176 réponses à ce sujet

[Neminea]

Xilizhra wrote...

True. But if you go that far, then by your standards, no one and nothing is ever in the right.

Come to think on it that is probably true.

About the being married thing, I vaguely remember there being a topic about love in the circle where someone came to the conclusion that mages are allowed to get married, but are discouraged to do so. I'd have to look it up and that takes time since every topic on this forum has a kazzillion posts unless its 5 minutes old

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm going off of my memory here, but my personal rationalization for Orsino is something like this:

• Quentin escapes from Starkhaven. Contacts his old buddy Orsino saying he wants to study blood magic and necromancy.
  
• Orsino delivers books to Quentin at a specific area. He asks that Quentin keep him informed.
  
• Quentin makes very detailed reports and sends them to Orsino.
  
• Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.
  
• Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.
  
• Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."
  Orsino was born with an eidetic memory, which is why he was able to remember what the ritual was about. Before that moment, he was only a mage who studied the theory of blood magic, but never actually used it. With Meredith around and her strict rules, I can't see much of an opportunity for him to practice using blood magic.

Sadly, he decides to show off his eidetic memory even to people who have sided with him because Bioware wanted another boss fight.

This is probably a fairly accurate summation of how things went down.

And the bolded part is yet another reason I have such a hard time accepting the "innocent mages of the Circle" argument.

Helping a runaway = illegal.
Helping someone research blood magic = illegal.
Failing to report either = illegal.

I can't accept the idea that Meredith has no reason to crack down on the Circle when things like this are going on.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, since not every widower turns into a serial killer, you're probably right.

Though, come to think of it, if Quentin was married... how long ago did he escape the Circle? I didn't think mages were allowed to get married.

It depends on the Circle. Under Meredith the Tyrant any mage that was married or is in love doesn't get to see their spouse. Huon couldn't see his wife, Alrik tranquiled a mage just so he could have another sex slave, etc.

In Ferelden's Circle, mages are allowed to get married, though I think it is discouraged. Mainly because I don't think they even take the time to instruct a mage on how to handle death when it happens. If they did that, then mages wouldn't go insane like Quentin.

[Xilizhra]

I can't accept the idea that Meredith has no reason to crack down on the Circle when things like this are going on.

Well, then, I guess I'll kill you in the war.

[Nhadalie]

As much as Orsino claims he hid Quentin to protect the mages, there is evidence that suggests that he was more involved than that.

Orsino's letter stated that he gave Quentin books to further his research. Worse than that, Quentin told him all about his research. Orsino must have had some idea what was going on, even if Quentin never explicitly said "I'm slaughtering women to reconstruct my dead wife. Mwahaha!" Orsino has shown himself to be a very intelligent person, he must have had some idea that Quentin was doing something horribly wrong.

So while Orsino claims that he never used blood magic, he obviously had a great deal of knowledge about it. Regardless of that, he aided a monster, whether he meant to or not, that could have also led to him snapping. When he turns into the Harvester, he's completely given up on any option. He doesn't believe the Circle will be able to survive, even if Meredith's rite of annullment is stopped.

As much as Meredith wasn't a very good leader to the templars, Orsino wasn't a very good one to the mages. A true leader would not give up like that, and sacrifice the lives of the people below them for nothing. They would find a way to make things work, even under the harshest conditions.

[Xilizhra]

As much as Meredith wasn't a very good leader to the templars, Orsino wasn't a very good one to the mages. A true leader would not give up like that, and sacrifice the lives of the people below them for nothing. They would find a way to make things work, even under the harshest conditions.

I agree with you in part, because him snapping wasn't written into his character; it was just thrown in to make him a loot pinata. However, I doubt you can conclusively say that without having to try to keep hundreds of oppressed and potentially possessable people safe and not possessed for years on end and being often thwarted by forces beyond your control.

[Nhadalie]

Xilizhra wrote...

As much as Meredith wasn't a very good leader to the templars, Orsino wasn't a very good one to the mages. A true leader would not give up like that, and sacrifice the lives of the people below them for nothing. They would find a way to make things work, even under the harshest conditions.

I agree with you in part, because him snapping wasn't written into his character; it was just thrown in to make him a loot pinata. However, I doubt you can conclusively say that without having to try to keep hundreds of oppressed and potentially possessable people safe and not possessed for years on end and being often thwarted by forces beyond your control.

I think him snapping actually can fit his character, such as in a pro-templar play through. But in a pro-mage one, it doesn't make any sense.

He's not the only one with that responsibility, however. He shares that responsibility with the senior enchanters, and with the templars. His true responsibility is to look out for those mages under his care, make sure they are educated properly, and prevent them from being abused by the templars when he is able to.

Alrik's abuses should have been reported. They weren't. Even if Meredith didn't approve, Orsino could have repoted Alrik to Elthina. She would not have let Alrik abuse the mages. Someone outside of the Circle should not have been the one to deal with that. And if Hawke can find out that it's going on, Orsino definitely knew. Yet he did nothing to protect the mages from Ser Alrik, when it is fully within his rights to petition for Ser Alrik to be removed from the Circle.

He also could have turned in Quentin. The only way it would have reflected upon him, would have been if Meredith saw evidence of his involvement. Meredith wasn't a complete loony until Act 3. She might have understood that one blood mage from another Circle doesn't make them all just as bad. Even in Act 3, Meredith shows moments of compassion for the mages under her care.

If Meredith found evidence of his corruption, even then, it would have only reflected on him. He would have been made tranquil, or executed. And a senior enchanter would have taken his place as First Enchanter.

Even in the pro-templar situation, where him snapping would make sense, he could have chosen a different path. A better one for the mages below him. He could have pleaded with Hawke to not kill them all. But no. He decides to fight Hawke instead, and throw away his life, as well as the lives of the people he's in charge of protecting.

So yes, I don't think Orsino was a very good first Enchanter. He had options in several situations that a good leader would have taken. He didn't take them.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 20 août 2011 - 05:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Alrik's abuses should have been reported. They weren't. Even if Meredith didn't approve, Orsino could have repoted Alrik to Elthina. She would not have let Alrik abuse the mages. Someone outside of the Circle should not have been the one to deal with that. And if Hawke can find out that it's going on, Orsino definitely knew. Yet he did nothing to protect the mages from Ser Alrik, when it is fully within his rights to petition for Ser Alrik to be removed from the Circle.

Pff. You trust Elthina to do anything? Even if she did, why would anyone believe anything Orsino said? And how would Orsino even get a message to Elthina personally; Meredith would intercept everything. Maybe it's within his rights, but mage rights are routinely ignored in the Gallows.

He also could have turned in Quentin. The only way it would have reflected upon him, would have been if Meredith saw evidence of his involvement. Meredith wasn't a complete loony until Act 3. She might have understood that one blood mage from another Circle doesn't make them all just as bad. Even in Act 3, Meredith shows moments of compassion for the mages under her care.

Meredith was always horrible. Her chances of not attacking the Circle for it are infinitesimal, and her compassion is always twisted.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I still have no clue how he discovered how to become a Harvester. It's not like that's something you can practice doing and then say "Welp, time to shift back!"

I'm not sure it's all that complicated. Or that harvesters are all nearly as powerful as the one in DAO. DG said that they're a demon possessing... I forget how he put it, but basically a big pile of flesh. The ****** dwarves tried to build a golem out of casteless they chopped up and had a magister summon a demon. Orsino summoned a demon himself and used the corpses of a bunch of mages that all dropped dead of a congenital heart defect at bizarrely the same moment. The GoA harvester was an accident (or maybe the magister just thought it'd be funny, since she seemed to have split right after making it). Perhaps Orsino's was too.

As for their badassery, the GoA one may have just been because the demon they summoned was a really powerful demon. They won the demon lottery. Except instead of money, they won murder. Anyway Orsino's wasn't nearly as powerful as the GoA one, and demons vary greatly in power, so it makes sense that a harvester's power is based on the demon that was infused into the pile of gore.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, since not every widower turns into a serial killer, you're probably right.

Exactly. Quentin was just plain nuts. Grief is powerful but it doesn't do that to anyone that isn't already unhinged. If his wife hadn't died, something else would likely have set him off. Come to think of it, we don't know how she died but we know her husband is a serial killer. Maybe the crazy bastard killed her himself.

Though, come to think of it, if Quentin was married... how long ago did he escape the Circle? I didn't think mages were allowed to get married.

Wha?! Never! The Chantry is very understanding!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Ferelden's Circle, mages are allowed to get married, though I think it is discouraged. Mainly because I don't think they even take the time to instruct a mage on how to handle death when it happens. If they did that, then mages wouldn't go insane like Quentin.

If that's the reason, it's monumentally stupid. Not letting people marry doesn't stop them from falling in love.

Nhadalie wrote...

As much as Orsino claims he hid Quentin to protect the mages, there is evidence that suggests that he was more involved than that.

Orsino's letter stated that he gave Quentin books to further his research. Worse than that, Quentin told him all about his research. Orsino must have had some idea what was going on, even if Quentin never explicitly said "I'm slaughtering women to reconstruct my dead wife. Mwahaha!" Orsino has shown himself to be a very intelligent person, he must have had some idea that Quentin was doing something horribly wrong.

Did you even read anything past the first post? 

[Xilizhra]

Exactly. Quentin was just plain nuts. Grief is powerful but it doesn't do that to anyone that isn't already unhinged.

I'm actually not quite certain about that, because necromancy isn't an art in our world. Since he could already bring back the dead in a fashion, it wouldn't be that hard to delude himself into thinking he could do it for real.

[Nhadalie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Alrik's abuses should have been reported. They weren't. Even if Meredith didn't approve, Orsino could have repoted Alrik to Elthina. She would not have let Alrik abuse the mages. Someone outside of the Circle should not have been the one to deal with that. And if Hawke can find out that it's going on, Orsino definitely knew. Yet he did nothing to protect the mages from Ser Alrik, when it is fully within his rights to petition for Ser Alrik to be removed from the Circle.

Pff. You trust Elthina to do anything? Even if she did, why would anyone believe anything Orsino said? And how would Orsino even get a message to Elthina personally; Meredith would intercept everything. Maybe it's within his rights, but mage rights are routinely ignored in the Gallows.

He also could have turned in Quentin. The only way it would have reflected upon him, would have been if Meredith saw evidence of his involvement. Meredith wasn't a complete loony until Act 3. She might have understood that one blood mage from another Circle doesn't make them all just as bad. Even in Act 3, Meredith shows moments of compassion for the mages under her care.

Meredith was always horrible. Her chances of not attacking the Circle for it are infinitesimal, and her compassion is always twisted.

Elthina is the grand cleric. It was her duty to oversee the Chantry, including the Templars, and the Circle of Mages. She denied Ser Alrik's "Tranquil Solution", what makes you think she wouldn't have removed Alrik for abusing the mages?

Orsino is the First Enchanter. That's a position of power within the Circle. That means, he can, and is expected to take action over everything that occurs within the Circle. And I'm pretty sure that if Orsino wanted to stop Ser Alrik, he would have found a way to contact someone who could have stopped it. You're not giving him enough credit for his own intelligence, and influence.

I think you're exaggerating how she would have acted. She didn't have the idol yet, and while she acted harsh towards the mages, I don't believe she would have called for the rite of annullment over Quentin, who wasn't even from their Circle. Even if she discovered Orsino's involvement. I think it's more likely that she would have investigated any mages who worked closely with Orsino afterwards to make sure they weren't involved. And anyone who was involved would be punished too.

I'm not saying Meredith is without her faults. But from her actions, I don't believe she would have overreacted like that until after getting the idol.

[Neminea]

Rifneno wrote...

Nhadalie wrote...

As much as Orsino claims he hid Quentin to protect the mages, there is evidence that suggests that he was more involved than that.

Orsino's letter stated that he gave Quentin books to further his research. Worse than that, Quentin told him all about his research. Orsino must have had some idea what was going on, even if Quentin never explicitly said "I'm slaughtering women to reconstruct my dead wife. Mwahaha!" Orsino has shown himself to be a very intelligent person, he must have had some idea that Quentin was doing something horribly wrong.

Did you even read anything past the first post? 

I don't think this is fair, I have read everything and what i see is speculation on what Orsino did or didn't know, no proof. My impression was and is still that he knew what was going on as well, no amount of speculation on what he did or didn't know is going to change that without solid proof. It's the impression that I got, and apparantly the impression that the poster you qouted has too. One doesn't have to be ignorant of what other people posted to stick to an opinion.

[Xilizhra]

Elthina is the grand cleric. It was her duty to oversee the Chantry, including the Templars, and the Circle of Mages. She denied Ser Alrik's "Tranquil Solution", what makes you think she wouldn't have removed Alrik for abusing the mages?

It was the Divine and Meredith who denied it, technically. And she'd have to be convinced that Orsino was telling the truth, which Meredith would deny, and she'd probably just wander back to the Chantry in her general fog of total uselessness.

Orsino is the First Enchanter. That's a position of power within the Circle. That means, he can, and is expected to take action over everything that occurs within the Circle. And I'm pretty sure that if Orsino wanted to stop Ser Alrik, he would have found a way to contact someone who could have stopped it. You're not giving him enough credit for his own intelligence, and influence.

Apparently it's not a position of power when the knight-commander refuses to let you have any. Do you think Orsino signed off on every Rite of Tranquility? Why would Meredith bother?
In any case, he has no influence until Act 3, when Meredith is getting so out of control that the mages are starting to look good to the nobility, and that's too late.

I think you're exaggerating how she would have acted. She didn't have the idol yet, and while she acted harsh towards the mages, I don't believe she would have called for the rite of annullment over Quentin, who wasn't even from their Circle. Even if she discovered Orsino's involvement. I think it's more likely that she would have investigated any mages who worked closely with Orsino afterwards to make sure they weren't involved. And anyone who was involved would be punished too.

Whether it would be downright Annulment, I'm not sure, but it'd definitely be a smaller purge, probably with several more Tranquilities and likely a few deaths, probably some more trying to flee the Gallows and turning to blood magic in turn... and that's a best-case scenario.

I'm not saying Meredith is without her faults. But from her actions, I don't believe she would have overreacted like that until after getting the idol.

And I can't fathom why.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 août 2011 - 05:32 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm actually not quite certain about that, because necromancy isn't an art in our world. Since he could already bring back the dead in a fashion, it wouldn't be that hard to delude himself into thinking he could do it for real.

Doesn't stop them from believing it in real life either. Do not click this link unless you have a strong stomach. People are sick, sick freaks.

Neminea wrote...

I don't think this is fair, I have read everything and what i see is speculation on what Orsino did or didn't know, no proof. My impression was and is still that he knew what was going on as well, no amount of speculation on what he did or didn't know is going to change that without solid proof. It's the impression that I got, and apparantly the impression that the poster you qouted has too. One doesn't have to be ignorant of what other people posted to stick to an opinion.

I didn't ask that because she was giving an opinion, I asked because she told us like we were unaware of a matter we've been debating for pages.

[Neminea]

I am sorry, it came across as a dismissal because he/she didn't mention it. My bad.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't stop them from believing it in real life either. Do not click this link unless you have a strong stomach. People are sick, sick freaks.

I wouldn't attach that label to someone who didn't even kill anyone, personally.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Doesn't stop them from believing it in real life either. Do not click this link unless you have a strong stomach. People are sick, sick freaks.

I wouldn't attach that label to someone who didn't even kill anyone, personally.

I'm not saying he should've been executed for it or anything, but he certainly fits that description.  Freak is obviously derogatory but "sick" is a very apt description.  No healthy mind would do that.  That people found it romantic just adds another layer of disturbing.

[Xilizhra]

It's... well, creepy, but only creepy. Though I suspect it wasn't very mentally healthy for him in any case.

[kyles3]

They should've just had Cullen turn into a Harvester if you side with the mages. Why would a templar turn into a Harvester? Blame it on the Hellmouth. 

Modifié par kyles3, 20 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[TEWR]

I'm not sure it's all that complicated. Or that harvesters are all nearly as powerful as the one in DAO. DG said that they're a demon possessing... I forget how he put it, but basically a big pile of flesh. The ****** dwarves tried to build a golem out of casteless they chopped up and had a magister summon a demon. Orsino summoned a demon himself and used the corpses of a bunch of mages that all dropped dead of a congenital heart defect at bizarrely the same moment. The GoA harvester was an accident (or maybe the magister just thought it'd be funny, since she seemed to have split right after making it). Perhaps Orsino's was too.

As for their badassery, the GoA one may have just been because the demon they summoned was a really powerful demon. They won the demon lottery. Except instead of money, they won murder. Anyway Orsino's wasn't nearly as powerful as the GoA one, and demons vary greatly in power, so it makes sense that a harvester's power is based on the demon that was infused into the pile of gore.

Problem with that being, he wouldn't know how to do it unless he actually tried it on either himself (which would result in him becoming mindless) or a heaping of flesh. He couldn't have been certain it would work if he didn't test it.

And the Harvester would've killed him. It killed everyone in Amgarrak. I doubt Quentin would've been able to take it down.

Doesn't stop them from believing it in real life either. Do not click this link unless you have a strong stomach. People are sick, sick freaks.

Jesus **********ing, tapdancing Christ....


that's worse than the lady who kept a corpse in her car so she could take the car pool lane.

If that's the reason, it's monumentally stupid. Not letting people marry doesn't stop them from falling in love.

Indeed. Banning something doesn't mean it won't ever happen. You can ban blood magic, but there are still blood mages (both good and bad). You can ban marriage, but love still exists. You can ban alcohol much like America did during Prohibition, but booze will still be distributed illegally.

They need to teach mages how to handle death. That's part and parcel of being a mage, since demons prey on an emotionally weak person.

Funny thing. My great-grandfather who was sheriff of a town operated a bar in his basement during Prohibition.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's probably true, but all the evidence suggest that Orsino was a blood mage. You'd need some kind of background and familiarity with that type of magic to cast the spell in the first place, regardless of your ability to practice it.

And you base this on what exactly? Also, since Orsino is already spontaneously bringing up his connection to Quentin, why would he lie about blood magic?

I'll make this really simple:  Orsino conspired with a necromancer who murdered and dismembered women in an attempt to rebuild his dead wife.  He knew how to cast a spell that was obviously beyond the realm of any known sorcery, and you don't gain that kind of wisdom from an afternoon's rest.  If you don't want to believe it, I can't make you, but Orsino's prior knowledge of blood magic is fairly obvious.  If he weren't a blood mage, then why did he allow a psychopath to murder women and use blood magic to reainmate them into an abomination?  You'd think a normal mage would take offense to that kind of behavior... maybe, report him?

I'm going off of my memory here, but my personal rationalization for Orsino is something like this:

• Quentin escapes from Starkhaven. Contacts his old buddy Orsino saying he wants to study blood magic and necromancy.
• Orsino delivers books to Quentin at a specific area. He asks that Quentin keep him informed.
• Quentin makes very detailed reports and sends them to Orsino.
• Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.
• Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things.
• Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."
• Orsino was born with an eidetic memory, which is why he was able to remember what the ritual was about. Before that moment, he was only a mage who studied the theory of blood magic, but never actually used it. With Meredith around and her strict rules, I can't see much of an opportunity for him to practice using blood magic.

Sadly, he decides to show off his eidetic memory even to people who have sided with him because Bioware wanted another boss fight.

I agree with all but the first point. He was never part of a circle as far as we know. He was married and DePeuis or whatever the hell his name was, was his apprentice. When Quentines wife died, he left his apprentince to find a way to bring his wife back, hencehe turned to  blood magic and nacromancy.

[ObserverStatus]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Before buying DA2, I heard alot of bad things about it. Mainly based on around how much some environments are repetited. This did not bother me, and I defended the game up until this point. This was one of the best 30 hours of my life, and was super pysheced assuming that the choices I made mattered. Well, If I'm feeling this right, they don't.

Why does Anders need our help blowing up the chantry, if he does it anyway?
What is the point siding with either faction if both leaders die (Orsino is a ****** and Meredith is a crazy b just I thought), and the end result is the same?

I still plan on playing through the game again, but damn, why bother? Was anyone else dissapointed at this revelation?

Well yeah, I enjoyed it the first time, but it has just about 0 replay value.  And because of the "all characters are bi" function, you don't even have to start a second character to try all the romance options, which may have been the only choice in the game that came close to mattering.

[TEWR]

@Mr. House:

1) I miss your Warden slap avatar.
2) Gascard was inquiring into missing mages from Starkhaven's Circle, which might mean Quentin was a mage there. Though I admit I worded number 1 poorly. Whether he was always an apostate or was once a Circle mage isn't really known for certain.

[Xilizhra]

Wait a minute. Mharen went missing from Kirkwall's Circle. What if Quentin kidnapped someone from Starkhaven before coming (or returning) to Kirkwall?

[TEWR]

It's possible. We only fight 3 of the possessions of the people he did kidnap, most likely because I doubt people would want to fight 50 waves and watching Leandra flop around during those waves before fighting Quentin.