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[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

She is also approximately the age of Tamlen. You can make your warden look old, but there is not a single origin where that'd make sense.

Still funny though

I particularly enjoy the human noble origin that way. Create a warden that makes Flemeth look young and the Teyrn still calls you "pup," the guests still go on about your "beauty," ect.

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't forget Merrill's rock armor. And blood magic-enhancing gear.

I wish they made vaccuums that could suck like the last patch...

[Xilizhra]

I wish they made vaccuums that could suck like the last patch...

Oh, right. That was sort of irritating, yes... oh well, it's survivable.

[Macropodmum]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill is around the same age as the Dalish Warden, which means she's likely older than Hawke.

I don't think so.  Hawke is probably 25ish at the start of the game, since Leandra was pregnant when leaving Kirkwall, while the Warden seems to be around 20 at the start of Origins.

I'd say Merrill's a few years older than the Dalish Warden. Also, the Warden's age varies since you can make him look older than Fen'Harel himself if you wanted to.

Which would actually be funny to play an old, forgetful, senile Warden who can apparently kill hordes of Darkspawn, demons, undead, Dragons, etc.

I guess shouting "Get off my lawn!" is more powerful than I thought...

Rofl (they so need a smiley that rolls around laughing!)

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't imagine they'd know she was a mage... Cullen didn't know my Hawke was a mage after watching a torrent of blood magic. Not that it matters, rapists don't tend to be the most intelligent people.

I just don't think that they'd be in much condition to rape.

Y'all know people rape people who are bigger, stronger, and better fighters than them all the time, right? There are really any number of things that could prevent Merrill from tossing a stonefist off, from psychological factors to getting coshed upside the head while she was naively chatting away with a Doglord about how cute his slathering ravenous mabari is. If you're saying "Merrill couldn't get mugged or raped, she's a powerful mage...."

Well, don't. It's perilously close to victim-blaming.

And is pretty weird coming from pro-mage posters to begin with. Lore tells us it takes dozens of templars to take down a single blood mage, that even a normal mage is more than a threat to a single fighter no matter how good he is at Holy Smite. (And DA:O gameplay certainly bears that out, though DA2 is better balanced). Most Circles don't have enough templars on hand to perform an RoA, which means that most Circles would fall if the mages revolted. Does that mean the mages in other Circles are never in danger from the templars, and never likely to be Tranquilled, raped, or otherwise abused? After all, any one mage is stronger than any one templar in a fight, and all of them together are stronger than all the templars, too.

As for the topic... Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because when she goes back to find her, the house is already empty - clean, with no ties. The first time she sees her again is in Act II, and it would be imprudent to gut her in the middle of the Chantry.

Yes, this requires ignoring actual gameplay. Well, so does a lot of DA2. :shrug:

[Xilizhra]

If you're saying "Merrill couldn't get mugged or raped, she's a powerful mage...."

Well, don't. It's perilously close to victim-blaming.

I don't indulge in that. I just found it unlikely; it could happen, and it was a good idea for Varric to go bribing.

Does that mean the mages in other Circles are never in danger from the templars, and never likely to be Tranquilled, raped, or otherwise abused? After all, any one mage is stronger than any one templar in a fight, and all of them together are stronger than all the templars, too.

That would be the psychological factors of preexisting authority at work there. Though I'm not totally sure why it would take dozens of templars to take down one blood mage, as all you'd need to do is Silence them (which can be done in lore; Meredith does it to a Saarebas) and then cut them in half.

[LobselVith8]

Quething wrote...

As for the topic... Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because when she goes back to find her, the house is already empty - clean, with no ties. The first time she sees her again is in Act II, and it would be imprudent to gut her in the middle of the Chantry.

Yes, this requires ignoring actual gameplay. Well, so does a lot of DA2. :shrug:

The house isn't empty when Hawke returns - Sister Petrice and Ser Varnell are inside. Hawke has another opportunity to kill Petrice when he faces the religious zealots being led by Varnell - but Hawke doesn't take care of her, and Hawke's inaction is the reason why the Viscount's son is killed.

[Xilizhra]

I thought Petrice skedaddled immediately upon Varnell attacking.

[Rifneno]

Quething wrote...

As for the topic... Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because when she goes back to find her, the house is already empty - clean, with no ties. The first time she sees her again is in Act II, and it would be imprudent to gut her in the middle of the Chantry.

Yes, this requires ignoring actual gameplay. Well, so does a lot of DA2. :shrug:

The condescending thing only works when you're right. Just some advice.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Though I'm not totally sure why it would take dozens of templars to take down one blood mage, as all you'd need to do is Silence them (which can be done in lore; Meredith does it to a Saarebas) and then cut them in half.

I dunno. Ask Duncan how it plays out, he's seen it in person. Silence does seem to be a relatively short-range ability (compared to a staff attack anyway), and it is pretty high in the tree. Maybe only templars who've been training for years can do it.

Actually I've noticed a fairly common claim here on the forums that templar magic is less effective/ineffective against blood magic, hence there's a certain legitimacy to the use of blood magic as a tool of rebellion even from a "blood magic is evil" perspective. I'm not sure where people are getting that from but it would fit decently with the lore.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Quething wrote...

As for the topic... Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because when she goes back to find her, the house is already empty - clean, with no ties. The first time she sees her again is in Act II, and it would be imprudent to gut her in the middle of the Chantry.

Yes, this requires ignoring actual gameplay. Well, so does a lot of DA2. :shrug:

The house isn't empty when Hawke returns - Sister Petrice and Ser Varnell are inside. Hawke has another opportunity to kill Petrice when he faces the religious zealots being led by Varnell - but Hawke doesn't take care of her, and Hawke's inaction is the reason why the Viscount's son is killed.

Yes. Which is why you'll notice I mentioned ignoring actual gameplay.

Modifié par Quething, 22 août 2011 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually I've noticed a fairly common claim here on the forums that templar magic is less effective/ineffective against blood magic, hence there's a certain legitimacy to the use of blood magic as a tool of rebellion even from a "blood magic is evil" perspective. I'm not sure where people are getting that from but it would fit decently with the lore.

Templar techniques seem to involve cutting off the Fade, which blood magic doesn't rely on.

[Wulfram]

The Kirkwall Templars were apparently quite capable of curbstomping their imprisoned mages.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Templar techniques seem to involve cutting off the Fade, which blood magic doesn't rely on.

Isn't the mana/health switch just a gameplay convention (like Silence working on dwarven assassins)? Blood magic seems quite intimately tied to the Fade, given the whole demon-summoning thing. Though admittedly there's nothing in the lore that requires blood mages to summon shades and undead....

Modifié par Quething, 22 août 2011 - 02:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Templar techniques seem to involve cutting off the Fade, which blood magic doesn't rely on.

Isn't the mana/health switch just a gameplay convention (like Silence working on dwarven assassins)? Blood magic seems quite intimately tied to the Fade, given the whole demon-summoning thing. Though admittedly there's nothing in the lore that requires blood mages to summon shades and undead....

Blood magic is good at ripping open the Fade, but doesn't really draw on the Fade's power.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I thought Petrice skedaddled immediately upon Varnell attacking.

She does but there is only so fast you can skedaddle in a dress and it'd be a simple matter of Hawke turning to the 3 people he/she brought with him/her and saying, "Hold them off while I deal with her quick."  Hell Hawke can one punch a Qunari he/she cold probably beat Petrice to death with his/her bare hands in under a minute.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I thought Petrice skedaddled immediately upon Varnell attacking.

She does but there is only so fast you can skedaddle in a dress and it'd be a simple matter of Hawke turning to the 3 people he/she brought with him/her and saying, "Hold them off while I deal with her quick."  Hell Hawke can one punch a Qunari he/she cold probably beat Petrice to death with his/her bare hands in under a minute.

Ranged weapons are lovely aren't they?  And freeze spells?  She would have trouble outrunning any number of attacks.

There really isn't any good reason presented why Hawke shouldn't be able to take out Petrice in that scene.  It is very frustrating. 

They could have told basically the same story by just having Petrice go and leave a few Templars behind to take out Hawke should Hawke manage to survive the "suicide" mission.  Having Petrice right there in the room but protected by plot armor is just frustrating.

[LobselVith8]

Blood magic is the only type of magic that can't be nullified by templars, which is given as the reason why some mages turn to it. Also, it's stated that blood magic isn't tied to deals with spirits or demons, only the physical, which is why some mages become blood mages (which isn't tied to game mechanics if it's listed as the reason why some mages use this particular brand of magic).

[dragonflight288]

How about this. If Hawke killed Petrice at any of those moments....he would be committing an unjustified murder because Hawke cannot honestly say she attacked him, sicked the templars or the rioters on him, and doesn't even have proof that Petrice is involved. Knowing she's involved and proving it to the courts (who conveniently let mad murderers go free if their father is a magistrate) is another matter entirely. Hawke has nothing until he catches Petrice red-handed in the death of Sebastian.

If Petrice is killed at all up to that point, Hawke would be arrested and likely executed for a murder. And he can't claim her involvement because there is no proof.

Hawke is powerful, but ignoring gameplay, one man/woman cannot destroy the entire army of templars and city-guards by themself. And Aveline does beat the snot out of Hawke in Act 3 if rivaled.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...
How about this. If Hawke killed Petrice at any of those moments....he would be committing an unjustified murder because Hawke cannot honestly say she attacked him, sicked the templars or the rioters on him, and doesn't even have proof that Petrice is involved. Knowing she's involved and proving it to the courts (who conveniently let mad murderers go free if their father is a magistrate) is another matter entirely. Hawke has nothing until he catches Petrice red-handed in the death of Sebastian.

1) True but there's this wonderful thing Hawke has the option to do quite a lot of which is LIE.  It's your word against a room full of corpses that Petrice wasn't the one who told Varnell and co. to kill you.  She kept Varnell around as a personal bodyguard for the better part of 3 years at least, somebody had to have known of that relationship, so it's not hard to sell the fact that he was acting on her orders (especially when she's dead and can't defend herself with semantics).

Or if you think that's still too hard a sell how about, "Petrice was concerned that Varnell's actions were getting out of hand, she had me come with her to attempt to rein him in and one of his followers killed her."  An arrow to the back is an arrow to the back and medieval ballistics leaves a lot to be desired.

2) Maker I wish. (I do realize you meant Saemus but a man can dream can't he)

dragonflight288 wrote...
If Petrice is killed at all up to that point, Hawke would be arrested and likely executed for a murder.

 
You say that like Hawke never commits a crime in the years he/she's in Kirkwall.  Hell the Captain of the Guard can be an accomplice to so many of your crimes it's not funny.

[Neminea]

Not so easy to just dismiss the murder if it was a chantry sister (aka an important person). Even if you could prove afterwards what she was doing you'd still be jailed for taking matters into your own hands.

On another note: a couple of pages back people seem really upset over the last line of Anders in Legacy. Wether I agree with him or not, I did find that character progression. Anders having a bit of doubt. He doesn't act on it in the normal game after you finish it, just a moment of doubt. Since one of the complaints I see on this forum about Fenris and Anders the most is that they don't ever progress or adjust their way of thinking, I don't understand why this one moment of doubt is so bad.

To me, it made Anders seem more human. Instead of the spirit hybred, a show that the human Anders was before is still there. I liked that moment of doubt a lot, and found it one of the most touching scenes with him.

[GavrielKay]

Neminea wrote...
Not so easy to just dismiss the murder if it was a chantry sister (aka an important person). Even if you could prove afterwards what she was doing you'd still be jailed for taking matters into your own hands.

Doesn't Petrice specifically pick Hawke as a relative nobody who can't be traced back to her?  Remember Petrice is violating Chantry law here.  I doubt she's gone around telling all the other Sisters and Mothers what she's about and who with.  A few bodies in a random lowtown hovel might be more mysterious if one of them is a Sister, but I hardly think Hawke would be the automatic target of any investigation.  There's a zillion thugs and even some Qunari wandering around there.

[TEWR]

she should've just killed herself and framed the Qunari for it.

[dragonflight288]

2) Maker I wish. (I do realize you meant Saemus but a man can dream can't he)

Yes, I did mean Seamus. Ah well, still sounded good with Sebastian.

Doesn't Petrice specifically pick Hawke as a relative nobody who can't be traced back to her? Remember Petrice is violating Chantry law here. I doubt she's gone around telling all the other Sisters and Mothers what she's about and who with. A few bodies in a random lowtown hovel might be more mysterious if one of them is a Sister, but I hardly think Hawke would be the automatic target of any investigation. There's a zillion thugs and even some Qunari wandering around there.

I like to roleplay that she was acting on Elthina's name. Saying she was proselytizing to lowtown. You do see Chantry sisters down there after all. And who's to say Varnell was the only one around. She did have some city guards help kidnap the Qunari in Act 2 as well. Considering how careful she is throughout the game, I highly suspect her of arranging more than just Varnell as protection and witness if things went awry.

Or at least, that's how I roleplay it.

[GavrielKay]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I like to roleplay that she was acting on Elthina's name. Saying she was proselytizing to lowtown. You do see Chantry sisters down there after all. And who's to say Varnell was the only one around. She did have some city guards help kidnap the Qunari in Act 2 as well. Considering how careful she is throughout the game, I highly suspect her of arranging more than just Varnell as protection and witness if things went awry.

Or at least, that's how I roleplay it.

I disagree. 

She knows she's acting against Chantry law.  She knows Elthina wouldn't approve.  And she's gone to a bit of trouble to bring Hawke to a lowtown hovel (isn't it at night?) where there's a secret passage.  She wants to start a war without being implicated.  The fewer witnesses the better.  Varnell is obviously a highly trusted cohort - not just some randomly assigned guard for the night.

[dragonflight288]

Yet she always seems to find fanatics who support her cause despite all evidence that she's wrong.

[GavrielKay]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yet she always seems to find fanatics who support her cause despite all evidence that she's wrong.

In a place as messed up as Kirkwall, finding fanatics is probably like finding sand on the beach.

The way Petrice spoke and plotted for Sheparding Wolves always gave me the impression that it was a fairly secret thing she was up to.  Perhaps she got more bold later as war failed to break out for years on end, but for that Act 1 quest, I felt she was keeping her involvement very quiet.