346 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
"I don't think having different PCs is the problem. It's just that
Bioware doesn't really have an idea of what they want to do with the
series itself. At least that's the feeling I'm getting.

The OGB
is a case in point. It's obviously important, and I highly believe they
won't be able to use it in a way that satisfies both sides. I think
they'll just end up tossing in a codex. They should've had Morrigan say
that just because you refused doesn't mean she'll give up. That she has
more arcane knowledge than you think. That with Flemeth's Grimoire she
has even more at her disposal. That she might just be able to find a way
to grab the Old God's soul even if you die, since the DR was just the
quickest way for her to grab it.

That way, it's unknown if you
died due to wartime injuries (explosion from the Archdemon, trauma, etc)
or if it was due to sharing a spiritual apartment with an Old God's
soul (I think I said that earlier in this thread). And then if they do
make the OGB canon, you at least had a hint in the past that just
because you said "No" doesn't mean the Old God's soul was gone. You
still have your heroic death, which really was the extent of the choice,
but you don't feel cheated."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How will they explain the warden been female and not accepting the DR? If Morrigan had performed the DR with any other male warden then why ask the female warden first place? are you sure loghain will bed her without the warden asking him to do so? he wants to die defending ferelden from any threat but he goes to bed with an apostate?  What about Riorden? wasn't riorden too old and close to his calling?
Will Alistair bed Morrigan by his own free will while in Love with the warden? he isn't that type of person.. zev yes, alistair? no, he is too insecure even after he is hardened he do NOT want to do it.
So can Morrigan get impregnated by her own?Are you sure Morrigan is female or hermaphrodite? lol!

I thought RPG gamers wanted things to make sense.. there goes DA sense:

This is why I do not like the multiple main character #$@#$ in every %^$# new game. It really F#$%$# up everything. /rage

What ever just remember there is NO CANON IN DA.

Question: If bioware get "morrigan child" thing going then they'll add the warden as well right? many players warden are with morrigan and the child.. arg this is too much..

Edit: I want to make clear none of myWarden's did the US, I just want to see what good explanation the players can come up with when the forum/rage about this.
Oh and I do not care if Loghain is alive in any new DA game it dosen't matter to me I play the game to have fun believe it or not. Still i do NOT like the "different character to every new game", and I wish hawke would remain the main character for future DA games, because s/he is not part of any group.

Modifié par Huntress, 20 août 2011 - 06:32 .

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

Morrigan's son could be made canon easily enough. Whether he's an OGB or not could be a variable to that. Say his powers are dormant if he is an OGB, until a major plot point in his story arc relying on that variable... etc.

I don't see how.  The problem is the scope of what DAO promises for the OGB.  The OGB is supposed to have the best traits of Morrigan and the Warden tied to an untainted soul of an Old God.  In short, he's supposed to be an earthshaking figure...a figure of destiny almost from the moment of conception.

The problem is that there are many (even most) DAO endings that don't result in an OGB.

Ergo, my conclusion that I think Bioware has concluded it's probably easier to kill him off and save everyone the grief of trying to reconcile it.

-Polaris

Sad but it rings true, Ian. Not that I doubt Bioware's storytelling abilities...but this is one gigantic mess they are in. Is that decision data based btw? As in: A very high percentage went for the DR? Because otherwise I do not see why they do not leave the OGB as a mystery. Then again, that too would disappoint those who adore Morri and want that part of her tale explored.

Ah, Bioware got caught in their own web, I'm afraid.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The link provided by the OP raises more questions. Other interesting info Fernando Melo slipped: "We will find out what happened to Hawke's companions in future content." and "Future content will see the same companions and love interests return." There is a lot of ground to cover, so that would mean several small DLCs or a big one - maybe an expansion? Although it's not impossible to squeeze the OGB in there, the content may become very crowded. Isabela's story is a bit tricky to handle, because her presence depends on the way you played. How did Varric end up being interrogated or could that be content for DA3? Does Merrill's mirror have any significance in such content? Will Fenris find his old master? Is Sebastian going to end up on a throne? Besides a relationship with a soldier there doesn't seem much going on with Aveline. I think Anders, Bethany and Carver don't need much resolving, though. And then we have the problem with Leliana. How is that promise going to fit in?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

You know, I think Bethany/Carver sets an interesting precedent that could be used in this situation. Two different companions, and you (mostly) only get one of them in a given playthrough. Skip ahead to future content. What if:

In an import where the Dark Ritual was performed, at some point the player is given Morrigan's son, now grown, as a companion. In an import where the DR was not done, the player is given an alternate companion. Say, a grey warden who was inspired by the sacrifice of the Hero of Ferelden/Alistair/Loghain.

I'm sure others have already thought of this, but given the Bethany/Carver situation, it seems a decent way to handle things, I think.

[Brockololly]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

You know, I think Bethany/Carver sets an interesting precedent that could be used in this situation. Two different companions, and you (mostly) only get one of them in a given playthrough. Skip ahead to future content. What if:

In an import where the Dark Ritual was performed, at some point the player is given Morrigan's son, now grown, as a companion. In an import where the DR was not done, the player is given an alternate companion. Say, a grey warden who was inspired by the sacrifice of the Hero of Ferelden/Alistair/Loghain.

I'm sure others have already thought of this, but given the Bethany/Carver situation, it seems a decent way to handle things, I think.

My problem with that sort of thing is that even in Legacy a great deal of Warden Bethany/Carver's dialogue is entirely interchangeable. Same thing with how BioWare handled Ashley/Kaiden in ME2- they're simply different character models and voice actors saying the same thing.

I'd much rather BioWare try to do something a la The Witcher 2 where you don't simply see 2 characters like Ash/Kaiden stuck with the same dialogue but more like Roche/Iorveth where that choice leads to experiencing vastly different plotlines and different characters.


As for the OGB, even if he wasn't a companion, depending on his role in the story, it might be cool for instance to hear of stories from some other part of Thedas of some teenager/child thats gathering a following- almost like an Andraste type except he'd advocate the Old Gods or something. And maybe toss in some allusions to Morrigan or the Warden as parents or something.  Problem there would be whether the Warden would necessarily stick around in that instance since we have no idea what Morrigan is planning as of yet.

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

You know, I think Bethany/Carver sets an interesting precedent that could be used in this situation. Two different companions, and you (mostly) only get one of them in a given playthrough. Skip ahead to future content. What if:

In an import where the Dark Ritual was performed, at some point the player is given Morrigan's son, now grown, as a companion. In an import where the DR was not done, the player is given an alternate companion. Say, a grey warden who was inspired by the sacrifice of the Hero of Ferelden/Alistair/Loghain.

I'm sure others have already thought of this, but given the Bethany/Carver situation, it seems a decent way to handle things, I think.

My problem with that sort of thing is that even in Legacy a great deal of Warden Bethany/Carver's dialogue is entirely interchangeable. Same thing with how BioWare handled Ashley/Kaiden in ME2- they're simply different character models and voice actors saying the same thing.

I'd much rather BioWare try to do something a la The Witcher 2 where you don't simply see 2 characters like Ash/Kaiden stuck with the same dialogue but more like Roche/Iorveth where that choice leads to experiencing vastly different plotlines and different characters.

For once, I agree with Brock. 

EDIT: That being said, I do like the idea presented by the above poster, of having different companions based on the choice. Just try to make their roles a bit more different.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 août 2011 - 06:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
I'd much rather BioWare try to do something a la The Witcher 2 where you don't simply see 2 characters like Ash/Kaiden stuck with the same dialogue but more like Roche/Iorveth where that choice leads to experiencing vastly different plotlines and different characters.

The problem with that is TW2's choice was in-game. Bioware making two vastly different experiences based on import sounds unlikely. Many people apparently don't finish the game the first time, let alone play a second time, and many people didn't have the DR. So I think they will see this as a waste of ressources.

They will do what I think they will do with the Collector Base. Create a situation where it doesn't matter.

So maybe I'd prefer if Morrigan and the OGB stayed in the dark as an ambigious mystery.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't see how.  The problem is the scope of what DAO promises for the OGB.  The OGB is supposed to have the best traits of Morrigan and the Warden tied to an untainted soul of an Old God.  In short, he's supposed to be an earthshaking figure...a figure of destiny almost from the moment of conception.

-Polaris

 Witch Hunt already made it look like the OGB is not that big of a deal. Sure Morrigan is pissed but she got over it and is still doing whatever it is she is doing.

I suspect the OGB will be made even more irrelevent in the future, should they take the "small codices / dialogue / insignificant cameo" approach.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 06:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
EDIT: That being said, I do like the idea presented by the above poster, of having different companions based on the choice. Just try to make their roles a bit more different.

My problem with that is that there is the risk of making him unimportant, to make the PC look important.

So if they can bring the OGB as a companion, I'd prefer if he was an Anders like companion. Who does his own thing and is not overshadowed by the PC (just make him more intelligent please). More than Anders in fact, for he becomes that way in Act 3. It's something they should expand upon.

The problem is, will they create that much content for a companion not everyone will experience in the first run?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Huntress wrote...

 Still i do NOT like the "different character to every new game", and I wish hawke would remain the main character for future DA games, because s/he is not part of any group.

One problem with that is it will put me off buying anymore DA games, I do not like Hawke one bit. DA2 saw to that. Any future title as opposed to DLC that contains Hawke a person I grew to dislike a great deal ends up being MP will put me off buying it. It's one of the biggest things that can put people off, being forced to play as someone they dislike.

For that simple reason I am glad new protaganist for each title is something I approve of because whatever negative feelings towards a character will not be present if that character is not forced upon you to play as again. Even if it means sacrificing my warden re-appearing in the future.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[TEWR]

Huntress wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
"I don't think having different PCs is the problem. It's just that
Bioware doesn't really have an idea of what they want to do with the
series itself. At least that's the feeling I'm getting.

The OGB
is a case in point. It's obviously important, and I highly believe they
won't be able to use it in a way that satisfies both sides. I think
they'll just end up tossing in a codex. They should've had Morrigan say
that just because you refused doesn't mean she'll give up. That she has
more arcane knowledge than you think. That with Flemeth's Grimoire she
has even more at her disposal. That she might just be able to find a way
to grab the Old God's soul even if you die, since the DR was just the
quickest way for her to grab it.

That way, it's unknown if you
died due to wartime injuries (explosion from the Archdemon, trauma, etc)
or if it was due to sharing a spiritual apartment with an Old God's
soul (I think I said that earlier in this thread). And then if they do
make the OGB canon, you at least had a hint in the past that just
because you said "No" doesn't mean the Old God's soul was gone. You
still have your heroic death, which really was the extent of the choice,
but you don't feel cheated."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How will they explain the warden been female and not accepting the DR? If Morrigan had performed the DR with any other male warden then why ask the female warden first place? are you sure loghain will bed her without the warden asking him to do so? he wants to die defending ferelden from any threat but he goes to bed with an apostate?  What about Riorden? wasn't riorden too old and close to his calling?
Will Alistair bed Morrigan by his own free will while in Love with the warden? he isn't that type of person.. zev yes, alistair? no, he is too insecure even after he is hardened he do NOT want to do it.
So can Morrigan get impregnated by her own?Are you sure Morrigan is female or hermaphrodite? lol!

I thought RPG gamers wanted things to make sense.. there goes DA sense

This is why I do not like the multiple main character #$@#$ in every %^$# new game. It really F#$%$# up everything. /rage

What ever just remember there is NO CANON IN DA.

Question: If bioware get "morrigan child" thing going then they'll add the warden as well right? many players warden are with morrigan and the child.. arg this is too much..

Edit: I want to make clear none of myWarden's did the US, I just want to see what good explanation the players can come up with when the forum/rage about this.
Oh and I do not care if Loghain is alive in any new DA game it dosen't matter to me I play the game to have fun believe it or not. Still i do NOT like the "different character to every new game", and I wish hawke would remain the main character for future DA games, because s/he is not part of any group.

That wasn't my point Huntress. My point was that Morrigan should've established that having sex with a Male Warden before the battle wasn't the only way to get the Old God's soul, just the quickest and easiest. That even if you "destroy" the Old God's soul, it's only temporary as it travels somewhere else (perhaps to a different dimension. Perhaps to where all Thedosian souls travel.), and she could use a different ritual to draw the soul to a child she conceived after she left the party and after the Warden died.

Alistair, Loghain, Riordan and the Warden aren't the only Wardens in the world, nor are they the only men in the world. And Flemeth raised Morrigan. Add into that Flemeth's Grimoire and there are bound to be forgotten arcane spells at Morrigan's disposal.

And.... I would never go for that money....

[TEWR]

Brockololly wrote...

[Well, I;m ok with only romancing Wardens being able to go since it would seem predicated on the possibility of Morrigan having a child and the PC being the father, Old God baby or normal. Thats actually a nice consequence to the choice of romancing Morrigan that provides some divergence and reactivity. Conversely, those Wardens that stay behind get that book or gift or whatever it is and Morrigan insinuates that the Warden that stays behind might have some role to play in the future.

The Warden vanishing aspect works if you went through the Eluvian. But even then you have Alistair in DA2 mucking it up with his line about the Hero of Ferelden returning to Denerim. So did the Warden really disappear or not?

True. I guess it is fair that only Morrigan romancers could go through, but Morrigan should've hinted that if the Warden still wanted to join her later on, then the Warden should keep those books handy and follow them. Then, Morrigan would talk to the Warden about it.

It still sets up the whole disappearing thing that Cassandra talks about as a possibility.

As for Alistair and Teagan, I like to think they only said that because it's a clever political maneuver. The implications the Warden's disappearance might have would probably be bad for Ferelden. If they keep up the image that he is still around, then perhaps they can avoid anything bad.

Or the Warden and Morrigan returned with the OGB and are living in Denerim.

I always thought it would have been interesting if the Warden PC's standing or relationship with Morrigan would influence in part how the OGB's attitude toward things developed or if the Warden was the father, then the PC could influence the OGB as well.

But much of the problem in splitting the player from the Warden PC with Morrigan/OGB/DR related developments is that even if your Warden trusts Morrigan enough to go through the Eluvian, we still have no clue what she is up to. So maybe your Warden went through the Eluvian but once there totally disagrees with what Morrigan is up to. But I have the feeling should the Warden/Morrigan ever show up again, the Warden will likely just be a lacky for whatever Morrigan is doing. Which would be a shame when I thought what made that relationship interesting was how the Warden could change Morrigan's attitude and at least cause her to question her beliefs at times.

I guess it depends on what Morrigan's intentions are and what exactly was on the other side. Perhaps underneath Morrigan's exterior is a good and kind-hearted person who doesn't want anything evil or bad.

And I'd prefer that if the Warden reappeared with Morrigan, it was as equals.

And you could get her to question her beliefs? Maybe I missed something in DAO.

[phaonica]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

You know, I think Bethany/Carver sets an interesting precedent that could be used in this situation. Two different companions, and you (mostly) only get one of them in a given playthrough. Skip ahead to future content. What if:

In an import where the Dark Ritual was performed, at some point the player is given Morrigan's son, now grown, as a companion. In an import where the DR was not done, the player is given an alternate companion. Say, a grey warden who was inspired by the sacrifice of the Hero of Ferelden/Alistair/Loghain.

I'm sure others have already thought of this, but given the Bethany/Carver situation, it seems a decent way to handle things, I think.

I agree with this solution. For me, the OGB does not have to be epically significant and intertwined with whatever the main conflict in future DA games is. I currently can't think of what manner of companion would do a US playthrough justice, but it could probably be done.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

I also like that solution. If we want to sit here and give reasons why something cannot be done, we will be sitting here until DA3 is upon us.

For the record, I hope I'm wrong.  I hope Bioware does come up with something brilliant with the OGB that satisfies everyone.  That said, I don't see it happening.  It seems simplier (and most cost efficient) simply to kill off the OGB and that's why I think that's what BW will do (not that I'd agree with it).

-Polaris

[Maconbar]

Based on all the wailing and teeth gnashing, I can only conclude that resolving the divergent plot lines related to the DR/US decision must be the most complex thing that mankind has ever faced.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

I also like that solution. If we want to sit here and give reasons why something cannot be done, we will be sitting here until DA3 is upon us.

Not a question of ability, but of will. Is Bioware willing to spend the ressources necessary on it to make it good?

I highly doubt it. But I of course hope they can prove me wrong, in this and many other things.

[phaonica]

Filament wrote...

I also like that solution. If we want to sit here and give reasons why something cannot be done, we will be sitting here until DA3 is upon us.

I agree. I'd rather simply accept the restrictions that game mechanics and time have created and try to work with that, rather than to dwell on what could have been and say that it's too late.

[willholt]

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

I also like that solution. If we want to sit here and give reasons why something cannot be done, we will be sitting here until DA3 is upon us.

For the record, I hope I'm wrong.  I hope Bioware does come up with something brilliant with the OGB that satisfies everyone.  That said, I don't see it happening.  It seems simplier (and most cost efficient) simply to kill off the OGB and that's why I think that's what BW will do (not that I'd agree with it).

-Polaris

I could have sworn the possible solution I gave a coouple of pages back was quite a reasonable one ... but it seems to have been totally ignored, so I guess not.

I'll get my coat! 

[IanPolaris]

willholt wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

I also like that solution. If we want to sit here and give reasons why something cannot be done, we will be sitting here until DA3 is upon us.

For the record, I hope I'm wrong.  I hope Bioware does come up with something brilliant with the OGB that satisfies everyone.  That said, I don't see it happening.  It seems simplier (and most cost efficient) simply to kill off the OGB and that's why I think that's what BW will do (not that I'd agree with it).

-Polaris

I could have sworn the possible solution I gave a coouple of pages back was quite a reasonable one ... but it seems to have been totally ignored, so I guess not.

I'll get my coat! 

I don't think it's workable within the time and budget that Bioware is likely to have.  If I'm wrong on this point, I'll be happily wrong.  Right now I am skeptical.

-Polaris

[Huntress]

"And you could get her to question her beliefs? Maybe I missed something in DAO."

You did

She didn't believe she'll find a friend or to fall in love with the warden!, she called my warden "sister", friend.., that shows that morrigan did change, but some forget morrigan has a JOB to do and has nothing to do with the warden.. is having an old dragon soul back in the world.

I like Morrigan, not sure how bioware is going to come up bringing her back without making the forum explode with rage lol... So many players do not want the warden back.. I wouldn't mind it but.. can she talk this time? please? lol And bring Hawke aswell! I like hawke!!!

And another thing that player are missing or trying to forget is: how to make the warden not betray what the Order stand forth?

The grey warden's are neutral, how can the warden be part of mage-templar revolution without making Thedas angry with the Order? I don't see that happening, the order need people and because of them been neutral they are allowed everywere.

Let me add that even if you transfer from origens to whatever game they are making, the conflict from DA2 will continue and already spreed throughtout Thedas.

[willholt]

Filament wrote...

willholt wrote...

I could have sworn the possible solution I gave a coouple of pages back was quite a reasonable one ... but it seems to have been totally ignored, so I guess not.

I'll get my coat! 

Morrigan having a plan B ritual that kills the Warden... I suppose it wouldn't as annoying as the Warden arbitrarily dying of head trauma for the ultimate sacrifice, but it still wouldn't be ideal, IMO.

What I was trying to get at was that Morrigan having intercourse with your Warden (or Alistair) isn't necessarily the only way for her to get what she needs. Someone with her skills could probably have found an alternative. It might be the easiest most convenient way, but not necessarily the only one.

That being the case, her doing the ritual in secret, and the warden (or Alistair) then surviving the  encounter with the Archdemon - an encounter which should have killed them - would be a dead giveaway to those she initially approached in Redcliffe. Hence the additional component to the ritual that ends the warden's life.

The warden dying also doesn't necessarily have to be an 'addition' to the ritual, it could be the result of removing or changing one of the components of the ritual.

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And you could get her to question her beliefs? Maybe I missed something in DAO.

The best example is a high approval or romanced Morrigan sides with the mages instead of templars in "Broken Circle". Otherwise she usually advocates having the Circle annulled because they're "too weak".