346 réponses à ce sujet

[Chaos Lord Malek]

If we would completely ignore the fact that Morrigan has passed through some portal/mirror/gateway into some kind of different dimension or time, i would expect that OGB could be an NPC character we either interact as questgiver(something in Flemeth style maybe) or even party member.

Since the "OGB" happens no matter what choice you made during Redcliff night(even if you decline the ritual Morrigan still become pregnant), they could make Morrigan son a NPC companion, who's dialogues could be altered based on who was his father - Alistair, Warden, Loghain, or someone else.

He should be about 10 years old by the time of Varric interrogation by Cassandra, so if DA 3 takes at least 3-5 years later after that it should`t be a problem. 14-15 year old were many times already married in medieval ages, so having even a 'kid' in a party should`t be a problem.

Though i personally don`t like stories and games revolving around children(Harry Potter and Golden Compass for example), he could fill in role of a *wonder kid*.

Still - there is that problem of passing through that stupid mirror. In my opinion the Morrigan is Flemeth in future which through the mirror comes to the past - thus creating and infinite loop, a paradox. That would explain why Flemeth knows everything that's going to happen up until now, and would explain her responses to Hawke when asked about Morrigan at the Sundermountain.

I would have expected that her kid(OGB) would be the one that creates Grey Wardens back in the past, because nobody said how the GW were created - you just don`t happen to start drinking blood of zombies thinking that it would help you kill them, you know. So someone had to 'invent' the Grey Wardens and drinking of blighted blood, someone who knew how the blight worked, what's the Archdemon even - you would`t think that the blight started and Chantry priests instantly knew its Archdemon leading them. At first, probably no one even knew what the blight is , let alone knew that dragon god is leading it- Dumat, the god of silence.

[Atakuma]

Just kill the damn thing. I can't express how much I dislike that contrived plot device.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
EDIT: That being said, I do like the idea presented by the above poster, of having different companions based on the choice. Just try to make their roles a bit more different.

My problem with that is that there is the risk of making him unimportant, to make the PC look important.

So if they can bring the OGB as a companion, I'd prefer if he was an Anders like companion. Who does his own thing and is not overshadowed by the PC (just make him more intelligent please). More than Anders in fact, for he becomes that way in Act 3. It's something they should expand upon.

The problem is, will they create that much content for a companion not everyone will experience in the first run?

I can understand that concern. I'm really not sure as to how important the OGB will be. Given how Morrigan's important business can go on without it, I doubt he will be too crucial.

Nonetheless, having him play a role like Anders would be a good idea. Perhaps the alternative companion won't be able to offer a solution the OGB could, or the OGB will at least offer a lot of insight into the developments of the game.

As for the content question, I'm not sure. Bethany and Carver had a lot of unique dialogues, which ended up being quite a bit of content not visible by many of their first run, but in terms of story altering content there was little, which is what the OGB should have.

[hoorayforicecream]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
EDIT: That being said, I do like the idea presented by the above poster, of having different companions based on the choice. Just try to make their roles a bit more different.

My problem with that is that there is the risk of making him unimportant, to make the PC look important.

So if they can bring the OGB as a companion, I'd prefer if he was an Anders like companion. Who does his own thing and is not overshadowed by the PC (just make him more intelligent please). More than Anders in fact, for he becomes that way in Act 3. It's something they should expand upon.

The problem is, will they create that much content for a companion not everyone will experience in the first run?

I can understand that concern. I'm really not sure as to how important the OGB will be. Given how Morrigan's important business can go on without it, I doubt he will be too crucial.

Nonetheless, having him play a role like Anders would be a good idea. Perhaps the alternative companion won't be able to offer a solution the OGB could, or the OGB will at least offer a lot of insight into the developments of the game.

As for the content question, I'm not sure. Bethany and Carver had a lot of unique dialogues, which ended up being quite a bit of content not visible by many of their first run, but in terms of story altering content there was little, which is what the OGB should have.

Actually, I look at how they handled Feynriel as a pretty good example of handling a character with powers far beyond the player's. Feynriel's got the super duper dreamer powers and can potentially shape the fade to his will. But as the player, we get to shape what path he takes without him overshadowing. He's still learning to use his powers, and the player takes a mentorship-type role.

[Zjarcal]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Actually, I look at how they handled Feynriel as a pretty good example of handling a character with powers far beyond the player's. Feynriel's got the super duper dreamer powers and can potentially shape the fade to his will. But as the player, we get to shape what path he takes without him overshadowing. He's still learning to use his powers, and the player takes a mentorship-type role.

I would like something like that (though with more development of course). You can bet Brockololly wouldn't though, since it wouldn't involve the warden. 

Unless they bring back the warden just for that...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 août 2011 - 09:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
I can understand that concern. I'm really not sure as to how important the OGB will be. Given how Morrigan's important business can go on without it, I doubt he will be too crucial.

Nonetheless, having him play a role like Anders would be a good idea. Perhaps the alternative companion won't be able to offer a solution the OGB could, or the OGB will at least offer a lot of insight into the developments of the game.

As for the content question, I'm not sure. Bethany and Carver had a lot of unique dialogues, which ended up being quite a bit of content not visible by many of their first run, but in terms of story altering content there was little, which is what the OGB should have.

Actually, I look at how they handled Feynriel as a pretty good example of handling a character with powers far beyond the player's. Feynriel's got the super duper dreamer powers and can potentially shape the fade to his will. But as the player, we get to shape what path he takes without him overshadowing. He's still learning to use his powers, and the player takes a mentorship-type role.

That was indeed the example I had in mind (One of the few things I like about this game is Feynriel). However Feynriel is an NPC, and ultimately the choices we have with regards to him do not have significant consequences in the game. So I'd defnitely use Feynriel as a template, but it needs to be exanded upon, imo.

As a companion, I think he should be plot centric or at the very least plot relevent. Also, I personally dislike the fact that you can just use him as will for useless errands. You can do that with Aveline when she is supposed to be very busy being captain, and I dislike that. Which is why I am in full support of what ME3 seems to be doing. In that there is no big permanent cast, many companions are avaiable only when it makes sense for them to be available. This is something I'd prefer for the OGB. Now of course we need character development for him, but I don't think it's necessary to have him fight alongside us in things that are irrelevent to him, to do that.

And if Feynriel is to be used as model, than I think consequences of "guiding" the OGB should be present in a more material way. Not 180 degree differences, that makes the OGB look very maleable, which is not desirable imo. 

The problem with that though, is that it's Morrigan who is supposed to be doing the guiding, and I'd much rather have the Warden do it. But I guess I can look past that if it's done well.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 09:55 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Actually, I look at how they handled Feynriel as a pretty good example of handling a character with powers far beyond the player's. Feynriel's got the super duper dreamer powers and can potentially shape the fade to his will. But as the player, we get to shape what path he takes without him overshadowing. He's still learning to use his powers, and the player takes a mentorship-type role.

I would like something like that (though with more development of course). You can bet Brockololly wouldn't though, since it wouldn't involve the warden. 

Unless they bring back the warden just for that...

Well, I'd hope that they spend more time developing if he's a follower. Feynriel is like two and a half quests (I heard that the broken quest in Act 3 was supposed to have to do with Feynriel too, but I don't think I ever go around to doing it after it was fixed), while the followers each have a lot more character development. But yeah, that'd be the kind of role I would expect to see the OGB take (should the OGB actually be a companion).

I could also see it as a save import type quest deal like Feynriel's, where the new PC helps him decide what to do with his life, or possibly even end it. I wonder if the OGB would drop torn trousers if killed?

[Apollo Starflare]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

 I don't think anyone wants it, "resolved." I want it to be explored!!!!!!

Definitely this. Although with the caveat of 'yet'. I'd be happy to have it explored and resolved in the space of a game, so long as resolved doesn't boil down to 'it dies'.

Dave of Canada wrote...

 Funny how things work.

People
complain there's never going to be OGB resolution, how Gaider hates
Morrigan fans, ect. That is, until they announce they'll resolve it.
Then people laugh it off.

Make up your minds, people.

I was thinking the same thing. Until BioWare announce more details on DA3 and the Warden's involvement I don't see why the community's immediate reaction to news such as this should be pessimistic. I mean, this is what we want (supposedly)! A continuance of the underlying plot which is still loosely tying the series together. The announcement that BioWare haven't forgotten about it, and in fact haven't flinched away from tackling it should be cheered not jeered.

If they announce it'll be a throwaway line in a codex entry then sure, I'll be annoyed. But do people honestly think that'll happen here? That it would be getting talked about years prior to DA3's release? Despite an almost complete lack on info about the game otherwise? People worrying about it being relegated to a side quest I could just about understand, but a codex entry? They could have fit that into DA2 any time they wanted if that were the case.

This is the result of one of the most enduring and memorable decisions from Origins, whether you accepted it or not. BioWare aren't as clueless as some people are eager to paint them as, certainly not in the plot department, and I would be much more surprised if this doesn't get given a decent amount of attention in the next game.

I must admit though, whilst I don't believe they would have left it in the game in the way it was if it were to prove impossible to deal with later on, it does remind me of the odd choice of allowing Anders to have multiple endings in Awakening despite his involvement in DA2 (which surely must have been mooted at some point around that time?) and Leliana's 'death' scene which has since proven problematic. It wouldn't surprise me if some similar rewriting of history has to take place to make it work, although I hope not and would be very pleasantly surprised to see some great ramifications of choosing the US over the DR during the same 'OGB' content.

[Brockololly]

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Actually, I look at how they handled Feynriel as a pretty good example of handling a character with powers far beyond the player's. Feynriel's got the super duper dreamer powers and can potentially shape the fade to his will. But as the player, we get to shape what path he takes without him overshadowing. He's still learning to use his powers, and the player takes a mentorship-type role.

I would like something like that (though with more development of course). You can bet Brockololly wouldn't though, since it wouldn't involve the warden. 

Unless they bring back the warden just for that...

Thats more or less how I would like the Warden and Morrigan to be able to influence the OGB if the Warden was the father. Be able to influence or parent the kid and influence his views or outlook on the world to a certain extent. Or if the OGB was a playable character, when questioned, the player could fill in the blanks appropriately without having BioWare hijack player's Warden PCs.

I wouldn't necessarily want some random ass new Epic Hero of Thedas doing that though without some solid rationale. Considering any possible OGB is likely growing up with Morrigan and a possible Warden dad in Eluvian Land, I'm guessing they'd be influential people in his development.  The whole mentorship type role is what Morrigan essentially outlines in Witch Hunt when she says she's going through the Eluvian to train the OGB for what is to come and all that.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And if Feynriel is to be used as model, than I think consequences off "guiding" the OGB should be present in a more material way. Not 180 degree differences, that makes the OGB look very maleable, which is not desirable imo. 

The problem with that though, is that it's Morrigan who is supposed to be doing the guiding, and I'd much rather have the Warden do it. But I guess I can look past that if it's done well.

There's nothing wrong with making a young person malleable. That's a large part of being young and being mentored. Besides, if they needed to open the way for a mentor and guide, they could always just kill Morrigan off. I'm reminded of a quote from a movie regarding a similar situation.

Metatron said...

Yes, I had to tell him. And you can imagine how that hurt the Father - not to be able to tell the Son Himself because one word from His lips would destroy the boy's frail human form? So I was forced to deliver the news to a scared child who wanted nothing more than to play with other children. I had to tell this little boy that He was God's only Son, and that it meant a life of persecution and eventual crucifixion at the hands of the very people He came to enlighten and redeem. He begged me to take it back, as if I could. He begged me to make it all not true. And I'll let you in on something, Bethany, this is something I've never told anyone before... If I had the power, I would have.

At its root, I would like to see the OGB being young and human, and that means being malleable and emotional.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
Thats more or less how I would like the Warden and Morrigan to be able to influence the OGB if the Warden was the father. Be able to influence or parent the kid and influence his views or outlook on the world to a certain extent. Or if the OGB was a playable character, when questioned, the player could fill in the blanks appropriately without having BioWare hijack player's Warden PCs.

Something like Geralt guiding Alvin?
That entire plot was just...powerful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
There's nothing wrong with making a young person malleable. That's a large part of being young and being mentored. Besides, if they needed to open the way for a mentor and guide, they could always just kill Morrigan off. I'm reminded of a quote from a movie regarding a similar situation.

They are not going to kill Morrigan for something that had 1/2 chance of not happening. Unless they canonize, which is unlikely to happen.

It depends on how young he is. Too malleable would turn him into a weak character, imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 09:58 .

[nitefyre410]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And if Feynriel is to be used as model, than I think consequences off "guiding" the OGB should be present in a more material way. Not 180 degree differences, that makes the OGB look very maleable, which is not desirable imo. 

The problem with that though, is that it's Morrigan who is supposed to be doing the guiding, and I'd much rather have the Warden do it. But I guess I can look past that if it's done well.

There's nothing wrong with making a young person malleable. That's a large part of being young and being mentored. Besides, if they needed to open the way for a mentor and guide, they could always just kill Morrigan off. I'm reminded of a quote from a movie regarding a similar situation.

Metatron said...

Yes, I had to tell him. And you can imagine how that hurt the Father - not to be able to tell the Son Himself because one word from His lips would destroy the boy's frail human form? So I was forced to deliver the news to a scared child who wanted nothing more than to play with other children. I had to tell this little boy that He was God's only Son, and that it meant a life of persecution and eventual crucifixion at the hands of the very people He came to enlighten and redeem. He begged me to take it back, as if I could. He begged me to make it all not true. And I'll let you in on something, Bethany, this is something I've never told anyone before... If I had the power, I would have.

At its root, I would like to see the OGB being young and human, and that means being malleable and emotional.

 

+15  for the  Dogma  reference

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
There's nothing wrong with making a young person malleable. That's a large part of being young and being mentored. Besides, if they needed to open the way for a mentor and guide, they could always just kill Morrigan off. I'm reminded of a quote from a movie regarding a similar situation.

They are not going to kill Morrigan for something that had 1/2 chance of not happening. Unless they canonize, which is unlikely to happen.

It depends on how young he is. Too malleable would turn him into a weak character, imo.

There's nothing wrong with a weak character, unless you mean weak as in bad characterization. That would just come down to execution, though.

Also, they could kill Morrigan for other plot-related purposes.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 20 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
There's nothing wrong with a weak character, unless you mean weak as in bad characterization. That would just come down to execution, though.

Also, they could kill Morrigan for other plot-related purposes.

Weak as in both. Weak person and weak character.
The former is more me being attached to my Warden's son, that I don't want him to be weak though.
A character who is *too* malleable, is also a weak character imo.

Yes I guess they could kill her off, but they keep saying how important she is, that I doubt it's going to happen soon. Maybe later.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 10:11 .

[naledgeborn]

Morrigan and the Warden? Death by Templar? These are the vanquishers of the 5th Blight we're talking about here. That seems almost ridiculous. But in a world where people can shoot fireballs from their hands I suppose anything is possible.

[Brockololly]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
 It wouldn't surprise me if some similar rewriting of history has to take place to make it work, although I hope not and would be very pleasantly surprised to see some great ramifications of choosing the US over the DR during the same 'OGB' content.

I'd be all for that too- having unique content involving the OGB if you went DR route and if you didn't then certain things are entirely different due to his absence and maybe how that affected whatever Morrigan is doing. Thats just as potentially interesting I think- kind of "Its a Wonderful Life" scenario, except substitute Jimmy Stewart with the OGB:lol:

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Something like Geralt guiding Alvin?
That entire plot was just...powerful.

Thats pretty much what I was thinking, actually.

And just because he's presumably a child around 10 or so at the end of DA2 doesn't mean he can't be a badass or a weakling. I'm not saying he has to have super powers or anything but just look at something like Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire for badass young characters in a gritty fantasy setting. Arya Stark or Bran or Jon Snow are all pretty badass despite being at most teenagers or even younger than 10.

Filament wrote...
I certainly don't want to play as the OGB and have a conversation with the Warden like that, though. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]
That reminds me of how I'd hold the white ranger dude in one hand and a T-rex in the other hand and have them say a few things back and forth,  then hit their heads against each other a few times...

Haha, no, thats not what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines if the OGB was the player character and the Warden was not around for whatever reason. So whether the PC was talking to Mom Morrigan or some other new character was asking the OGB about their father, the player (who knows how they played their Warden as) would be able to more accurately fill in the blanks as to the Warden than BioWare likely could do. That way if you had wanted your Warden to be a harsh guy who was all business or a loveable goof of a parent, the player playing as the OGB would be able to RP it appropriately.

Filament wrote...

Genghis Khan died of a nosebleed or
something. That someone once achieved impressive feats doesn't mean they
can't be brought low by a surprise attack, poison, etc.

Rocks. Falling rocks. Thats how all great heroes meet their end. Rocks fall. Everybody dies.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

How would this scenario work out?

Protagonist #3 stumbles upon Morrigan (maybe the Warden) and the child, Protagonist 3 wonders who they are and they state they shouldn't have been found where they are. Flemeth shows up, having followed Protagonist #3 and goes "My, my. What have we here?" again and there's a fight between Morrigan / Flemeth (and maybe the Warden).

Protagonist #3 has no idea what's going on and is caught in the crossfire, he manages to escape the battlefield but the child was scared (he's 10~ish, give him credit) and followed him/her. Protagonist #3 can't shake off the kid and has to take him with him/her, as he/she doesn't want to return to the conflict.

Back at home, you're raising the child. He brings up how he's been raised by Morrigan (and the Warden maybe), you're capable of having conversations with him and influence him with different viewpoints of the world (as Morrigan / Warden would be extremely limited).

You'd never hear about the godhood, you'd never know anything about the destiny awaiting him. He's simply a kid you're influencing, this way you can have two choices handled: Non-God Child has the same dialogue and everything, you're just not influencing a god. God Child is different because you're influencing a god, maybe he can mention how much his mother mentions his destiny (which leaves the protagonist further confused).

Near the end, you encounter Morrigan and maybe the Warden (depending on choice) once again and you experience the results of your influence on the child for the months you possibly kept him in your custody.

Non-God Child would have the least consequences, of course. Though the God Child, if influenced greatly, could create some big **** and Morrigan can be pleased with the protagonist or possibly be like "WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO? YOU RUINED EVERYTHING!!!11".

[naledgeborn]

Brockololly wrote...

Haha, no, thats not what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines if the OGB was the player character and the Warden was not around for whatever reason. So whether the PC was talking to Mom Morrigan or some other new character was asking the OGB about their father, the player (who knows how they played their Warden as) would be able to more accurately fill in the blanks as to the Warden than BioWare likely could do. That way if you had wanted your Warden to be a harsh guy who was all business or a loveable goof of a parent, the player playing as the OGB would be able to RP it appropriately.

Yes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
And just because he's presumably a child around 10 or so at the end of DA2 doesn't mean he can't be a badass or a weakling. I'm not saying he has to have super powers or anything but just look at something like Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire for badass young characters in a gritty fantasy setting. Arya Stark or Bran or Jon Snow are all pretty badass despite being at most teenagers or even younger than 10.

Exactly, agreed. Even Alvin was not that malleable (granted, Geralt was also a poor father figure). He had a more or less established character, and you can see from various comments and his own behavior that he is capable of greatness.

Aria is definitely another great example. She pretty much goes against what society expects her to be, at 10. Yes she recieved encouragement from Snow and later on Ned, but that desire was always there.

So yes, I prefer if the OGB was a strong character and person, even when young. Can and should be influenced by the people around him. But not fundamentally malleable in every aspect. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 août 2011 - 10:28 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How would this scenario work out?

Protagonist #3 stumbles upon Morrigan (maybe the Warden) and the child, Protagonist 3 wonders who they are and they state they shouldn't have been found where they are. Flemeth shows up, having followed Protagonist #3 and goes "My, my. What have we here?" again and there's a fight between Morrigan / Flemeth (and maybe the Warden).

Protagonist #3 has no idea what's going on and is caught in the crossfire, he manages to escape the battlefield but the child was scared (he's 10~ish, give him credit) and followed him/her. Protagonist #3 can't shake off the kid and has to take him with him/her, as he/she doesn't want to return to the conflict.

Back at home, you're raising the child. He brings up how he's been raised by Morrigan (and the Warden maybe), you're capable of having conversations with him and influence him with different viewpoints of the world (as Morrigan / Warden would be extremely limited).

You'd never hear about the godhood, you'd never know anything about the destiny awaiting him. He's simply a kid you're influencing, this way you can have two choices handled: Non-God Child has the same dialogue and everything, you're just not influencing a god. God Child is different because you're influencing a god, maybe he can mention how much his mother mentions his destiny (which leaves the protagonist further confused).

Near the end, you encounter Morrigan and maybe the Warden (depending on choice) once again and you experience the results of your influence on the child for the months you possibly kept him in your custody.

Non-God Child would have the least consequences, of course. Though the God Child, if influenced greatly, could create some big **** and Morrigan can be pleased with the protagonist or possibly be like "WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO? YOU RUINED EVERYTHING!!!11".

I could get behind this, so long as the kid shows traits of being a strong character even at the age of 10.