176 réponses à ce sujet

[T3H Fish]

Though I was kinda disappointed with DA2 overall, Orsino and Meredith were never really 'villians' to begin with. I've played through both pro- and anti- mage playthroughs and either way you look at it, they're two people who cracked at the worst possible moment.

Meredith is so anti-mage because she was related to one, who turned into an Abomination and slaughtered her entire family. She's so controlling with the Kirkwall Circle because she knows how easy it is for a mage to turn, maleficar or not. However, she's proven she can be understanding to a point, since she lets a MageHawke allow to wander free in Kirkwall and even makes no attempts to bar Hawke from gaining noble, then Champion status. Hell, she even barred one of her own Commander's plans to Traquilize any mages that so much as sneezed in the wrong place at the wrong time. True, the idol fed on her paranoia regarding mages, leading to more oppression and the rise of the Resolutionist fraternity in the Free Marches, yet despite all that she doesn't go after Hawke or even Anders and Merril, those two also being well known apostates with as much association with Hawke as they had.

Orsino was, honestly, a very good guy, looking out for his fellow mages to try and keep them from being brutalized by the Templars and the influence of maleficar within Kirkwall and the Free Marches in general. He never wanted violence, even when Meredith started losing her mind in Act 3, he had kept trying to draw Grand Cleric Elthina into the situation to get Meredith to back off. At the end, I can understand why he turned to blood-magic, seeing all of his friends, family, and students slaughtered. The Orsino Harvester fight, any of the surviving Circle mages actually flee the area. He uses the dead corpses for the ritual, which is what a Harvester is made out of so it's plausible the research surfaced somewhere, considering it had been commissioned by Tevinter Magisters before things went horribly wrong.

Anyway, when Anders blew up the Chantry, it removed any grounds for a truce or getting Meredith removed from Kirkwall because Grand Cleric Elthena outranked her and could bar the request for the Right of Annulment. Orsino cracked under the pressure and despair because Meredith had many more Templars at her command than he had mages to hold her off. Resorting to blood magic seems to be a common pattern for mages who find themselves cornered with no chance of escape. Orsino probably knew he was going to die and hoped, at the least, he'd take Meredith with him, but instead ends up attacking the Champion, whether you were on his side or not.

[Urzon]

Anyway, when Anders blew up the Chantry, it removed any grounds for a truce or getting Meredith removed from Kirkwall because Grand Cleric Elthena outranked her and could bar the request for the Right of Annulment. Orsino cracked under the pressure and despair because Meredith had many more Templars at her command than he had mages to hold her off. Resorting to blood magic seems to be a common pattern for mages who find themselves cornered with no chance of escape. Orsino probably knew he was going to die and hoped, at the least, he'd take Meredith with him, but instead ends up attacking the Champion, whether you were on his side or not.

While Meredith was more than slightly prejudice against mages, she seems be be a reasonable person during act 2. The problem is that unless Meredith did something really bad that stepped over line, i dont see Elthena removing her from the Knight-Commander postion. Elthena seem to be in the know about alot of things, and if she allowed Meredith to tranquilize mages that went threw their harrowing already (which is against Chantry law); i don't see her removing Meredith soon.

While i do agree with Elthena on most thing, since she seems to be one of the most honest and good people in Kirkwall; she didn't do anything to try and solve the problem. She could have dragged Orsino and Meredith by the ears and sat them down in the Chantry to discuss what needs to happen to settle the dispute, but she didn't do anything. She just set them to their rooms to let them cool down and walked away from the matter.

"Evil wins when good (wo)men do nothing."

Plus in Act 3, Meredith goes over Elthena head and asks for Rite of Annulment from the Divine herself. I guessing she was still waiting for the answer for the whole act, but when Anders killed Elthena; Meredith now had the authority to call it herself. So, she didn't need the reply.

Modifié par Urzon, 20 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[T3H Fish]

Urzon wrote...

Anyway, when Anders blew up the Chantry, it removed any grounds for a truce or getting Meredith removed from Kirkwall because Grand Cleric Elthena outranked her and could bar the request for the Right of Annulment. Orsino cracked under the pressure and despair because Meredith had many more Templars at her command than he had mages to hold her off. Resorting to blood magic seems to be a common pattern for mages who find themselves cornered with no chance of escape. Orsino probably knew he was going to die and hoped, at the least, he'd take Meredith with him, but instead ends up attacking the Champion, whether you were on his side or not.

While Meredith was more than slightly prejudice against mages, she seems be be a reasonable person during act 2. The problem is that unless Meredith did something really bad that stepped over line, i dont see Elthena removing her from the Knight-Commander postion. Elthena seem to be in the know about alot of things, and if she allowed Meredith to tranquilize mages that went threw their harrowing already (which is against Chantry law); i don't see her removing Meredith soon.

While i do agree with Elthena on most thing, since she seems to be one of the most honest and good people in Kirkwall; she didn't do anything to try and solve the problem. She could have dragged Orsino and Meredith by the ears and sat them down in the Chantry to discuss what needs to happen to settle the dispute, but she didn't do anything. She just set them to their rooms to let them cool down and walked away from the matter.

"Evil wins when good (wo)men do nothing."

Plus in Act 3, Meredith goes over Elthena head and asks for Rite of Annulment from the Divine herself. I guessing she was still waiting for the answer for the whole act, but when Anders killed Elthena; Meredith now had the authority to call it herself. So, she didn't need the reply.

Well, Elthenia made it clear she wasn't going to chose sides in regards to who was right when it came to Orsino and Meredith. Her neutrality, for the most part, was because she cared more about Kirkwall as a whole and not the squabble going on between them. I don't think she saw them as resorting to out-right violence, but then that's just me. Whatever her thought process was, it unfortunately was not the right decision but I think she was in one of those situations where she's stuck in a 'rock and hard place'. Chosing either side would have had consequences in not just Kirkwall, but probably in the face of the Chantry itself. If Grand Clerics and other Chantry officials can start choosing sides, well... that wouldn't look good if someone chose the 'wrong' side.

As to jumping to the Divine with her request, I think Meredith was or would have been denied or at least put on 'pending' status. If someone jumps over thier superior's head to get something out of their superior, usually the higher up investigates first before taking any action, which it seems like the Divine was doing during the later parts of Act 3.

[Urzon]

Well, Elthenia made it clear she wasn't going to chose sides in regards to who was right when it came to Orsino and Meredith. Her neutrality, for the most part, was because she cared more about Kirkwall as a whole and not the squabble going on between them. I don't think she saw them as resorting to out-right violence, but then that's just me. Whatever her thought process was, it unfortunately was not the right decision but I think she was in one of those situations where she's stuck in a 'rock and hard place'. Chosing either side would have had consequences in not just Kirkwall, but probably in the face of the Chantry itself. If Grand Clerics and other Chantry officials can start choosing sides, well... that wouldn't look good if someone chose the 'wrong' side.

As to jumping to the Divine with her request, I think Meredith was or would have been denied or at least put on 'pending' status. If someone jumps over thier superior's head to get something out of their superior, usually the higher up investigates first before taking any action, which it seems like the Divine was doing during the later parts of Act 3.

You don't need to choose a side if you are acting as a mediator.

I'm not sure if the Divine would have denied her request though. During the Faith quest, it seem that the Divine was considering doing an Exalted March on Kirkwall if the problem with the mages got any worse. Innocent citizens be damned.

Modifié par Urzon, 20 août 2011 - 10:53 .

[T3H Fish]

Urzon wrote...

Well, Elthenia made it clear she wasn't going to chose sides in regards to who was right when it came to Orsino and Meredith. Her neutrality, for the most part, was because she cared more about Kirkwall as a whole and not the squabble going on between them. I don't think she saw them as resorting to out-right violence, but then that's just me. Whatever her thought process was, it unfortunately was not the right decision but I think she was in one of those situations where she's stuck in a 'rock and hard place'. Chosing either side would have had consequences in not just Kirkwall, but probably in the face of the Chantry itself. If Grand Clerics and other Chantry officials can start choosing sides, well... that wouldn't look good if someone chose the 'wrong' side.

As to jumping to the Divine with her request, I think Meredith was or would have been denied or at least put on 'pending' status. If someone jumps over thier superior's head to get something out of their superior, usually the higher up investigates first before taking any action, which it seems like the Divine was doing during the later parts of Act 3.

You don't need to choose side if you are acting as a mediator.

I'm not sure if the Divine would have denied her request though. During the Faith quest, it seem that the Divine was considering doing an Exalted March on Kirkwall if the problem with the mages got any worse. Innocent citizens be damned.

Oh, I had forgotten about that. Scratch that last bit then.

And I understand Elthenia trying to be a mediator, but it felt like not just Orsino and Meredith wanted her to make a solid decision one way or the other, it felt like all of Kirkwall was kinda expecting her to settle the matter once and for all.

[GavrielKay]

I noticed something on my second playthrough that I'd missed the first time. Before Orsino goes Harvester, there is a wave of Templars running towards your group that get barred by a wave of flame. To be charitable to BioWare, I decided that meant Orsino actually freaked out about those Templars rather than just trying to kill a Hawke who'd been supporting him all along. It's thin, but it was the best I could do.

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Doesn't stop them from believing it in real life either. Do not click this link unless you have a strong stomach. People are sick, sick freaks.

Interesting read, thankyou

[Vicious]

There's plenty of precedence for Orsino's freakout and Anders blowing up the chantry.

Unfortunately in Orsino's [indeed all the Mages] case you have to put it together with the many codex entries, and it's less about Orsino, but the city of Kirkwall and how it corrupts.

In Anders case, it's a lot easier. You simply have to rivalry him. If you pursue the friendship path, it all does seem to come out of nowhere. If you rivalry him, you get the real story.


As to the player not having any effect on it... that's because it is a story. It all happened already and Varric is recounting it. If you chose to skip a quest doesn't mean it didn't happen, it's pretty obvious the story assumes Hawke did EVERYTHING.

[Urzon]

Unfortunately in Orsino's [indeed all the Mages] case you have to put it together with the many codex entries, and it's less about Orsino, but the city of Kirkwall and how it corrupts.

It's sad how only the Band of Three figured out the mystery behind Kirkwall. You would have thought someone from either the Circles or Chantry would say, "Wow! Those mages in Kirkwall sure do have a habit of going insane or turning to blood magic. Maybe we should investigate that..."

Though, the blame falls on the Band of Three for me. Hiding all their research papers under cobblestones, they have some nerve. lol

[Sons of Horus]

You know i reckon Anders should have been one to turn into the haverster abomination. It would have made more sence.

[SkittlesKat96]

Yeah, the plot for DA 2 was pretty mediocre/average and that goes for a lot of other parts of the game too.

Legacy rekindled my optimism for the Dragon Age series though and made me realize that Bioware might still be able to pull the series back together and change it without screwing it over (whereas with DA 2 they changed it and screwed it over.)

[Rifneno]

Urzon wrote...

While i do agree with Elthena on most thing, since she seems to be one of the most honest and good people in Kirkwall

Elthina is the the single worst person in DA2. She's worse than Meredith, Anders, Orsino, Quentin, Karras, Alrik, the Arishok, every last one of them. She got off way too easy. She deserved to be physically, mentally, and yes I'll say it, sexually abused until she took her own life like so many of the helpless people under her "care." I hope the Maker is real, and I hope he has a hell, because Elthina deserves more suffering than could ever be dished out to a mortal body.

Everyone else that was a part in the slow implosion of Kirkwall had something screwing with their head. Meredith had severe past trauma and the idol. Cullen had even worse past trauma. Anders trauma somewhere between them and he had a spirit on crack in his head. The Arishok was pretty much raised from birth to be an evil supercommunist monster. All the mages have the Kirkwall vortex of insanity. Elthina had... nothing. She was just a self-righteous ****.

Elthina is the authority that's supposed to be overseeing the templars. She cannot be neutral. Her being "neutral" is exactly the same as siding with Meredith. I have no idea why people buy that "neutrality" crap. Let's say there's some psycho chasing you with a knife and you run across a cop as you frantically flee. He shrugs, says "You two play nice" and calmly walks off. Then there's a sharp pain in your back and everything goes black. Was that cop being fair and neutral? No, he's a cop and he needs to do his goddamn job.

Vicious wrote...

As to the player not having any effect on it... that's because it is a story. It all happened already and Varric is recounting it. If you chose to skip a quest doesn't mean it didn't happen, it's pretty obvious the story assumes Hawke did EVERYTHING.

And people shouldn't be annoyed that the writers picked the hideous abomination known as framed narration?

Sons of Horus wrote...

You know i reckon Anders should have been one to turn into the haverster abomination. It would have made more sence.

Except for that part where a harvester requires demonic possession which Anders is immune to because of Justice.

[LobselVith8]

I don't see how some think Elthina is a good person when she did nothing about the problems or the dictatorship that arose in Kirkwall, despite being Meredih's superior (as her own codex entry addresses). Even her reaction to Alrik's papers about the "Tranquil Solution" didn't make me like her, since she seemed to care more about the death of a vile person than the monstrous actions that he committed.

As for Legacy, It disappointed me, personally - letting the bad guy go (which is evident in the Larius decision) made me feel like Hawke would perpetually be denied from using his brain in Dragon Age 2 for the sake of being "dark." And why is Anders contradicting what he said in his Act II quest? Didn't we have enough of a linear narrative in the main game where our choices (for the most part) didn't matter? If more DLC will be as linear and uninspiring as Legacy, I don't see the point in being invested in the future of Dragon Age.

[Xilizhra]

As for Legacy, It disappointed me, personally - letting the bad guy go (which is evident in the Larius decision) made me feel like Hawke would perpetually be denied from using his brain in Dragon Age 2 for the sake of being "dark." And why is Anders contradicting what he said in his Act II quest? Didn't we have enough of a linear narrative in the main game where our choices (for the most part) didn't matter? If more DLC will be as linear and uninspiring as Legacy, I don't see the point in being invested in the future of Dragon Age.

I don't know. I actually believed Larius until he grinned evilly at the camera, and Hawke couldn't see that. I don't think Hawke was really being that stupid there.

[CommanderWilliams]

I like how this has turned into a discussion about Orsino's background and thought process.

[Lucy Glitter]

 Orsino boss fight is boring and pointless. One issue I have with the end-game. That, and you don't have much choice in many things.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see how some think Elthina is a good person when she did nothing about the problems or the dictatorship that arose in Kirkwall, despite being Meredih's superior (as her own codex entry addresses). Even her reaction to Alrik's papers about the "Tranquil Solution" didn't make me like her, since she seemed to care more about the death of a vile person than the monstrous actions that he committed.

I wish there was an option to sell her to a Tevinter slaver. I'd even pay them if they promised she'd go to a particularly sadistic mage. None of that "cut her open and take teh mana!" crap. Too easy.

As for Legacy, It disappointed me, personally - letting the bad guy go (which is evident in the Larius decision) made me feel like Hawke would perpetually be denied from using his brain in Dragon Age 2 for the sake of being "dark." And why is Anders contradicting what he said in his Act II quest? Didn't we have enough of a linear narrative in the main game where our choices (for the most part) didn't matter? If more DLC will be as linear and uninspiring as Legacy, I don't see the point in being invested in the future of Dragon Age.

Anders became the dev mouthpiece. Just like the King's Confidant (was he ever given a name? I can't find/remember one) in RtO. They didn't like that their "gray area" wasn't quite as gray as they thought so they 'clarified' things for us in DLC.

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. I actually believed Larius until he grinned evilly at the camera, and Hawke couldn't see that. I don't think Hawke was really being that stupid there.

Yeah, s/he was. As soon as I saw Larius was standing up straight and talking normally I was very, very suspicious. When he accidentally used Corypheus' Yodaspeak I was positive he was possessed even without the camera-only evil grin or metagaming knowledge about the archdemon's soulhop trick (though Anders & a warden sibling should know about that anyway).

[Xilizhra]

Anders became the dev mouthpiece. Just like the King's Confidant (was he ever given a name? I can't find/remember one) in RtO. They didn't like that their "gray area" wasn't quite as gray as they thought so they 'clarified' things for us in DLC.

Fortuitously, I don't think I'll bring Anders. I can't bear to part with Merrill. Unless the Anders dialogue is really good somehow.

Yeah, s/he was. As soon as I saw Larius was standing up straight and talking normally I was very, very suspicious. When he accidentally used Corypheus' Yodaspeak I was positive he was possessed even without the camera-only evil grin or metagaming knowledge about the archdemon's soulhop trick (though Anders & a warden sibling should know about that anyway).

Hawke has no idea how the Calling works; why wouldn't she think that turning off Corypheus' song would make its deleterious effects go away? Even the Warden sibling doesn't find it overly implausible.

[HSHAW]

Anders became the dev mouthpiece. Just like the King's Confidant (was he ever given a name? I can't find/remember one) in RtO. They didn't like that their "gray area" wasn't quite as gray as they thought so they 'clarified' things for us in DLC.

what do you mean by this?

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fortuitously, I don't think I'll bring Anders. I can't bear to part with Merrill. Unless the Anders dialogue is really good somehow.

No, no it's not. The dialogue when Anders receives the amulet is ridiculously stupid.

Xilizhra wrote...

Hawke has no idea how the Calling works; why wouldn't she think that turning off Corypheus' song would make its deleterious effects go away? Even the Warden sibling doesn't find it overly implausible.

When Larius starts talking like Corpheus, that should have been a sign to Hawke (along with everything else), but instead he's railroaded by the plot to do absolutely nothing - just like when he confronted Petrice in "Sheparding Wolves" and Grace when she killed Thrask in "Best Served Cold." I don't know why the developers keep making Hawke seem absurdly incompetent.

[Xilizhra]

When Larius starts talking like Corpheus, that should have been a sign to Hawke (along with everything else), but instead he's railroaded by the plot to do absolutely nothing - just like when he confronted Petrice in "Sheparding Wolves" and Grace when she killed Thrask in "Best Served Cold." I don't know why the developers keep making Hawke seem absurdly incompetent.

I'm slightly irked that you are, by extension, calling me absurdly incompetent for not noticing it immediately.

[atheelogos]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders is more important to the plot than Hawke is.

Bioware decided Orsino should go bat**** crazy on both sides because they wanted another boss fight. That's actually the reason they gave.

REALLY. I mean I knew that was the reason but I'm surpised they'd admit to it. Do you have a link to that thread?

[Herr Uhl]

HSHAW wrote...

Anders became the dev mouthpiece. Just like the King's Confidant (was he ever given a name? I can't find/remember one) in RtO. They didn't like that their "gray area" wasn't quite as gray as they thought so they 'clarified' things for us in DLC.

what do you mean by this?

Kind of wondering the same.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

When Larius starts talking like Corpheus, that should have been a sign to Hawke (along with everything else), but instead he's railroaded by the plot to do absolutely nothing - just like when he confronted Petrice in "Sheparding Wolves" and Grace when she killed Thrask in "Best Served Cold." I don't know why the developers keep making Hawke seem absurdly incompetent.

I'm slightly irked that you are, by extension, calling me absurdly incompetent for not noticing it immediately.

I consider Hawke absurdly incompetent because it's something he always does. When faced with Petrice, he does nothing. When Cullen comes to take away Bethany, he does nothing. When Meredith becomes a dictator over Kirkwall, Hawke does nothing for three entire years. When Grace is going to kill Thrask, he does nothing. So when Hawke, once again, does nothing - I see him as incompetent.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 août 2011 - 02:58 .

[Xilizhra]

I consider Hawke absurdly incompetent because it's something he always does. When faced with Petrice, he does nothing. When Cullen comes to take away Bethany, he does nothing. When Meredith becomes a dictator over Kirkwlal, Hawke does nothing for three entire years. When Grace is going to kill Thrask, he does nothing. So when Hawke, once again, does nothing - I see him as incompetent.

Well, if you're curious about how I explain this...
Petrice: Qunari are a potential threat, and she also doesn't kill except in self-defense, generally.
Cullen: My Hawke's a mage, so no issue there.
Meredith: See my mage timeskip thread for my explanation. The short version is that a mage Hawke couldn't act too openly without jeopardizing her position and benefiting no one.
Grace: I'll give you that one, and I need to think more about it.