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[whykikyouwhy]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Actually, that makes sense. You separate one from the whole, and you weaken the whole. Or, you knock off one leg of the piñata early and you lose some of the big climactic impact when the candy-stuffed middle section is cracked open.

I concur, but why would Flemeth go out of her way to do this?

The big nasty fireworks in the sky, shadows crossed the land battle is probably going to happen, and Flemeth knows this. She may be an old or older god herself (or one of their avatars). It could be that she is trying to ally herself with the gods or their powers - even the odds in favor of her own survival (or for some other reason). 

To expand my hallucinagenic-induced theory (not really...it's lack of sleep-induced) the person(s) in close proximity to the piñata when it's cracked open are strategically placed to get the most out of it - to shove the other kids away and make the mad scramble for the candies. So, if Flemeth is already sneaking candy out of a broken paper-mache leg, she's already reaping the rewards - and is better prepared for the fight.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gnas wrote...

Because Flemeth is the Maker?

But that would be a bit masocistic with my piñata theory.

If she's part and party to the Maker-combo, then she could be gathering bits of herself to do another grand phoenix rising show. But if that were the case, she'd be going about it really methodical-like.

Unless it's all about timing.

[whykikyouwhy]

I think she is more concerned with the universe continuing and surviving than anything else. Second comes her place in it - she's lived a long number of years for one reason or another, but she seems to be fond of actually existing.

Her interaction with the heroes we already know (Maric, the Warden, Hawke) is intentional. She needs them for something - for an event that has already occured, for an event far in the future, or for some seemingly innocuous thing that they simply helped set in motion. She's playing chess. She knows what moves she wants to make, she knows the ultimate goal, so she's setting up the board in just the right way so that she can eventually declare "mate."

It's not world domination though - it's one-upsmanship against whatever threatens to crush the world completely. She's prophesized about change - change could crush the world, but for her, that sort of change means transition. She wants transition, but she wants mankind to not **ck it up, I think.

[Augustei]

Exicuren wrote...

Well, I was playing DA:O a month ago because I meant to create a mage warden playthrough for DA2 to change somethings to DA2, when I was playing in the alienage after all the plague thing, I chose the "something wicked quest.

When I was at the end of the quest, when the demon appears, for the first time I actually listened to what the demon said and I found it interesting, it said: "The maker? There is no maker. There is no Golden City. But there are demons, yesss..."
What I found interesting is that the demon never denies the existence of Andraste as a divine entity.

So, when I played Legacy in DA2, corypheus says something similar: "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves." " But it was.. black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

After I heard this I put some common sence and reached the conclusion that if the dempn and corypheus are right about the Golden city never been black, then the maker doesn't exists aswell, so the truly divine entity is Andraste and not the so called maker

You can check the dialogs in these videos:

youtu.be/Y81Fz7WvFeU
and
youtu.be/TgQWBzPAewU at 5:40

God cannot exist without heaven? I find this concept difficult to grasp and dont know why if the maker exists there needs to be a golden city for him to exist? Also the makers existance is simply unknown to demons, they cannot truly say whether or not he exists as justice points out in awakening. Andraste was a real person within the mortal realm that walked among people, her existence isnt debatable whereas the makers is.

Also how can the golden city being black before the magisters got there conclude there is no maker? it doesn't mean anything other than if this place was once heaven it is not any longer. Perhaps it never was the golden city they entered? Perhaps someone corrupted it before corypheus and the magisters.

Imo there is not enough evidence to conclude whether or not the maker is real or not as of yet.. Perhaps there never will be

[Rifneno]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Its probable that the demon in "Something Wicked" was taunting Otto. We've no evidence that Demons are incapable of lying.

Indeed, we actually have direct evidence that demons can and do lie. Torpor and Kitty off the top of my head are blatant liars. Many believe that Audacity was full of crap also.

Haradmir wrote...

I don't want them to tell us anything for a long, long time. Speculating and arguing over it is too much fun.

If you wait too long to give the answers, people just don't care anymore. If they never said who shot JR, and they told us tomorrow, no one would care. This is my biggest concern with Dragon Age. We all thought Witch Hunt was an advertisement for DA2 because it just left us hungry for answers about the OGB and eluvians. Aside from one companion's obsessive-compulsive disorder these weren't even involved in DA2. Let's say it's about two and half years between sequels (roughly what Mass Effect is making). If they give us just one more game without addressing, say, Morrigan's ritual then that means we're looking at another four and a half years. How many people do you think are still going to give a crap then? Only the most hardcore fans and even most of them will be asking "who?" by then.

As to the OP, I don't think the Maker is real for literary reasons. There's basically two types of gods. One is simply an extremely powerful being. They have limited intelligence and knowledge, often as much as any regular person if they had the same superpowers, they have a limited amount of power and are usually hungry for more. This type is usually real on RPG's. In fact killing them for being dicks has been a staple of RPG's since the hardware to play the latest game was "a pencil and paper." The other kind is more along the lines of Judeo-Christian beliefs of God. It has nearly unlimited understanding of everything, sometimes totally omniscient, and has no hunger for more power because it can already do anything. I say "it" because this type rarely has a gender. Why would it need one? Genders are for the reproduction of life forms but this type of deity is so far beyond us it's insulting (to it) to even consider such base similarities.

Simply put, the Maker is type #2 whereas the elven pantheon and Tevinter's old dragon gods are #1. I won't say #2 never turns out to be real in fiction, but it's pretty damn rare. I can't recall of a single one. Not because writers have a bias against religion but because such a being serves no purpose. It can't be a villain because it can't be killed or even banished. It can't be an ally to the heroes because if it supported them why not just instantly eradicate the bad guys by itself? So the only option is to say such an entity sits on the sidelines and watches without getting involved. But then you're left having to give an answer to why it would do that. Once you're done with that question which atheists have been throwing at every religion since Stonehenge was built, you have to come up with a reason that this being is in the story in the first place. Which is pretty hard to do since, as we've already established, it's not getting involved in the protagonist's struggles.

[Neminea]

Zanallen wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Huh?

I dont know where you got this idea from, but I certainly havent heard anything about Dragon Age only having 3-4 major installments.

The only reason I see them stopping is if the game proves to not be profitable anymore, or when they reach the end of the actual Dragon Age, which could go on hundreds of years.

Bioware has never made a franchise with more than two games in it. ME3 will be the first. They aren't really known for long franchises. Plus, DA2 already took a large hit to total sales. The game was still quite profitable, but the total number of people who bought it is far lower than it was for the first game. It is yet to be seen if DA3 can bring those customers back. Plus, there is the issue with TOR. EA has placed a lot of money into Bioware's upcoming MMO. If it doesn't do well, Bioware is bound to take a major blow.

This just made me sad

[Anyroad2]

Neminea wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Huh?

I dont know where you got this idea from, but I certainly havent heard anything about Dragon Age only having 3-4 major installments.

The only reason I see them stopping is if the game proves to not be profitable anymore, or when they reach the end of the actual Dragon Age, which could go on hundreds of years.

Bioware has never made a franchise with more than two games in it. ME3 will be the first. They aren't really known for long franchises. Plus, DA2 already took a large hit to total sales. The game was still quite profitable, but the total number of people who bought it is far lower than it was for the first game. It is yet to be seen if DA3 can bring those customers back. Plus, there is the issue with TOR. EA has placed a lot of money into Bioware's upcoming MMO. If it doesn't do well, Bioware is bound to take a major blow.

This just made me sad

I wouldnt worry to much about it.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I like the idea of the Maker not actually existing because I hate the Chantry and it would be amusing if their beliefs were based on fairy tales. The Chantry are a bunch of preachy, bigoted, self-righteous prigs, for the most part and I would love nothing better than to see the whole organization, especially the Templars knocked down a peg.

As an added bonus, it would be great if the heretical belief that Andraste was a mage turned out to be true.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 05 novembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Trolldrool]

There are a lot of scenes in both games that suggest that there is no divine creator that watches over everyone, and that if there are such things as gods, they've had very little part in the great events attributed to the Maker. Lyrium radiation always seem to be connected in some form or another. Personally, I didn't think of it until the hunt for the sacred ashes and Oghren comments on how lyrium saturates the hall in which the ashes are held.

On the other hand the guardian has stood there vigilant for centuries with neither sustenance or sleep, though probably a lot of "I spy" and "Ten thousand bottles of beer on the wall.". In addition to somehow having knowledge to events that happened to other characters. It could of course be argued that the lyrium in the walls, coupled with his intense faith, allowed him to continue to exist on sheer willpower and also give him the ability to read the minds of those who stand before him, but he never adresses those events in such a manner. More as if he's seen the events himself from an observer's perspective.

I hope it's never settled completely one way or the other. It's the mystery that makes it interesting.

[darkiddd]

Because a demon saying there's no maker is being completely honest. Who wouldn't trust him?

You know, it is much more easy to do evil when you convince yourself or others that everything is a matter of perspective and there's no real evil or good. What better way to do that than to say there are no gods or god.

Although the god of dragon age (the maker) is a complete jerk so I wouldn't say he is a symbol of pure good.

[Trolldrool]

At least he's honest about being a complete jerk. The Chantry says it all the time. He's turned his back on us.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Out of all the Maker threads to resurrect from the dead, The Teryn of Whatever decides to resurrect one with an annoying error in the title...

And where's this stuff about The Maker being a jerk coming from anyway? He turned his back on the world because of their sins. If he wanted to be a jerk he could easily play an active role in hurting people like the evil gods of D&D do.

Quite frankly The Maker doesn't owe the world anything. "He created it" isn't a good argument either because the world manages itself.

The elven gods on the otherhand abandoned their people because they interacted with humans, took their immortality away and let them be raped and sold into slavery. Yeah I think they're the jerks not The Maker whose only prophet was burned at the stake.

The only thing that that I find strange about The Maker is how it's said that Andraste is his bride. Bride in what way? Does he literally love her the way that a man loves his wife? That's odd if that's so as all of creation is supposed to be his "children" as the Chant of Light proclaims.

Oh and another good thing about the Chant is that it includes every race unlike the elven gods who were content to watch their worshipers - even the faithful ones - be raped by humans and sold into slavery which brings up the question of; do these elven gods even exist after all? If so are they truly gods? Perhaps they were even killed which means that they weren't true gods. Maybe they were demons/spirits who some templar killed one day after becoming trapped in the Fade.

Either way, I would attack the elven gods over The Maker as they seem to be the true evil. If The Maker isn't good then he's neutral. The Maker abandoned the world over the sins of creation whereas the elven gods abandoned their people because they began interacting with humans so I think they're the jerks.

[Trolldrool]

The point of this thread isn't so much which god is worse than the other, as it is that a lot seems to be attributed to the Maker that could easily be explained by the vast amounts of lyrium or magi that always seem to be involved. Of course, to even be able to discuss the subject requires a near omniscient knowledge on Thedas lore which only us the players are privy to, so the NPCs can't be blamed for their beliefs one way or the other.

The Chantry says that the Tevinter magisters who were able to transfer their physical bodies into the Fade to the Golden City, destroyed heaven with their sinful corporeal presence and were cast out, disfigured and twisted into the first Darkspawn. However there are sources in the games that reveal that many of the Tevinter magisters had been so excessively exposed to lyrium for so long that they no longer resembled humans at all, which could indicate they looked like Darkspawn to begin with and that it was no vengeful transformation from a divine maker.

The natural catastrophes that befell the Tevinter imperium during Andraste's rebellion could be divine judgement, but it could also simply be an implausibly high number of natural catastrophes that struck at the same time, or be the work of an exceptionally powerful mage, which it has been theorized again in in-game sources, that Andraste was.

It's the Maker's existence and/or active involvement that's discussed here, not whether he's worthy of worship or his moral stance compared to other deities. The jerk comment is mostly, I think, because he is portrayed by his own followers as an omnipotent divine creator who decided to turn his back on his entire creation due to the actions of a few, thus abandoning all responsibility.

[Exicuren]

darkiddd wrote...

Because a demon saying there's no maker is being completely honest. Who wouldn't trust him?

You know, it is much more easy to do evil when you convince yourself or others that everything is a matter of perspective and there's no real evil or good. What better way to do that than to say there are no gods or god.

Although the god of dragon age (the maker) is a complete jerk so I wouldn't say he is a symbol of pure good.

Well, i consider that demons are capable to say the truth if it that helps them to corrupt other people. Most of them in DA:O were dishonest, but in DA2 they recurred to the truth and deceit to make Hawke's allies to fight againts each other.