30 réponses à ce sujet

[C Barchuk]

I mean every module I've seen is for low levels on up to maybe the teens. Don't get me wrong, I find the lower levels to be the most fun. At any rate if there isn't alot of material for the uber character levels like that, what's the point of even having it? I assume for online play?

Modifié par C Barchuk, 20 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[Shadooow]

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

[MrZork]

There are lots of modules that cover epic levels. Take a look at this thread and see. And, there are many persistant worlds with epic levels as well...

[WebShaman]

IMHO (and many others, as I have seen often on teh interwebs) Epic levels in D&D are sooooo broken, it ain't funny!

Basically, as a D20 game, it "breaks down" over level 20. Either you attempt to "lessen the impact" by stopping BAB progression (ala 3.0 NWN) OR you totally go overboard and continue it (ala 3.5 NWN2). Either way, it introduces such imbalances that they are just not "fixable".

I personally only find Epic levels applicable in a sort of Outer Planes type setting, where one is dealing with Great Powers (like Gods, elemental and pivotal forces of the Universe, etc). This normally has less to do with actual types of combat, and more to do with actual moral and/or conundrum type decisions that have massive impact on everything.

[C Barchuk]

Yea that makes sense. The problem is I mainly only play single player. What made me think of about this was the fact that I'm wanting to level a character all the way to 40. After browsing through some of the community modules out there I didn't come across barely anything in the higher levels. I'm sitting thinking to myself, how am I going to actually get to level 40?...lol. Now I didn't look through every single module and I've been away from the game for a long time so my memory is a bit fuzzy but it just made me stop and think for a minute. Your right about broken levels beyond 20 WebShaman. As you know I've been seeking advice on a rogue or assassin build. I took a couple of prospects and made level 40 versions of them in a character builder. The toughest enemies at that point I think are ancient dragons. The level 40 characters could kill them pretty easily which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me from a RP stand point. Now NWN2(which I don't like as much) only goes up to level 30. Does that make epic levels not so broken or is it the same either way? Just curious

[C Barchuk]

MrZork wrote...

There are lots of modules that cover epic levels. Take a look at this thread and see. And, there are many persistant worlds with epic levels as well...

Yea I see though most don't look to be very good. I appreciate the link though and will look through it some more later. What I mean by doesn't look very good is comparing the few I read to the Hall of Fame modules. I guess I'm looking for the BG experience in every adventure I play regardless of level. Alot are pvp or throws you against countless numbers of enemies. Also what does it mean by "DM required or occasional DM required?"

Modifié par C Barchuk, 20 août 2011 - 01:59 .

[C Barchuk]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

Excuse my lack of knowlege there but are PW's the equivalent to like World of Warcraft though I hate to use that comparsion? I haven't played anything other single player.

[Elhanan]

Because not all of us enjoy playing lowbies?

I long for Bane of Enemies, Epic Dmg Reduction, Epic Dodge, etc, and tire of goblinoids, vermin, and the like ruining a morning walk.

[HipMaestro]

It becomes an even worse nightmare trying to balance the H&S with all the uber gear available that caps all abilities and skills or imparts capabilities (even epic ones) for classes that would never have access to them otherwise.  Then the hostiles must be customized to be made so difficult that a party of 8 is needed to dispatch them.

I agree that most epic environments are a runaway train with the designer(s) and DMs scrambling to maintain some balance.  The best D&D "feel" has pre-epic caps, for me anyway.  I'll pass on wall-to-wall, artifically contrived demilichs to test my mettle and leave the vicarious experience to others more attuned to that level of enjoyment. There are plenty of them.

[C Barchuk]

I definitely hear ya. I would love to play an epic adventure that was both challenging and fun but I've yet to play one. The only time I ever even played with the higher level abilities was in HotU...lol. Now I just returned to game from many years away so I'm not as familiar with things.

[C Barchuk]

HipMaestro wrote...

It becomes an even worse nightmare trying to balance the H&S with all the uber gear available that caps all abilities and skills or imparts capabilities (even epic ones) for classes that would never have access to them otherwise.  Then the hostiles must be customized to be made so difficult that a party of 8 is needed to dispatch them.

I agree that most epic environments are a runaway train with the designer(s) and DMs scrambling to maintain some balance.  The best D&D "feel" has pre-epic caps, for me anyway.  I'll pass on wall-to-wall, artifically contrived demilichs to test my mettle and leave the vicarious experience to others more attuned to that level of enjoyment. There are plenty of them.

I agree with you. I play this game for the role-playing, adventure part of it. Some prefer pure hack and slash which is cool too. I just haven't played anything beyond HotU that was for higher levels but still had a great story. I'm also not really interested in the PvP part either. If wanted to do that I would just go back to playing WoW which I really don't want to do...lol.

[Shadooow]

C Barchuk wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

Excuse my lack of knowlege there but are PW's the equivalent to like World of Warcraft though I hate to use that comparsion? I haven't played anything other single player.

If you havent tried how you can know its like WoW?

I didnt played WoW so I cant tell you but it seems to me that you are just biased.

[Elhanan]

Caereena: KR, Aielund IV+, and Sands of Fate series were all entertaining, Epic playgrounds that gave me several hours of fun, and replay value for trying various builds.

Then after solo play, the World of Aenea PW has given me a few years of fun to try various Epic builds, and is quite enjoyable from 1st to 40th+.

For a more customized experience, I recommend a small scale campaign with other like-minded players and a DM or two; kept me occupied for 5 yrs. My intel states that Neverwinter Connections may be a way to go if this has appeal.

[C Barchuk]

Elhanan, thanks for the recommendations bud. I will definitely try those out. So what is a PW like? I mean is basically like an MMO? I think I would love to try out out a campaign with a small group online. That sounds like a blast. I don't really have friends that play this game so I guess I would to try and find some like-minded friends lol.

[C Barchuk]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

C Barchuk wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

Excuse my lack of knowlege there but are PW's the equivalent to like World of Warcraft though I hate to use that comparsion? I haven't played anything other single player.

If you havent tried how you can know its like WoW?

I didnt played WoW so I cant tell you but it seems to me that you are just biased.

I don't know for sure. I'm just making an assumption. Playing in a virtual world with other players like an MMO. That's just what these PW's sound like to me. I don't mean that in a negative way. I could be wrong of course. I won't know till I give it a try which I just may do.

Modifié par C Barchuk, 20 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[Skildron]

HipMaestro wrote...

It becomes an even worse nightmare trying to balance the H&S with all the uber gear available that caps all abilities and skills or imparts capabilities (even epic ones) for classes that would never have access to them otherwise.  Then the hostiles must be customized to be made so difficult that a party of 8 is needed to dispatch them.

Why? You are a very experienced character - usually the annoying confrontation with someone below your level is beyond your notice. But if he insists - then one hit with your fist/weapon or one arrow or spell sorts this out - once and for all. That from a RP point of view. And there are of course villains that keep you occupied.

I think the issue is that at that kind of experience and power one no longer is a front line fighter but a someone who commands other people to do his biding - that's why many epic level modules just feel not right.

Is there any epic module that makes you command others instead of going there yourself - and allowing you to plot and think ahead? But this kind of play would probably need a DM and PnP play.

Greetings
Skildron

[Elhanan]

C Barchuk wrote...

Elhanan, thanks for the recommendations bud. I will definitely try those out. So what is a PW like? I mean is basically like an MMO? I think I would love to try out out a campaign with a small group online. That sounds like a blast. I don't really have friends that play this game so I guess I would to try and find some like-minded friends lol.

Have never played on any MMO, so I do not know the feel of these settings.

However, I know the much lower populations of PW's make for a more managable situaltion for the DM's, much like a class with fewer students. And PW's vary in many factors: style, lvls, rules, etc. Take a look around using your own parameters using reviews, recommendations, etc, and see if a few sound appealing, and give them a shot. Most if not all the PW's I have visted have been cordial and helpful to the newcomers, and Forums, Players, and Staff are often available for info, tips, etc.

My experience on PW's is rather limited, so seek other recommendations, too. Personally, I like the freedom of design, the choice on restrictions, and general playstyle that Aenea has to offer, as well as the treasure vault full of gadgets, gizmo's and additions that are available there. Other worlds should have their own attractions, and strong points to sell; some with more RP emphasis, while others may offer higher powered gear, builds, PRC's, etc

That said, the small tailored campaign is the closest to the PnP experience I have seen, as RP and combat are all managed by close hands on DM care.

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

C Barchuk wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point is to allow builders to make module for these levels. Also 99% of the online modules (PWs) are up to lvl 40.

Excuse my lack of knowlege there but are PW's the equivalent to like World of Warcraft though I hate to use that comparsion? I haven't played anything other single player.

If you havent tried how you can know its like WoW?

I didnt played WoW so I cant tell you but it seems to me that you are just biased.

Dude, he's asking whether, by any chance, NWN PWs are something alike to WoW MMORPG environment.

The answer is yes and no. PWs are a more or less open MP environment going from hack and slash to RP to PvP (solo or team) with a limited number of player slots; basically it's an online module, up for MP play, of a dynamical nature with live DMs interacting with the players (and players interacting with themselves and the module of course). PW stands for Persistant World btw and it implies persistancy of the characters you use there (which in 90% if not more o fthe cases are created and saved on the server hosting the PW, which means you can' timport your local characters).

[Krazy Solo]

Well if you want to get to lvl 40 while playing single player you could try doing SoU - > HotU - > OC... Of the three OC seems to scale better for higher lvl character play than the previous two. Although most of the boss battles will seem easier than say if you was normally playing through.

[WhiZard]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Well if you want to get to lvl 40 while playing single player you could try doing SoU - > HotU - > OC... Of the three OC seems to scale better for higher lvl character play than the previous two. Although most of the boss battles will seem easier than say if you was normally playing through.

Due to ECL, if you try the OC with one class over 20, the XP will jump tremendously for kills.

[C Barchuk]

The OC scales with level? Cool, I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip

[WebShaman]

First of all, there are NO Mods available that do Epic levels real justice.

None.

The reason being, it is just too dang hard to really do all the work! First of all, you need that Epic story. That means doing all the places (and much Outer Planes stuff), dialogs, etc. Massive amount of work there alone! Then you have to try to balance it all, somehow, so that the character in question actually feels something of an Epic challenge.

About the ONLY "mod" that has done this, is HG (Higher Ground). Mostly a H&S environment, however. A very challenging one, tbh, but it is H&S (correct me if I am wrong, Funky). The amount of work involved in creating HG and the Legendary Levels system must have been horrendous to the point of exhaustion, especially when one thinks of all the balancing issues that Epic levels alone brings into the equation - now add in the Legendary Levels, and one can see what a headache that must have been!

I have yet to encounter any other environment where Epic levels are truly set into the Environment. Most are just "scaled up" encounters from pre-Epic levels.

NWN2 does this incredibly bad - Epic Gnolls, anyone? I mean, it is just ludicrous! E-P-I-C Gnolls! Why haven't they overthrown their Red Wizard masters already (who are lower level), and conquered Faerun?

Totally ridiculous!

NWN2 only goes to level 30. That is correct. And yet, because of BAB continuing to scale in Epic levels, it is horridly broken! Imagine that scaled another 10 levels! 40 levels of BAB progression??!!!

Ah wanna be uh Monk, yessiree! So, let me see, how many attacks is that? Whatcha mean, the Engine just blew up?

As for the RP environment in Epic levels, though I hate to say this, Planescape : Torment did an Epic RP environment FLAWLESSLY. It is the pinnacle to reach for, IMHO.

And no, I am not a Planescape fan!

[Pstemarie]

Well said Webshaman. When it comes to EPIC Levels, only a few monsters really fit the bill: dragons, beholder-mages, liches, vampires, planars - you get the idea. However, even these need to be scaled up considerably just to challenge one Epic character. Imagine scaling them for a party of Epic characters!

[Shadooow]

Pstemarie wrote...

Well said Webshaman. When it comes to EPIC Levels, only a few monsters really fit the bill: dragons, beholder-mages, liches, vampires, planars - you get the idea. However, even these need to be scaled up considerably just to challenge one Epic character. Imagine scaling them for a party of Epic characters!

I agree with most of what you said WebShaman too however your critique for "epic" monsters is not rightful imo.

Since there is as Pstemarie wrote only few really epic monsters if you start creating an epic module soon you use all of them. Custom content like CEP adds more but most of them is very specific. So you will have no choice than reuse some default creatures and scale them for epic levels. Which is what most module creators out there does.

Anyway, who say that gnolls mustnt be higher than their are per PnP? Really I dont agree with this, because if you dont change creature's power you end up with zombies, goblins, kobold, orcs, mumies, lizards, wolves, bears, ghosts. Pretty much generic module whose are thousands out there. I got enough of these modules.

[Elhanan]

Have to smile when I recall the Epic Kobolds of C:KR, and contend against the Destroyer Orcs of Aenea. I enjoy seeing super, unique, mutated versions of foes I may have become complacent over in the normal realms.

I detest PvP, and do not believe throwing down against other Players is a valid way of proving much of anything. I will take versatility over a heavy hitter most of the time; a major factor in my sense of enjoyment. While a Skill heavy Epic build may not be able to match up in arenas, they work wonders in environs, solo or with others.

Modifié par Elhanan, 21 août 2011 - 05:17 .