experience with them but not the PC. Its that disparity  that often rubs me the wrong way in games like KotOR2 or the NWN games with the revolving door of protagonists.

Filament wrote...

I think writing his character as  Morrigan's son first and foremost with OGB status as a variable could  work, if they handle it carefully. I don't know how they'd handle the  parents in a way that wouldn't make certain sectors of the community  aneurysm though.

Its a lose/lose situation really- one of the dialogue choices a Warden can make with Morrigan in Witch Hunt is to say that you want to go through the Eluvian to be with the child. Which would imply at least in part that maybe the Warden didn't want to be a deadbeat dad. So to have Morrigan and/or the OGB turn up in the future with no trace of the Warden's influence would be pretty weak.


I recall a quote from Gaider back on the old DA forums made back in 07 or 08 maybe regarding how they were thinking of Origin stories in games beyond DAO. And he mentioned one possible Origin being the possibility of playing as the offspring of the prior game's hero/LI, based on the choices you made in the first game. It was brought up as conjecture but the parallels are there with the OGB.


I just thought, given the way it was presented in Origins, that the DR would be a huge choice that would have huge consequences in the sequel. On the scope of whether your Warden lived or died in Origins, that would affect whether you played as them in a sequel or expack. And I thought that sounded awesome. But then you had Awakening which handwaved away US Wardens with zero story reason. I guess that should have been the first red flag with how BioWare doesn't do the whole consequence thing.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 août 2011 - 01:35 .

[andraip]

I'm not expecting more then a side-quest that you'll have if you did the DR in DA:O. Or if it will be major in the plot then BioWare will probably make it canon (Morrigan achieved her goal another way).

[Prince_12]

andraip wrote...

I'm not expecting more then a side-quest that you'll have if you did the DR in DA:O. Or if it will be major in the plot then BioWare will probably make it canon (Morrigan achieved her goal another way).

And this is something that really disturbes me with BW games. They make it so that everyone can experience the same as everyone else could, despite of your choiches made. People who got Morrigan pregnant should get something exclusive, something big, and those who didn't would get something else. This annoys me very much. It's like whatever you choose eventually leads to the same result, and BW  doesn't want to make it so that people don't get the same experiene as others.

[Dragoonlordz]

So wait, people want Bioware to kill babies now? What has the world come too...

OGB like said before would make a great MC for last title in the IP. (imho)

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[IanPolaris]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

So wait, people want Bioware to kill babies now? What has the world come too...

Only Old God Babies.  Not to worry

-Polaris

[dheer]

Zanallen wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
The problem that still exists is that if a Warden died, the OGB could not have been created...  I expect that to be retconned but still... it's kind of a downer to think such a big choice simply won't matter in the end.

And then you don't mention the OGB at all.

But really, the OGB can't have a major impact on future games. It just won't work well.

That's what really stinks. What felt like the biggest decision in the entire game is rendered completely meaningless.

[TEWR]

Its a lose/lose situation really- one of the dialogue choices a Warden can make with Morrigan in Witch Hunt is to say that you want to go through the Eluvian to be with the child. Which would imply at least in part that maybe the Warden didn't want to be a deadbeat dad. So to have Morrigan and/or the OGB turn up in the future with no trace of the Warden's influence would be pretty weak.

Agreed.

Somewhat related, much of the problem I have with WH is that only Morrigan romancers could go with her, and now we find out the Warden vanished.

Now, unless Morrigan left the Wardens who didn't go with her clues on how to find another Eluvian if they change their mind, then how the Warden vanished is odd. There were no clues that this was a possibility, yet I believe Bioware is going to do this anyway.

While it wouldn't be a retcon, it would still rub me the wrong way because it's another instance of "We focused on the now rather than the now, then, and later on"

As for the Warden being a part of the OGB's life, a few pages back I thought up that Bioware could possibly have the OGB talk about the Warden's influence on his life. And instead of focusing on the OGB talking, they move to screenshots where the Warden talks to the OGB (no voice, just dialogue scrolling much like Fire Emblem does).

Hell, maybe even let us play as the Warden in that brief instance. With the Sentinel Armor set as his armor.

[naledgeborn]

Brockololly wrote...

I recall a quote from Gaider back on the old DA forums made back in 07 or 08 maybe regarding how they were thinking of Origin stories in games beyond DAO. And he mentioned one possible Origin being the possibility of playing as the offspring of the prior game's hero/LI, based on the choices you made in the first game. It was brought up as conjecture but the parallels are there with the OGB.

That in itself is something worth pushing for though even if it is conjecture at this point. I mean as the players who basically made the whole Morrigan/Warden situation happen and then the Dark Ritual I think it would be a great way to have a "Warden-less" game without fanrage. Who would know our Wardens better than us? Who would know what effect he had on the OGB better than the fans who stepped into his boots during DA:O? Have the plot flags heavily influence OGB's/Morrigan's dialogue and I'm happy. An OGB origin can continue the Warden's story while the Warden is off screen (for whatever reason) so to speak. A lot better than PC, Champion of whatever # 4 handling that story arc.

[Brockololly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Somewhat related, much of the problem I have with WH is that only Morrigan romancers could go with her, and now we find out the Warden vanished.

Well, I;m ok with only romancing Wardens being able to go since it would seem predicated on the possibility of Morrigan having a child and the PC being the father, Old God baby or normal. Thats actually a nice consequence to the choice of romancing Morrigan that provides some divergence and reactivity. Conversely, those Wardens that stay behind get that book or gift or whatever it is and Morrigan insinuates that the Warden that stays behind might have some role to play in the future.

The Warden vanishing aspect works if you went through the Eluvian. But even then you have Alistair in DA2 mucking it up with his line about the Hero of Ferelden returning to Denerim. So did the Warden really disappear or not?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
As for the Warden being a part of the OGB's life, a few pages back I thought up that Bioware could possibly have the OGB talk about the Warden's influence on his life. And instead of focusing on the OGB talking, they move to screenshots where the Warden talks to the OGB (no voice, just dialogue scrolling much like Fire Emblem does).

Hell, maybe even let us play as the Warden in that brief instance. With the Sentinel Armor set as his armor.

I always thought it would have been interesting if the Warden PC's standing or relationship with Morrigan would influence in part how the OGB's attitude toward things developed or if the Warden was the father, then the PC could influence the OGB as well.

But much of the problem in splitting the player from the Warden PC with Morrigan/OGB/DR related developments is that even if your Warden trusts Morrigan enough to go through the Eluvian, we still have no clue what she is up to. So maybe your Warden went through the Eluvian but once there totally disagrees with what Morrigan is up to. But I have the feeling should the Warden/Morrigan ever show up again, the Warden will likely just be a lacky for whatever Morrigan is doing. Which would be a shame when I thought what made that relationship interesting was how the Warden could change Morrigan's attitude and at least cause her to question her beliefs at times.

[Ryzaki]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Dark Ritual offended me as a writer and a player. "Only sex can save you!" Ugh. It was attaching a very poor RP reason to what I like to call the 'Obsidian ending.' That is a forced endgame sexual encounter with someone you probably weren't romancing. It wasn't helped by the fact I couldn't talk to my LI about it first.

Within the RP, it still was a terrible idea. It seemed pretty apparent to me that Flemeth was setting Morrigan up. If she really does need a new body, an Old God body would probably last alot longer than Morrigan's human one.

Anyway, theres enough reasons both in game and out why someone would avoid the ritual. Because there's at least two endings that don't involve doing it, that means they can't do anything that requires the OGB to exist. 

However they could do an event that changes based on if the OGB exists or not. For example, if the OGB was never born, Morrigan takes its place for whatever its intended purpose was and Bad Things happen as a result. 

But Its probably best to just think of the OGB as the Dragon Age version of the Rachni Queen, and limit your expectations.

Also this god I thought it was so damn stupid. 

[willholt]

Icy Magebane wrote...

  I mean, technically, it's impossible for the OGB to exist if a Warden died, but I guess it's not my story, so the writers can do whatever they want, right?

Why should should it be impossible for the OGB to exist if the Warden died... One being the case doesn't have to exclude the other.

I can think of at least one scenario in which the warden dies while killing the Archdemon, but Morrigan still gets her way and has the OGB.

How?

Well... Morrgan is nothing if not practical. From her point of view what better end result could there be if she gets her way, and one person who would otherwise die gets to live. In Morrigan's world only a fool would refuse the chance to not die, especially when all they have to do is provide her with a small service. The easiest, most productive way to achieve her goal is to have a willing participant (which is why she asks)provide a small 'insignifacant' service. In return the participant gets to live rather than suffer certain death .... Who could refuse right?

Yet, much to Morrigan's surprise (and anger), refuse they do. Time for plan 'B'

It doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to think that someone who is a 'Witch Of The Wild', an experienced Mage steeped in ancient lore, and a daughter of Flemeth, would be more than capable of getting what they need from one of the Wardens, without the warden's knowing about it.... Perhaps while they sleep, perhaps another 'magical' method. It might be more difficult to do, more complicated, more risky, less efficient... but, plan 'A' is no longer an option. So ever practical Morrigan puts plan 'B' into effect.

But hang on... If Morrigan completes the ritual why does the Warden die?.... Again, from Morrigan's point of view, the wardens have made their choice. They 'foolishly' wish to be heros and take one for the team... how difficult would it be to add a small twist to the ritual that kills the warden instead of saving him/her. It might perhaps be something she doesn't like doing, but from a practical point of view... The warden's get their wish, everyone gets the result they expected, and no one questions why they are still alive when they said 'NO' to Morrigan.

I'm sure someone can pick some holes in that scenarion, but personally I find it quite a feasable one..... err, I think

[bleetman]

I'm not a huge fan of plot twists that serve to completely invalidate perfectly legitimate choices from previous games, myself. It sucks all the consequence out of the situation, regardless of whether you accepted or refused her offer.

[xkg]

willholt wrote...
It doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to think that someone who is a 'Witch Of The Wild', an experienced Mage steeped in ancient lore, and a daughter of Flemeth, would be more than capable of getting what they need from one of the Wardens, without the warden's knowing about it....

Correct me If I am wrong but I think there were only two wardens at the time of the battle - Alistair and The Warden

EDIT : Ahh ok now I see - without them knowing it - noticed it now - oh well nvm then.

Modifié par xkg, 20 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[Ryzaki]

willholt wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

  I mean, technically, it's impossible for the OGB to exist if a Warden died, but I guess it's not my story, so the writers can do whatever they want, right?

Why should should it be impossible for the OGB to exist if the Warden died... One being the case doesn't have to exclude the other.

I can think of at least one scenario in which the warden dies while killing the Archdemon, but Morrigan still gets her way and has the OGB.

How?

Well... Morrgan is nothing if not practical. From her point of view what better end result could there be if she gets her way, and one person who would otherwise die gets to live. In Morrigan's world only a fool would refuse the chance to not die, especially when all they have to do is provide her with a small service. The easiest, most productive way to achieve her goal is to have a willing participant (which is why she asks)provide a small 'insignifacant' service. In return the participant gets to live rather than suffer certain death .... Who could refuse right?

Yet, much to Morrigan's surprise (and anger), refuse they do. Time for plan 'B'

It doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to think that someone who is a 'Witch Of The Wild', an experienced Mage steeped in ancient lore, and a daughter of Flemeth, would be more than capable of getting what they need from one of the Wardens, without the warden's knowing about it.... Perhaps while they sleep, perhaps another 'magical' method. It might be more difficult to do, more complicated, more risky, less efficient... but, plan 'A' is no longer an option. So ever practical Morrigan puts plan 'B' into effect.

But hang on... If Morrigan completes the ritual why does the Warden die?.... Again, from Morrigan's point of view, the wardens have made their choice. They 'foolishly' wish to be heros and take one for the team... how difficult would it be to add a small twist to the ritual that kills the warden instead of saving him/her. It might perhaps be something she doesn't like doing, but from a practical point of view... The warden's get their wish, everyone gets the result they expected, and no one questions why they are still alive when they said 'NO' to Morrigan.

I'm sure someone can pick some holes in that scenarion, but personally I find it quite a feasable one..... err, I think

No Gaider said it doesn't exist if you didn't do it. 

I know some people love the DR. Stop trying to shove it down everyone's throat. Some of us couldn't give a damn about the OGB or Morrigan. 

Not to mention that's cheap and stupid and makes the fact that you can't attack her even more retarded. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 août 2011 - 04:52 .

[Travie]

Companion/origin/major villian....

Any of these things would make me happy, but the DA2 team wasn't what i'd call a 'bro' developer.

They will probably just kill it off.

[Xewaka]

What about those who performed the Ultimate Sacrifice or ordered Alistair/Loghain to meet the Maker?
That's why they can't properly deal with the Old God Baby. Because it doesn't exist in half the stories.

[willholt]

Xewaka wrote...

What about those who performed the Ultimate Sacrifice or ordered Alistair/Loghain to meet the Maker?
That's why they can't properly deal with the Old God Baby. Because it doesn't exist in half the stories.

My scenario above explains how it might be possible despite the US. In fact, the appearance of the US, and/or the Archdemon slayer dying is integral to it.

[Ryzaki]

Xewaka wrote...

What about those who performed the Ultimate Sacrifice or ordered Alistair/Loghain to meet the Maker?
That's why they can't properly deal with the Old God Baby. Because it doesn't exist in half the stories.

Exactly. If the OGB is honored and recongnized I want the same for the US/Redeemer/WC ending. 

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

What about those who performed the Ultimate Sacrifice or ordered Alistair/Loghain to meet the Maker?
That's why they can't properly deal with the Old God Baby. Because it doesn't exist in half the stories.

Exactly. If the OGB is honored and recongnized I want the same for the US/Redeemer/WC ending. 

Me too. Anything for more Simon Templeman...er....

That's not what you meant, is it?

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote.....

Me too. Anything for more Simon Templeman...er....

That's not what you meant, is it?

If he talks about the US that the warden made sure I don't care. He's dead in my game. *shrugs* 

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote.....

Me too. Anything for more Simon Templeman...er....

That's not what you meant, is it?

If he talks about the US that the warden made sure I don't care. He's dead in my game. *shrugs* 

Aw. This brings back memories of our debates.

But back on topic: I for one do NOT want the OGB to be canon. Yet I fail to see how this mess can be solved otherwise. Without creating an entirely different plot for those who refused the DR.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote.....

Me too. Anything for more Simon Templeman...er....

That's not what you meant, is it?

If he talks about the US that the warden made sure I don't care. He's dead in my game. *shrugs* 

Aw. This brings back memories of our debates.

But back on topic: I for one do NOT want the OGB to be canon. Yet I fail to see how this mess can be solved otherwise. Without creating an entirely different plot for those who refused the DR.

Like I said before, I think you're going to get your wish.  I strongly suspect (to the point of near certainty) that Bioware is going to kill off the OGB if it exists in your game at all.  That's because I think BW regrets making the OGB an option almost as soon as DAO hit the shelves.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

Morrigan's son could be made canon easily enough. Whether he's an OGB or not could be a variable to that. Say his powers are dormant if he is an OGB, until a major plot point in his story arc relying on that variable... etc.

I don't see how.  The problem is the scope of what DAO promises for the OGB.  The OGB is supposed to have the best traits of Morrigan and the Warden tied to an untainted soul of an Old God.  In short, he's supposed to be an earthshaking figure...a figure of destiny almost from the moment of conception.

The problem is that there are many (even most) DAO endings that don't result in an OGB.

Ergo, my conclusion that I think Bioware has concluded it's probably easier to kill him off and save everyone the grief of trying to reconcile it.

-Polaris