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[Gervaise]

Orsino could have studied blood magic without using it. Since he passed the books to Quentin that the latter used in his experiments and knew what was in them, he clearly had some knowledge of blood magic and necromancy. In fact it would seem that Quentin was keeping him appraised of his progress and Orsino seemed to have no problem with that fact. If anything, Orsino wasn't using blood magic within the Circle because he knew that would be signing his death warrant but had no objection to someone outside the Circle experimenting with it. Once his death warrant had been signed by Meredith, Orsino thought "what the hell?" However, it still doesn't explain why with the mage ending he transforms when Meredith is nowhere in sight and the only people who could possibly suffer are his own allies. A better end would have been for him to accompany you outside to where Meredith is waiting and then transform trying to defend you from her. As it is, you end up feeling pretty let down and personally it sort of decided me against total mage freedom even though I had supported it up to then. When you can't even trust the First Enchanter what hope is there?

[Macropodmum]

Maybe I've missed it because I've only played a mage supporter, but the note from Orsino found in Quentins lair isn't specific, for all we know Orsino only knows he has been practising blood magic and necromancy but Quentin could have told Orsino he was reanimating nugs or kittens. I never found anything that specifically stated that Orsino knew Quentin was cutting up women...

[Icy Magebane]

Bah... okay, I'm not done yet...

It's easy for mage supporters to trivialize this issue, but honestly, how would Orsinio have learned to create a harvester if the only research Quentin told him about related to nugs? I'm sure it's not something that mage supporters want to look at too closely, but try to be objective. The evidence does not support your claims of Orsino's innocence. And one more thing... if he had just reported Quentin in the first place, maybe that would have given Meredith a reason to trust him. But instead, he hides these heinous crimes because he didn't give a damn about those women.

[Macropodmum]

You could also ask though did he mean to turn into a harvester? In his mental state at the time, combined with stupidity I would be willing to go with the fact that he became an abomination. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that on the whole I liked Orsino, he seemed reasonably sane and concerned for the welfare of his charges, so to me the whole change just didn't fit. I would much prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt unless I see it in black and white

[miraclemight]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Bah... okay, I'm not done yet...

It's easy for mage supporters to trivialize this issue, but honestly, how would Orsinio have learned to create a harvester if the only research Quentin told him about related to nugs? I'm sure it's not something that mage supporters want to look at too closely, but try to be objective. The evidence does not support your claims of Orsino's innocence. And one more thing... if he had just reported Quentin in the first place, maybe that would have given Meredith a reason to trust him. But instead, he hides these heinous crimes because he didn't give a damn about those women.

I'm a mage suppoter and I agree with this comment. Maybe it took me that one pro-Templar playthrough to realise it. To be honest, I don't really trust the "irony is, I've never practiced blood magic" confession of a madman who's clearly lost his mind and murdered all his apprentices. Just my opinion.

To all who say practicing blood magic in the Gallows was close to impossible with Meredith around - Well, the circle has dozens of them. They might not show their true face when you are siding with them, but that doesn't make them more innocent.

Alright, now I'm leaving this discussion because if there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that this particualr topic usually turns into one unending nightmare.

[Xilizhra]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Bah... okay, I'm not done yet...

It's easy for mage supporters to trivialize this issue, but honestly, how would Orsinio have learned to create a harvester if the only research Quentin told him about related to nugs? I'm sure it's not something that mage supporters want to look at too closely, but try to be objective. The evidence does not support your claims of Orsino's innocence. And one more thing... if he had just reported Quentin in the first place, maybe that would have given Meredith a reason to trust him. But instead, he hides these heinous crimes because he didn't give a damn about those women.

Meredith is and always has been a loony, even before the idol; that just made her more extreme and ultimately willing to kill her own templars. Reporting him would almost certainly have led to more atrocities being carried out against his own people, and the number of people Quentin killed was quite a bit smaller than the potential casualty list in the Circle.

In any case, I believe the letter came from before Quentin's wife died and he went crazy; he was an academic necromancer before that, but there's no evidence to suggest that he was a killer or that Orsino participated in anything of the sort. And do note that he calls Quentin's research too dangerous and evil to use in the mage ending, until he's pushed into true desperation.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 août 2011 - 10:47 .

[Tainan7509]

Gervaise wrote...

The mages ending doesn't make sense as it stands. Now if Orsino had admitted his involvement in mother's death, you attack him and then he transforms - that would at least have some logic to it. The only way I can reconcile it currently is that Orsino doesn't want the sort of freedom that Anders has forced on him, he can't face the idea of a future of constant fighting, he is genuinely appalled by all the death on both sides and his brain implodes. I don't think it is just a cover story by Varric because it would be pretty easy to disprove - either there is a hideous lump of meat in the inner Gallows or there isn't.

Yeah. This is the reason that bothering me so much at the end. I don't like either side ( and i have hard time to decide which path to go), but Anders makes a push. I try to convince myself: ok Anders blow up the chanetry, but that does not mean all the mages are responsible.Innocent people should not pay the debt for those who commited the crime. So i side with mage, even though Orsino is a jerk for his move and his involvement in Hawke's mother death.

[Rifneno]

Icy Magebane wrote...

It's fine if Anders did his thing without Hawke's help... the only part that bothers me is how different Orsino's mindset is depending on which side you choose in the end. If you choose Templars, he's a cackling madman who taunts you over your mother's murder. If you choose Magi, he doesn't even mention the part he played in that little scheme and acts like this is his first dabbling in blood magic. Very strange.

Actually he mentions it on the mage's end and on the templar's end he still claims this is his first blood magic. The advanced nature of the ritual certainly casts doubt upon that but Orsino was a magical prodigy so I suppose it's possible. Like most parts of the game, we can't be completely sure. If there's one thing they did well it's giving us things to speculate on.

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Yeah, when you side with the mages he says he's putting Quentin's research into action right before he transforms. Basically it's meant to imply that Orsino is a shady, nearly evil character for the whole game and if you sided with the mages you basically got suckered.

I don't believe he was evil (err, nearly evil). He definitely cracked like an egg under the pressure at the end but his interaction with Circle Bethany during the Qunari Invasion makes me think he really is a good guy deep down. He told her to escape while he held off the Qunari. He was basically committing suicide to give her a chance at survival. Little did he know he was equipped with plot armor, but it's the thought that counts.

Anyways, he claims the reason he didn't turn Quentin in once he knew Quentin was insane was because Meredith would use Quentin's crimes as an excuse to bring the hammer down on the Circle. Since she ends up invoking the Right of Annulment because of one apostate, standing next to her, that she didn't care enough to punish... well, it's hard to argue with his reasoning. Not that many templar supporters won't do so, but once again: they always give us a shadow of doubt.

Icy Magebane wrote...

My point is that Orsino's personality is different depending on who you side with. Now, he could just be a two-faced bastard, but I think something's weird there.

I think it's just Bioware being lazy to shoehorn the two endings into being the same. Like how Cullen turns on Meredith to save Hawke even if Hawke spent the whole game pissing on the templars' efforts and spent the past hour killing every templar s/he could.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hell, they showed like 40 Harvester things at the end of GoA. Why not just have one appear magically in the Gallows?

Oh God. I forgot about those. That's going to bite us in the ass hard.

Macropodmum wrote...

Maybe I've missed it because I've only played a mage supporter, but the note from Orsino found in Quentins lair isn't specific, for all we know Orsino only knows he has been practising blood magic and necromancy but Quentin could have told Orsino he was reanimating nugs or kittens. I never found anything that specifically stated that Orsino knew Quentin was cutting up women...

100% true. There is no hard evidence that Orsino knew Quentin was murdering people when he was helping him. It's not like it's hard to find corpses in Kirkwall.

Icy Magebane wrote...

It's easy for mage supporters to trivialize this issue, but honestly, how would Orsinio have learned to create a harvester if the only research Quentin told him about related to nugs? I'm sure it's not something that mage supporters want to look at too closely, but try to be objective. The evidence does not support your claims of Orsino's innocence. And one more thing... if he had just reported Quentin in the first place, maybe that would have given Meredith a reason to trust him. But instead, he hides these heinous crimes because he didn't give a damn about those women.

I was going to point out that Orsino didn't say he never found out about Quentin's madness but that he didn't know when he was assisting him... but once I got to the part where you claim Meredith might have trusted him if he told her that he was giving forbidden research materials to a maleficar. Take your own advice and try a little bit of objectivity.

[Neminea]

The way I see it, we can't possibly know for sure what Meredith would have done if Orsino told her about necromage. He didn't tell her. I liked Orsino, and in my first playthrough I was so outraged at him becoming that... thing... that I never even connected the dots between him and necromage. He went blood mage on me even though I was on his side. I don't care how good or bad his intentions were, that was a stupid, stupid thing to do.

Yes, the ending did sort of dissapoint me because I felt like the only real choice I made was wether or not to let Anders live. After some pondering though I think it's the best thing they could have done. No matter how you put it, that ending makes sure you know that both sides are in the wrong. You can prefer one over the other, but neither of them are 100% right. I like to think that was what bioware wanted for this game, to show us that where there are two sides fighting, two sides are to blame.
Wishfull thinking? Could be

[Xilizhra]

The Circle was never in the wrong. All Orsino was doing was trying to keep it afloat, and a one-time (albeit permanent) snapping at the end.

[Neminea]

Everything in excistance has flaws, so does the circle.

[Xilizhra]

True. But if you go that far, then by your standards, no one and nothing is ever in the right.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Rifneno]

Xili, have you ever thought about being wrong once in a while? Just to switch things up?

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xili, have you ever thought about being wrong once in a while? Just to switch things up?

Well, there's always Merrill.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xili, have you ever thought about being wrong once in a while? Just to switch things up?

Well, there's always Merrill.

Huh?  You lost me...

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xili, have you ever thought about being wrong once in a while? Just to switch things up?

Well, there's always Merrill.

Huh?  You lost me...

You disagree on Merrril. Hence she is wrong there according to you.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xili, have you ever thought about being wrong once in a while? Just to switch things up?

Well, there's always Merrill.

Huh?  You lost me...

Oh, we clash on whether her plan is a good idea or not. Or, to be precise, whether to support her or not. I do, personally, though I do so before knowing about her plan to chat with Audacity again... of course, you can't stop that regardless of friendship/rivalry.

[TEWR]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's probably true, but all the evidence suggest that Orsino was a blood mage. You'd need some kind of background and familiarity with that type of magic to cast the spell in the first place, regardless of your ability to practice it.

And you base this on what exactly? Also, since Orsino is already spontaneously bringing up his connection to Quentin, why would he lie about blood magic?

I'll make this really simple:  Orsino conspired with a necromancer who murdered and dismembered women in an attempt to rebuild his dead wife.  He knew how to cast a spell that was obviously beyond the realm of any known sorcery, and you don't gain that kind of wisdom from an afternoon's rest.  If you don't want to believe it, I can't make you, but Orsino's prior knowledge of blood magic is fairly obvious.  If he weren't a blood mage, then why did he allow a psychopath to murder women and use blood magic to reainmate them into an abomination?  You'd think a normal mage would take offense to that kind of behavior... maybe, report him?

I'm going off of my memory here, but my personal rationalization for Orsino is something like this:

• Quentin escapes from Starkhaven. Contacts his old buddy Orsino saying he wants to study blood magic and necromancy.
• Orsino delivers books to Quentin at a specific area. He asks that Quentin keep him informed.
• Quentin makes very detailed reports and sends them to Orsino.
• Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.
• Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.
• Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."
• Orsino was born with an eidetic memory, which is why he was able to remember what the ritual was about. Before that moment, he was only a mage who studied the theory of blood magic, but never actually used it. With Meredith around and her strict rules, I can't see much of an opportunity for him to practice using blood magic.

Sadly, he decides to show off his eidetic memory even to people who have sided with him because Bioware wanted another boss fight.

[Time4Tiddy]

I always liked Orsino as well, which is why it saddened me that he turned out to be either a) crazy or weak, just like every other mage in Kirkwall that isn't a Hawke party member.

After my first playthrough, I initially thought that Orsino was shady and much more nefarious than we had been led to believe, but after reading some of your rebuttals, I'm now leaning more towards him just being a little naive himself. I think that when he decides to use blood magic, his emotions are in turmoil, and he just opens himself up to become as powerful as possible without necessarily knowing what form that power will take. Since the Harvester was absolutely the most powerful boss from the entire DA:O experience, it's no surprise that a mage trying to become ultimately powerful might turn into one.

[Xilizhra]

Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.

Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.

Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."

And somewhere in there, Quentin's wife dies, Quentin goes crazy and starts killing people.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.

Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.

Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."

And somewhere in there, Quentin's wife dies, Quentin goes crazy and starts killing people.

Probably fits in after the letter Orsino sent. I don't think a sane man would research how to become a Harvester.

[Xilizhra]

Quentin was an academic necromancer, though, and his dialogue with Gascard implies that he lost all heart for research and/or teaching after his wife died. Then he embarked on his project of rebuilding her; I doubt anything, even the Harvester, would have interfered with his obsession then.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quentin was an academic necromancer, though, and his dialogue with Gascard implies that he lost all heart for research and/or teaching after his wife died. Then he embarked on his project of rebuilding her; I doubt anything, even the Harvester, would have interfered with his obsession then.

only logical conclusion being: Quentin was never quite right in the head, and his wife's death only made it worse.


I still have no clue how he discovered how to become a Harvester. It's not like that's something you can practice doing and then say "Welp, time to shift back!"

[Xilizhra]

Well, since not every widower turns into a serial killer, you're probably right.

Though, come to think of it, if Quentin was married... how long ago did he escape the Circle? I didn't think mages were allowed to get married.