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[Tajtusek]

/walloftext

EDIT - REASON 6 ADDED

 First of all we wll be discussing the point view of 100% Paragon Shepard the Renegade one would probably be a d*ck about it.... and I know I will prorobaly get angry responses for saying this or even this thread may get deleted, but I have to say it - it was bugging me since the first playthrough. 

Reason 1..

THE SUICIDE MISSION WASN'T EVEN NECESSARY

Let me explain...

Shepard gets the hard evidence that it was the Collectors attacking the Human colonies. He isn't fond of working with Cerberus so he forwards the evidence to the Alliance. Finally Alliance has those hard evidence what's exactly is going on with the Human colonies plus they know where the threat is coming from. So they "blockade" the Omega 4 Relay. Blockading a Relay could be hard so they send scout ships that monitor the relay mass core activity. When the relay starts to glow, an Alliance predator fleet (that was waiting outside the system so not cause alarm) jumps in and takes the Collector cruiser down. Remember the Collector ship could be damaged by a Guardian turret system, and could be destroyed by a Normandy without any upgrades - so it isn't some all powerful ship. Multiple Alliance ships could destroy it. Hell they could've even rigged transport ships with nukes on board that would do a kamikaze run into the Collector ship. 

And yeah I know the counter arguments that can arise here. 
a) Terminus Systems aren't in the Alliance jurisdiction - but defending their species is and just "blockading" a Relay that nobody uses anyway wouldn't be so terrible. They built turrets systems in the Systems and sent cruisers into Batarian territory (Cerberus Daily news) when they deemed it necessary so why not this? 
Shepard wouldn't learn what Reapers are planning for the humans - True. But we are nor discussing the benefits he got from the suicide mission - we are discussing the matter if accepting the suicide mission was a first logical step for Paragon Shepard and it was not. 
c) Alliance probably wouldn't do anything at all - That also may be the case, but don't you think that it would make a more believable reason for Paragon Shepard for working with Cerberus? He sends them hard proof on the Collector activiity. The Alliance does nothing. Shepard joins Cerberus because there is no other way. And without that it's like that - ok, I'll join you I don't have anything to do anyway. Especially frustrating is the fact that later you can send Cerberus secret data to Anderson but you can't send the Collector vid? That's BS! 

Reason 2...

SHEPARD DISREGARDS VALUABLE INTELLIGENCE AND EVIDENCE. 

The Normandy SR-2 comes close to the derelict Reaper. In that exact moment Shepard should shout:
*EDI, scan the frak out of that thing! And take pictures!" 
After that he should call the Turian Councilor and send him the collected data and say:
*Look at my freaking Reaper! Look!*

The scan wouldn't pick up much but with info collected by the Cerberus team they at least would get 3 things. 
- It's big
- It's really old
- It wasn't built by the Geth. 

Would the Council do something? We don't know, but they couldn't say anymore it's a Geth creation. And would have something to think about. 

Through the entire ME1 and ME2 everyone is treating Shepard like the kid that cried wolf - getting evidence should be at this point his first natural reflex. 

Reason 3...

ARE THERE SPECTRES IN IT?

Sadly there is no spectres in the game... (Shepard doesn't count and the spectre from Shadow Broker DLC that intentionally takes place after the Suicide Mission does not either).

In ME1 the spectres were basically Jedi of Mass Effect universe. Working for the council they were getting things done that anyone else couldn't. You would think the Coucnil would send at least one Spectre to investigate what's going on to one of it's member's colonies. But it seemed the writing staff didn't have an idea what to do with the spectres anymore so they marginalized them as much as they could. Giving us a token spectre *Here, have a spectre, and f*ck off" in the Shadow Broker DLC. After ME1 when spectres were the main part of the storyline it's like kick in the balls. It's like watching a Star Wars movie with no Jedi in it. Yes it can be done, but the Jedi are one of the important aspects of that universe. So are spectres in ME universe. Especially after how much fuss they made in the first game about having a spectre. 

Reason 4...

WREX AND WREAV WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? 

In ME2 there is absolutely no consequence in killing Wrex or keeping him alive in ME1. 

If Wrex lives - You have him as a clan leader who is in the process of uniting the Krogan species through peacefull measures and is thankful to you because of you he got the chance to do this. So in ME3 you end up with somewhat united Krogans whose leader is in your debt. 

If Wrex dies - His brother, Wreav, becomes the clan leader and is in the process of uniting the Krogans species through force and is thankful to you because of you he got the chance to do this. So in ME3 you end up with somewhat united Krogans whose leader is in your debt.

Get my drift? That just felt cheap. I hope they will fix it somehow in ME3 but as for now I just want to paraphrase one show...

*Welcome to Mass Effect 2 the game where everything is made up and the choices don't matter*

Reason 5... (Disputable)

MASS RELAYS ARE FRAGILE 

Ok, I'll admit it. I'm not really sure about this one so you can disregard it, but it still felt iffy while playing the game. 

In the Arrival DLC you get to destroy a Mass Relay with an asteroid - basically using the same tactics as the Batarians used in Bring Down The Sky. 

But in ME1 when searching for the Mu Relay you are informed that it was hit by a supernova blast and was lost. One would think that a supernova blast carries a lot more energy than an asteroid and since that Relay survived the supernova.... you see where I'm going with this. 
And what we know from the ME games Relays are placed in the system as an artificial satelite of a star so you can't really justify it by saying that it was far away. Only big stars go supernova and then they are even bigger....

But I'm not really sure about this. I can't be totally wrong here, I just thought a relay would be more durable since one withstood an exploding star. 


Reason 6...

WHAT WAS HARBRINGER'S PLAN EXACTLY.?

I get it, he was trying to build a new Reaper. But from what we can deduct from the ME Incursion comic and what was said in the game itself. The reaper was still an embrio and it would need millions of people more to be finished. And there aren't enough humans in the Terminus Systems. They would have to attack Alliance and Citadel Space colonies. And by doing so they would turn the attention of the galaxy to them. What could one Collector ship do against Turian and Human fleets hunting for it when they'd start abducting humans from Citadel Space? Also, ok somehow they manage to finish their reaper. Now they have to build a fleet at least as big as the one Soverign had to attack the Citadel and bring back the Reapers. How would they do that? It would take years. And I know Reapers are patient but the longer they wait the stronger Human and Turian fleets get. And even if they had the fleet what would they do? Pull the same stunt Soverign did? They can't use the conduit anymore. The keepers aren't responding to them. The Citadel Fleet is stronger than ever. Why not just skip the Collector plan and use the Alpha Relay (from the Arrival DLC) in the first place, when Human and Turian fleets are weakend? And this what ME2 plot should be about really. Not fighting the Collectors through a pointless suicide mission. But trying to stop the Reapers from returning through Alpha Relay. 


That's all folks...

You can call this issues nitpicking if you want, but for me they were critical flaws in the premise of the plot and if a basic premise is flawed the entire logic of the story falls apart. And don't get me wrong I love ME2 I played it 4 times now, the gameplay was awesome but I think the plot is really weak and doesn't hold up to the plot of ME1. I wrote this because I care about ME games. 

TL;DR :

1. Suicide mission wasn't necessary. 
2. Wasted chance of taking evidence from the derelict Reaper.
3. Marginalization of the spectres. 
4. Choices rarely have real consequences.
5. Arrival DLC relay seem too fragile.
6. Harbringer's plan is flawed.
7. I love the game - that is why I'm writing this in the first place.
8. Sorry for my english - it isn't my first language

Modifié par Tajtusek, 20 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[Mr Zoat]

The mass relay in the DLC is some kind of super relay with a much larger than normal range. Since it doesn't have the same design specifications as the others it may well be a lot more fragile.

[Raven4030]

Tajtusek wrote...

Reason 1..

THE SUICIDE MISSION WASN'T EVEN NECESSARY

The alliance barely has the resources to defend their existing colonies let alone set up a blockade. Shepard's adventures don't exist in a vacuum (pun not intended). While the Collectors are doing their thing there are still pirates, slavers, mercenaries, angry batarians, etc. Furthermore, the losses from the Battle of the Citadel means the Alliance has to pick up the slack as news reports indicate the Turians were normally the ones running peacekeeping patrols, but due to heavy casualties are now working in tandem with alliance ships.

Basically, they simply lack the necessary ships to set up a blockade at the Omega-4 relay that could not only stop a collector ship but also repel opportunistic/angry pirates, slaves, mercenaries, batarians, etc.

Reason 2...

SHEPARD DISREGARDS VALUABLE INTELLIGENCE AND EVIDENCE. 

At the end of the game Shepard has a datapad with what looks like technical specs for Harbinger (as it is clearly distinct from Sovereign). He doesn't disregard this intel, in fact he has it stored. One can assume he forwarded it but... well, when has the Council let things like 'facts' and 'evidence' stand in the way of 'dissmissing that claim'?

Reason 3...

ARE THERE SPECTRES IN IT?

There are actually a lot more Jedi than there are Spectres. Of the trillions of lives in the galaxy, less than a hundred have Spectre status. I mean, it stretches the imagination that you would run into Conrad Verner, Liara's dad, and Helena Blake purely by chance while running around, what are the odds of running into another Spectre? Even then, given they have no uniform or anything to distinguish them, you have no way of knowing whether or not somebody is a Spectre. Heck, for all you know Gavorn could have been a Spectre (exaggeration I know, but I can dream can't I?)

Reason 4...

WREX AND WREAV WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? 

Wreav is a traditionalist, Wrex is a reformer. In terms of ME2, there is no difference. However, I expect very different endings for the Krogan depending on who is in charge, though this is purely supposition.

Reason 5... (Disputable)

MASS RELAYS ARE FRAGILE 

I'd say it's like the difference between standing in hurricane force winds and being hit in the face by sheet metal carried by hurricane force winds. At least, that's my guess, I'm not well versed in physics so I can't really explain it.

[Spartan117ce]

Yeah, you're right on da Spectres. Where's Blasto when you need him?

[MrFob]

Hey Raven4030, you wrote pretty much what I'd have written, except for the Arrival relay for which I have my own theory but that is pretty far out there.
Actually I just wanted to add a general comment on the "plot-hole" seekers (I know it has been discussed to death but still):
The problem with most of the suggested plot-holes is that IMO people go about it the wrong way around. Most people call plot-holes when they can come up with some scenario that makes more sense to them and thus say the story as it is told in the game has flaws. Well, fair enough that you can think of something that makes more sense to you but that is not what happened and even if there is no reason given for it on screen, you cannot rule out that there is one. Is that bad storytelling? Maybe but it does not make the story incoherent because you can just as well come up with just as many or more reasons why things could have happened the way they did.
If you want to find real plot-holes, you have to analyse a weirdness and if you cannot come up with any reason why this could happen, you might just have found one.
I'll give you and example of a very minor issue in ME1:
- ME1 takes place within the year 2183. It begins in that year. ME2 takes place in 2185. Avina states in ME2 that you haven't been on the Citadel for more than 2 years so ME1 must have ended 2182 as well. That means the events of ME1 take place within that year.
- The difference between earth years and galactic standard years is minimal (1.043) and for this issue we most likely deal with earth time exclusively anyway.
- Humannity celebrates the anniversary of the end of the first contact war with the Armistice Day once a year
- Ashley asks Shep to toast with her on Armistice Day on the Normandy pretty early in the game. After that you still have to do a couple of missions, put in at least a couple of flight days.
- On the citadel right before you go to Illos, you can see a Terra Firma demonstration in the citadel wards, lead by Charles Saracino who declares that they are marking Armistice Day with a protest.
Now that is a plot-hole as far as I can see. IMO there is no way Armistice Day could uccor twice in the time frame of ME1 and the time between Ash's toast and the demo is too long for both events to happen within one day. If anyone has an explanation please let me know, I am trying to come up with something ever since ME1 now.

Alright, so I'll give you that the Alpha Relay, destroyed by an Asteroid is a very strange event, however there are multiple reasons why this could have occurred. My personal favourite ais that Project rho inside the asteroid has something to do with it but that is just speculation. Reason for all the other points has been given by Raven in detail.
So use your imagination guys, to fill inconsistencies, not to create them.

[d1sciple]

i don't think it needs to be argued all that much, basically the first 2 points and most of the last would render the game finished. so what, you'd play for an hour until the galaxy grew some common sense and the game would end with everyone uniting and saving the day? in actuality it's the most likely scenario, who the hell could deny sovereign existed? sure as hell not the millions on the citadel, but then there would be no game. it's a purposeful dumbing down to give us a developing story. i don't think it's much to do with imagination or plot holes, logically it can't be perfect as then there'd be no game. ME1 had a much simpler story to pull off, four basic story missions, one man trying to find the answers in a big galaxy, easy stuff to draw out and stay believable, ME2 on the other hand is something else. here you've got the same basic heroes journey but it's alot bigger and it has to end up back at the start for it to not only be a game but also lead into the final in the trilogy. basic story writing. you can argue fleet size and council blindness and TIM actually having physical evidence of reapers but if it was too realistic there'd be no game, just a couple minutes text, a cutscene and the end.

[Rajorn]

We don't even know how far away the Mu relay was from the supernova.

[Scimal]

Tajtusek wrote...

Reason 1..

THE SUICIDE MISSION WASN'T EVEN NECESSARY

Let me explain...

Shepard gets the hard evidence that it was the Collectors attacking the Human colonies. He isn't fond of working with Cerberus so he forwards the evidence to the Alliance. Finally Alliance has those hard evidence what's exactly is going on with the Human colonies plus they know where the threat is coming from. So they "blockade" the Omega 4 Relay. Blockading a Relay could be hard so they send scout ships that monitor the relay mass core activity. When the relay starts to glow, an Alliance predator fleet (that was waiting outside the system so not cause alarm) jumps in and takes the Collector cruiser down. Remember the Collector ship could be damaged by a Guardian turret system, and could be destroyed by a Normandy without any upgrades - so it isn't some all powerful ship. Multiple Alliance ships could destroy it. Hell they could've even rigged transport ships with nukes on board that would do a kamikaze run into the Collector ship.

And yeah I know the counter arguments that can arise here. 
a) Terminus Systems aren't in the Alliance jurisdiction - but defending their species is and just "blockading" a Relay that nobody uses anyway wouldn't be so terrible. They built turrets systems in the Systems and sent cruisers into Batarian territory (Cerberus Daily news) when they deemed it necessary so why not this?

Omega isn't just Batarian Territory, it's Smuggler territory. The fleet wouldn't be contending with just the Collectors (which are seen as practically benign, if not excellent trading partners to many), but every rogue ship and every mercenary group that happened through. It wouldn't be worth the resources to maintain the fleet in Omega space, and a handful of ships would get destroyed too easily.

Shepard wouldn't learn what Reapers are planning for the humans - True. But we are nor discussing the benefits he got from the suicide mission - we are discussing the matter if accepting the suicide mission was a first logical step for Paragon Shepard and it was not.

For Paragon Shep, the first logical misstep is accepting to work for Cerberus in the first place and not stealing the Normandy within the first 20 minutes.

c) Alliance probably wouldn't do anything at all - That also may be the case, but don't you think that it would make a more believable reason for Paragon Shepard for working with Cerberus? He sends them hard proof on the Collector activiity. The Alliance does nothing. Shepard joins Cerberus because there is no other way. And without that it's like that - ok, I'll join you I don't have anything to do anyway. Especially frustrating is the fact that later you can send Cerberus secret data to Anderson but you can't send the Collector vid? That's BS!

This ties in with (A) in that if the Alliance doesn't do anything, then Shepard is the only one left to do something. This actually encourages the Suicide Mission, and is an excellent counter-argument.

Reason 2...

SHEPARD DISREGARDS VALUABLE INTELLIGENCE AND EVIDENCE. 

The Normandy SR-2 comes close to the derelict Reaper. In that exact moment Shepard should shout:
*EDI, scan the frak out of that thing! And take pictures!" 
After that he should call the Turian Councilor and send him the collected data and say:
*Look at my freaking Reaper! Look!*

The scan wouldn't pick up much but with info collected by the Cerberus team they at least would get 3 things. 
- It's big
- It's really old
- It wasn't built by the Geth. 

Would the Council do something? We don't know, but they couldn't say anymore it's a Geth creation. And would have something to think about. 

Through the entire ME1 and ME2 everyone is treating Shepard like the kid that cried wolf - getting evidence should be at this point his first natural reflex.

There are two ways I can take this.

(A) - The Council are simply bluffing your butt when they talk about the Reapers because you've basically gone AWOL and defected to one of their more steadfast and brutal enemies (and who wants to let in on what's actually happening to a very obvious spy?).

( - The Council only disputes that Sovereign was a Reaper; an ancient A.I. hell-bent on destroying everything that happens to use their trap. They don't dispute the properties of the ship, save for they say it's not beyond the capability of the Geth to build. Even if they get concrete evidence, what's to say that it wasn't some Artifact from a long-lost war that the Geth recovered? Wouldn't be the first time. Again, the existence of the Reapers - as an entity whose goal is genocide - is what's disputed, not whether or not the crawfish do.

Reason 3...

ARE THERE SPECTRES IN IT?

Sadly there is no spectres in the game... (Shepard doesn't count and the spectre from Shadow Broker DLC that intentionally takes place after the Suicide Mission does not either).

"There aren't any Spectres in this game, except those two Spectres. They don't count."

Why don't they count, again?

In ME1 the spectres were basically Jedi of Mass Effect universe. Working for the council they were getting things done that anyone else couldn't. You would think the Coucnil would send at least one Spectre to investigate what's going on to one of it's member's colonies. But it seemed the writing staff didn't have an idea what to do with the spectres anymore so they marginalized them as much as they could. Giving us a token spectre *Here, have a spectre, and f*ck off" in the Shadow Broker DLC. After ME1 when spectres were the main part of the storyline it's like kick in the balls. It's like watching a Star Wars movie with no Jedi in it. Yes it can be done, but the Jedi are one of the important aspects of that universe. So are spectres in ME universe. Especially after how much fuss they made in the first game about having a spectre.

How many Spectres does the Council have left? How many were killed in the Geth attack? How many are already involved in matters that the Council considers more important than the disappearance of Colonies outside of Citadel space? How many Spectres are being interrogated or carefully evaluated after one of their best and most trusted turned out to stab them in the back? How many Spectres were there that Shepard just didn't see?

Those questions aren't answered (and I think a few should be), but essentially you're not counting the two Spectres in the game because... uhh... you don't want to.

If you count them, they had one Spectre check out the Colony disappearances (as is normal), and one Spectre who went a bit overboard (again).

Reason 4...

WREX AND WREAV WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? 

In ME2 there is absolutely no consequence in killing Wrex or keeping him alive in ME1.

If only the series was a trilogy. I hear that trilogies have three parts, so that something can happen in the first or second act which has importance in the third. Much like cutting off a Jedi's hand, establishing that a Ranger is the true heir to the throne of Gondor, or other such things.

Reason 5... (Disputable)

MASS RELAYS ARE FRAGILE 

Ok, I'll admit it. I'm not really sure about this one so you can disregard it, but it still felt iffy while playing the game. 

In the Arrival DLC you get to destroy a Mass Relay with an asteroid - basically using the same tactics as the Batarians used in Bring Down The Sky. 

But in ME1 when searching for the Mu Relay you are informed that it was hit by a supernova blast and was lost. One would think that a supernova blast carries a lot more energy than an asteroid and since that Relay survived the supernova.... you see where I'm going with this. 
And what we know from the ME games Relays are placed in the system as an artificial satelite of a star so you can't really justify it by saying that it was far away. Only big stars go supernova and then they are even bigger....

But I'm not really sure about this. I can't be totally wrong here, I just thought a relay would be more durable since one withstood an exploding star.

Yes, it withstood an exploding star from several hundred million miles away.

The star exploded in a nearby system, not the Relay's own system.

That's all folks...

You can call this issues nitpicking if you want, but for me they were critical flaws in the premise of the plot and if a basic premise is flawed the entire logic of the story falls apart. And don't get me wrong I love ME2 I played it 4 times now, the gameplay was awesome but I think the plot is really weak and doesn't hold up to the plot of ME1. I wrote this because I care about ME games. 

The plot is somewhat weak, but not for the reasons outlined here.

[legion999]

Why do Saren, Vela Vasir, Nihlus and Shepard not count? In fact I wouldn't be suprised if Spectres avoid Shepard. Think about it, every Spectre Shepard has encountered has died.

[Nashiktal]

You do grasp just how big and fasts the object that hit the relay was right? Not to mention the cost, and you had to transport the huge object to do it.

This meant time, money, resources (manpower, labor, supplies for labor, and material) and most important of all you need to hope the collectors (or anyone else who doesnt want to see a relay destroyed)

\\

[didymos1120]

Scimal wrote...

Yes, it withstood an exploding star from several hundred million miles away.

The star exploded in a nearby system, not the Relay's own system.

Not even that close.  Planetary systems are separated by multiple light-years.

[Tajtusek]

SCIMAL

Scimal wrote...

Omega isn't just Batarian Territory, it's Smuggler territory. The fleet wouldn't be contending with just the Collectors (which are seen as practically benign, if not excellent trading partners to many), but every rogue ship and every mercenary group that happened through. It wouldn't be worth the resources to maintain the fleet in Omega space, and a handful of ships would get destroyed too easily.

So you're trying to tell me, that every Rougue ship would hurl itself on a Alliance Fleet? And do what exactly? Privateer fleets attacking the Alliance Navy happened before with the Skyllian Blitz and they got blasted to pieces without doing Alliance Forces any real harm. Very unlikely that mercenaries would do a Suicide runs on a full fledged War Ships. Also, yes the Collectors seem bening, true but guess what. Alliance gets the data from Shepard and THEY PUBLISH IT! Those attacks on human Colonies make them seem weak and not able to defend their own people. But suddenly you have situation when the entire Galaxy knows that the Collectors are attacking big settlements in the Terminus Systems. That would make people think. Ok so now they're adbucting entire colonies not just buying random people, when willthey hit my colony? Collector's position in the Terminus Systems drops like a bomb. And people would be glad if Alliance would take care of the potential threat.
Also Alliance has the 2nd biggest Fleet in the Galaxy (not Counting Quarians) right after the Turians. They have at least 5 fleet groups. And you're telling me they wouldn't be able to muster a strike force? And just a reminder those guardian turret systems that was on Horizon are a standard armaments of Alliace frigates not even mentioning the mass drivers. Collector's ship would get torn to pieces. 

For Paragon Shep, the first logical misstep is accepting to work for Cerberus in the first place and not stealing the Normandy within the first 20 minutes.

No, the first logical step for Paragon Shepard is this. He sees the evidence for the Collectors attacks. He then goes to TIM for post mission briefing and says something like this:
"You brought me back, so you think I'm important, you want my help? We are going with this to the Alliance, you don't like it, you can frak off, and judging by the fact you put 4 billion credits in me, you won't. So we play by my rules, or don't play at all"
TIM has no choice then and has to play ball on the Paragon Shepard's terms. Also in the game TIM states that he doesn't have a problem with getting outside help. So what the f*ck Bioware. You had to railroad Shepard this hard?

This ties in with (A) in that if the Alliance doesn't do anything, then Shepard is the only one left to do something. This actually encourages the Suicide Mission, and is an excellent counter-argument.

Yes, it would be a great counter-argument if they gave the Alliance chance to do something or don't do anything at alt all, without that chance - Shepard doesn't even want to find out - which for Paragon Shepard doesn't make any sense - because he is an idealist and would at least try. 

(A) - The Council are simply bluffing your butt when they talk about the Reapers because you've basically gone AWOL and defected to one of their more steadfast and brutal enemies (and who wants to let in on what's actually happening to a very obvious spy?).
( - The Council only disputes that Sovereign was a Reaper; an ancient A.I. hell-bent on destroying everything that happens to use their trap. They don't dispute the properties of the ship, save for they say it's not beyond the capability of the Geth to build. Even if they get concrete evidence, what's to say that it wasn't some Artifact from a long-lost war that the Geth recovered? Wouldn't be the first time. Again, the existence of the Reapers - as an entity whose goal is genocide - is what's disputed, not whether or not the crawfish do.

If we're talking about Paragon Shepard they trust him enough to make him a fake spectre again (well get to that later) but wouldn't take into consideration any evidence provided by him? Really? That would not only prove his loyality to the Council but also made them curious. Don't you think the Council would't send a ship just to check it out? It was there for 37 miliions years, it isn't going anywhere. Citadel Space ships would swarm that thing like ants. Not only to check if this a reaper or not, but also to get new technologies from an ancient 2km long artifact. 
Even if the Council still wouldn't want to consider it a Reaper they would find a ship 37 millions years old that is using mass effect fields a technology that was supoosedly discovered by the PROTHEANS - 50K YEARS AGO. It would made all their theories on origins of that technology go out the window. Something to think about for a civilazation that suddenly knows nothing on where their technology came from. 

Why don't they count, again?

A. Shepard as a spectre is only a optional choice in the game, the plot doesn't need him to be spectre to run it's course. But even when discussing a Paragon Shepard - you get a basically a fake Spectre status. There is no real backing from the Council, you don't get funds from them, you don't get special weapons from them, you don't report to them, you don't get to use their databases. So no you're not a real spectre in the game. You just get the title back to make you feel good. 
B. Tela Vasir is from DLC that is SOLD SEPERATLY and TAKES PLACE AFTER ME2 MAIN PLOT. So she has no real bearing on the ME2 story whatsover. And as such she can't be counted as a Spectre from ME2 she is from a Shadow Broker DLC. So while playing the ME2 main campaign THERE ARE NO SPECTRES IN IT. But wouldn't it be cool if Tela Vasir was in the ME2 plot? She is basically in the same position as Shepard. She works for a shady organization she doesn't like but sees no ther way to keep the Galaxy safe. Wouldn't be she be a great Villain beside the collector general? The new version of Saren but with more moral issues not only fueled by indoctrination. A great anti-villain for the ME2 storyline. Sadly Shadow Broker cut content beceuse that what it should be called is sold seperatly. 

How many Spectres does the Council have left? How many were killed in the Geth attack? How many are already involved in matters that the Council considers more important than the disappearance of Colonies outside of Citadel space? How many Spectres are being interrogated or carefully evaluated after one of their best and most trusted turned out to stab them in the back? How many Spectres were there that Shepard just didn't see? 
Those questions aren't answered (and I think a few should be), but essentially you're not counting the two Spectres in the game because... uhh... you don't want to. 
If you count them, they had one Spectre check out the Colony disappearances (as is normal), and one Spectre who went a bit overboard (again).

Even if the Council wouldn't send any spectres that still doesn't mean there wouldn't be any spectres in Shepard's path. Shadow broker has a Spectre at his disposal. He already TRIED TO SELL SHEPARD TO THE COLLECTORS, TRIED TO KILL HIM USING WILSON AND HAS SURVILANCE BUGS ON THE NORMANDY SR-2! 
Wouldn't you think he would send Tela Vasir to stop Shepard? You know the rule only a spectre can take down a spectre from the first game? That would make a strong spectre presence in the game and gave the game a real antagonist, because the game actually didn't have a real one.  Not having any spectres in the game is just cheap and creates story problems.  And Bioware doesn't even try handwaving the issue. At least some dialog line about what the spectres are doing should appear at some point. 
Plus I don't count Shepard and Tela because I just don't want - I wrote a why I don't count them in my previous point. 

If only the series was a trilogy. I hear that trilogies have three parts, so that something can happen in the first or second act which has importance in the third. Much like cutting off a Jedi's hand, establishing that a Ranger is the true heir to the throne of Gondor, or other such things.

Like I said I hope they will fix it in the third game, did you even read that part? But having no visible consequence in the game for such a major choice is still cheap. It doesn't change Grunt's loyality mission, it doesn't change Mordin's loyaliy mission. Everything you do on Tuchanka is exactly the same just with a different paint job. The same goes with Ash/Kaidon meeting - it's basically the same event with minor changes to the dialog - Ash calls you basically a Jesus. Other than that nothing changes. And in ME3 from what we have seen they share exactly the same role - of being your spectre on board the Nomrnady and they probably play the same role in the story the only difference is probably going to be their loyality mission or what Bioware want's to call right now. The major choices from the previous game don't seem to have any real consequences it is all railroaded as f*ck. BUT I HOPE THEY WILL FIX IT IN THE THIRD GAME. 


Also I can add reason 6 why the plot of ME2 doesn't make sense I will add it to the list.
 Reason 6...
WHAT WAS HARBRINGER'S PLAN EXACTLY.?
I get it, he was trying to build a new Reaper. But from what we can deduct from the ME Incursion comic and what was said in the game itself. The reaper was still an embrio and it would need millions of people more to be finished. And there aren't enough humans in the Terminus Systems. They would have to attack Alliance and Citadel Space colonies. And by doing so they would turn the attention of the galaxy to them. What could one Collector ship do against Turian and Human fleets hunting for it when they'd start abducting humans from Citadel Space? Also, ok somehow they manage to finish their reaper. Now they have to build a fleet at least as big as the one Soverign had to attack the Citadel and bring back the Reapers. How would they do that? It would take years. And I know Reapers are patient but the longer they wait the stronger Human and Turian fleets get. And even if they had the fleet what would they do? Pull the same stunt Soverign did? They can't use the conduit anymore. The keepers aren't responding to them. The Citadel Fleet is stronger than ever. Why not just skip the Collector plan and use the Alpha Relay (from the Arrival DLC) in the first place, when Human and Turian fleets are weakend? And this what ME2 plot should be about really. Not fighting the Collectors through a pointless suicide mission. But trying to stop the Reapers from returning through Alpha Relay. 

[Sgt Stryker]

Regarding your Reason #6:
Ever since I played Arrival, I have come to the conclusion that Harbinger never intended for the Human Reaper to be Sovereign's replacement. Instead, I see it as little more than a prototype/proof-of-concept model, designed to make certain the humans are compatible with Reaper reproduction. The reason they have the Collectors do the experimentation in ME2 is just so the Reapers don't have to do that step once they reach Earth.

[Padzi]

Sgt Stryker ...
Regarding your Reason #6:
Ever since I played Arrival, I have come to the conclusion that Harbinger never intended for the Human Reaper to be Sovereign's replacement. Instead, I see it as little more than a prototype/proof-of-concept model, designed to make certain the humans are compatible with Reaper reproduction. The reason they have the Collectors do the experimentation in ME2 is just so the Reapers don't have to do that step once they reach Earth.

I would agree with you if for not two issues
that come up during the game.
The collectors determined that the humans are
compatible a lot earlier, that is why they bought so many slaves from different
races to experiment on.
Also at the end of the game Harbringer says something
like this:

- You failed us, we will find another way.

So that
means it wasn't a side plan but a full plan B.

Arrival happened only
after the Collector base was destroyed and his plan B failed.

Modifié par Padzi, 20 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[Sgt Stryker]

So are you saying that the Reapers only "woke up" and started FTL-ing to the Milky Way after the Collector Base was destroyed? If that's the case, then how did Harbinger control the Collectors if it was hibernating? No, I'm convinced that the Reapers have been on the move ever since the end of ME1.

Also, 2 years is a much more believable time frame for the Reaper's trek to our galaxy than the few months between the SM and the events of Arrival.

[cihimi]

This Is Nonsense.

[Scimal]

[quote]Tajtusek wrote...

SCIMAL

So you're trying to tell me, that every Rougue ship would hurl itself on a Alliance Fleet? And do what exactly? Privateer fleets attacking the Alliance Navy happened before with the Skyllian Blitz and they got blasted to pieces without doing Alliance Forces any real harm. Very unlikely that mercenaries would do a Suicide runs on a full fledged War Ships. [/quote]

No, I doubt that anything besides an alliance between the mercenary groups might pose a threat to an Alliance fleet. However, a single, very strong mercenary group with the backing of the Batarians and other anti-human governments would be a significant threat in lawless space.

[quote]Also, yes the Collectors seem bening, true but guess what. Alliance gets the data from Shepard and THEY PUBLISH IT! Those attacks on human Colonies make them seem weak and not able to defend their own people. But suddenly you have situation when the entire Galaxy knows that the Collectors are attacking big settlements in the Terminus Systems. That would make people think. Ok so now they're adbucting entire colonies not just buying random people, when willthey hit my colony? Collector's position in the Terminus Systems drops like a bomb. And people would be glad if Alliance would take care of the potential threat.[/quote]

Ummm... The entire Galaxy did know that the attacks were happening. Maybe not specifically by the Collectors, but it wasn't a secret that entire colonies were being abducted.

Even if it was revealed that it was the Collectors were the ones behind it, why would the Terminus systems care? It's not like Aria had any great interest in protecting humans, and since it was only humans she wasn't next on the list. Same goes for any Batarian... who might trade for the technology to do what the Collectors did to get a leg up on the Alliance.

[quote]Also Alliance has the 2nd biggest Fleet in the Galaxy (not Counting Quarians) right after the Turians. They have at least 5 fleet groups. And you're telling me they wouldn't be able to muster a strike force? And just a reminder those guardian turret systems that was on Horizon are a standard armaments of Alliace frigates not even mentioning the mass drivers. Collector's ship would get torn to pieces.[/quote]

The Guardian turret might have been able to hit the Collector ship, but there wasn't any indication that it was seriously damaged by it. You find it later as a trap, perfectly functional, if you remember. The Guardian Turrets might have been an annoyance, and might eventually take it down, but it would take a capital ship to ensure its destruction.

Also, it's not a strike force - it's an occupation force. You're waiting for the Collector ship to appear - and it's unknown how long that would take. You can't go through the Omega 4 Relay to check things out, you're just sitting there, hoping that it pops through while you're paying attention. That takes quite a bit more planning and more resources than a capital ship or two making a run towards a known target's location and smashing it to bits.

[quote]No, the first logical step for Paragon Shepard is this. He sees the evidence for the Collectors attacks. He then goes to TIM for post mission briefing and says something like this:
"You brought me back, so you think I'm important, you want my help? We are going with this to the Alliance, you don't like it, you can frak off, and judging by the fact you put 4 billion credits in me, you won't. So we play by my rules, or don't play at all"[/quote]

Thanks for restating what I said.

[quote]Yes, it would be a great counter-argument if they gave the Alliance chance to do something or don't do anything at alt all, without that chance - Shepard doesn't even want to find out - which for Paragon Shepard doesn't make any sense - because he is an idealist and would at least try.[/quote]

Shepards asks quite a few people about additional help in getting the Collectors. Mostly on the Citadel.

[quote]If we're talking about Paragon Shepard they trust him enough to make him a fake spectre again (well get to that later) but wouldn't take into consideration any evidence provided by him? Really?[/quote]

Paragon... Renegade... doesn't really matter after several years of being dead and then showing up under the banner of a bitter, hateful enemy.

I would trust Shepard as far as I could throw him, and that's not far in the first place. Seriously, would you?

"Hi! I'm back. Remember all that good stuff I did a couple of years ago? Yeah, now I'm with an organization who's hell-bent on advancing humanity through nightmarish acts of treason and mass murder. However, that doesn't mean I'm bad, specifically speaking of course. Yes, I was completely rebuilt by them and have their technology coursing through my body, but I assure you - I'm totally trustworthy.

Now, about that Sentient A.I. that I told you existed but lacked hard evidence for that wants to destroy us all..."

[quote]Don't you think the Council would't send a ship just to check it out? It was there for 37 miliions years, it isn't going anywhere.[/quote]

If you finished the mission, it fell into the planet's gravity well and was destroyed.

[quote]Even if the Council still wouldn't want to consider it a Reaper they would find a ship 37 millions years old that is using mass effect fields a technology that was supoosedly discovered by the PROTHEANS - 50K YEARS AGO. It would made all their theories on origins of that technology go out the window. Something to think about for a civilazation that suddenly knows nothing on where their technology came from. [/quote]

Mass Effect Fields weren't discovered by the Protheans... it was supposedly the Protheans who built the Relays and the Citadel (the Master Relay).

Also, if you finished the mission, the Reaper corpse falls into the planet's gravity well and is destroyed.

There's nothing to investigate.


[quote]A. Shepard as a spectre is only a optional choice in the game, the plot doesn't need him to be spectre to run it's course. [/quote]

Fine. However, you've been buliding this from the viewpoint of Paragon Shep... and would Paragon Shep really turn down Specter status, knowing the potential benefits? No.

Shepard is a Spectre here.

[quote]B. Tela Vasir is from DLC that is SOLD SEPERATLY and TAKES PLACE AFTER ME2 MAIN PLOT. So she has no real bearing on the ME2 story whatsover. And as such she can't be counted as a Spectre from ME2 she is from a Shadow Broker DLC. So while playing the ME2 main campaign THERE ARE NO SPECTRES IN IT. But wouldn't it be cool if Tela Vasir was in the ME2 plot? She is basically in the same position as Shepard. She works for a shady organization she doesn't like but sees no ther way to keep the Galaxy safe. Wouldn't be she be a great Villain beside the collector general? The new version of Saren but with more moral issues not only fueled by indoctrination. A great anti-villain for the ME2 storyline. Sadly Shadow Broker cut content beceuse that what it should be called is sold seperatly. [/quote]

Shadowbroker can be played before or after the Suicide Mission.


[quote]
Even if the Council wouldn't send any spectres that still doesn't mean there wouldn't be any spectres in Shepard's path. Shadow broker has a Spectre at his disposal. He already TRIED TO SELL SHEPARD TO THE COLLECTORS, TRIED TO KILL HIM USING WILSON AND HAS SURVILANCE BUGS ON THE NORMANDY SR-2! 
Wouldn't you think he would send Tela Vasir to stop Shepard? You know the rule only a spectre can take down a spectre from the first game? That would make a strong spectre presence in the game and gave the game a real antagonist, because the game actually didn't have a real one.  Not having any spectres in the game is just cheap and creates story problems.  And Bioware doesn't even try handwaving the issue. At least some dialog line about what the spectres are doing should appear at some point. 
Plus I don't count Shepard and Tela because I just don't want - I wrote a why I don't count them in my previous point. [/quote]

Why would the Shadow Broker want to stop Shepard? Shepard is one of the most valuable keys to information that exists on saving the Shadow Broker's butt. He tried to trade Shepard when Shepard was dead - but still useful as a bargaining chip.

Your reasons why they don't count are both on specious, unstable reasoning. I'd suggest you find better reasons.

Also, why should Spectres be necessary to the plot? Yes, they may be the equivalent of Special Forces (not so much Jedi, as the Jedi are a publicly known organization who make themselves obvious to spot)... but so what? The game has pacing issues, not really plot issues.

[quote]BUT I HOPE THEY WILL FIX IT IN THE THIRD GAME. [/quote]

Good. Then stop whining about it. The game's practically done at this point, and nothing short of a spectacular failure at a major event like PAX will cause changes to the storyline and the NPCs.


[quote]Also I can add reason 6 why the plot of ME2 doesn't make sense I will add it to the list.
 Reason 6...
WHAT WAS HARBRINGER'S PLAN EXACTLY.?
I get it, he was trying to build a new Reaper. But from what we can deduct from the ME Incursion comic and what was said in the game itself. The reaper was still an embrio and it would need millions of people more to be finished. And there aren't enough humans in the Terminus Systems. They would have to attack Alliance and Citadel Space colonies. And by doing so they would turn the attention of the galaxy to them. What could one Collector ship do against Turian and Human fleets hunting for it when they'd start abducting humans from Citadel Space?[/quote]

One Collector ship couldn't do much. One Collector ship backed by the entire Reaper fleet is another issue.

Why do you think Harbinger's plan was to wait quietly beyond the rim as the Collectors did their work? We know from the DLC that the Reapers never stopped heading towards the Alpha relay once their plan failed.

The Reapers have existed for millions (billions?) of years. I'm pretty sure they can do two things at once.

[quote]Now they have to build a fleet at least as big as the one Soverign had to attack the Citadel and bring back the Reapers. How would they do that? It would take years. And I know Reapers are patient but the longer they wait the stronger Human and Turian fleets get.[/quote]

If it hadn't been for Shepard defeating the avatar form of Sovereign, the entire Citadel would've been taken. Sovereign wasn't taking damage from the fleet until he went stiff.

Now, let's pretend there were 20 Sovereigns... Yeah, worth the wait. Unless the Council can figure out a way to reliably defeat Reapers (and there's no evidence that Sovereign's own weapon systems work on Reapers in the first place), it doesn't really matter how much time it takes to build a fleet.

[quote]And even if they had the fleet what would they do? Pull the same stunt Soverign did? They can't use the conduit anymore. The keepers aren't responding to them. The Citadel Fleet is stronger than ever. Why not just skip the Collector plan and use the Alpha Relay (from the Arrival DLC) in the first place, when Human and Turian fleets are weakend? And this what ME2 plot should be about really. Not fighting the Collectors through a pointless suicide mission. But trying to stop the Reapers from returning through Alpha Relay. [/quote]

Bravo. You arrived at the same conclusion I did, only a paragraph later and still under the assumption that the Reapers can only do one thing at a time.

What would they do? What would you do? I'd destroy the strongest species first, then go down the list, rebuild the Citadel, and go back to doing what I've been doing for the past 50,000,000 years. The Keepers are a convenience, not a necessity. The Citadel didn't always exist. I'm pretty sure the Reapers were efficient performers of Genocide before they learned to guide new species via the Mass Relays, and I'm also pretty sure that they could Google what they did if they happened to forget.
.

[008Zulu]

legion999 wrote...

Why do Saren, Vela Vasir, Nihlus and Shepard not count? In fact I wouldn't be suprised if Spectres avoid Shepard. Think about it, every Spectre Shepard has encountered has died.

Saren stopped being a Spectre the moment he joined with the Reapers (the Council officially stripped him very early on). Nihlus was killed by Saren. Vasir was an agent for the Shadowbroker, she was the only Spectre to be directly killed by Shepard.

The only Spectres who would avoid Shepard are the ones who aren't loyal/faithful to the Council anymore.

[KevShep]

008Zulu wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Why do Saren, Vela Vasir, Nihlus and Shepard not count? In fact I wouldn't be suprised if Spectres avoid Shepard. Think about it, every Spectre Shepard has encountered has died.

Saren stopped being a Spectre the moment he joined with the Reapers (the Council officially stripped him very early on). Nihlus was killed by Saren. Vasir was an agent for the Shadowbroker, she was the only Spectre to be directly killed by Shepard.

The only Spectres who would avoid Shepard are the ones who aren't loyal/faithful to the Council anymore.

I can definitely see why anyone in there right mind would avoid Shepard. Things tend to explode around Shep!

[Raven4030]

008Zulu wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Why do Saren, Vela Vasir, Nihlus and Shepard not count? In fact I wouldn't be suprised if Spectres avoid Shepard. Think about it, every Spectre Shepard has encountered has died.

Saren stopped being a Spectre the moment he joined with the Reapers (the Council officially stripped him very early on). Nihlus was killed by Saren. Vasir was an agent for the Shadowbroker, she was the only Spectre to be directly killed by Shepard.

The only Spectres who would avoid Shepard are the ones who aren't loyal/faithful to the Council anymore.

I'd still avoid him. With Shepard's luck if I see him on a planet where I'm planning to assassinate somebody with information that could bring down the council, then it is very likely that my target is somebody he is screwing at the time.

[Padzi]

Sgt Stryker...

So are you saying that the Reapers only "woke up" and started FTL-ing to the Milky Way after the Collector Base was destroyed? If that's the case, then how did Harbinger control the Collectors if it was hibernating? No, I'm convinced that the Reapers have been on the move ever since the end of ME1.

Also, 2 years is a much more believable time frame for the Reaper's trek to our galaxy than the few months between the SM and the events of Arrival.

There is no evidence that all the Reapers
woke up after Sovereign's death. The only Reaper in the game we encounter is
Harbringer. And how do you know how far the Reapers decided to go outside the
galaxy 50k years ago? You don't. A couple of months is for that reason as likely
as two years of FTL'ing. Also if the Reapers awoke after Sovereign's death and
were FTLing that makes it even worse. Because that renders the plot of ME2
totally pointless. Defeating the Collectors has no meaning and doesn't really
tie-in to the overarching story line when the Reapers were on their way anyway.
Why play cat and mouse for two years with the Collector ship in the Terminus
systems and build a Reaper which isn't going to be ready before their Arrival.
Kill Shepard and wait those two years. When you arrive and take Earth, now you
can use the Collector ship and take from Earth as many Humans as you want.
Producing new Reapers faster and more effectively.

Also I again will
refer to Harbringer's words:

- You failed us. We will find another way.


Not

- You failed us. But we are already coming.

And then
we get a cut scene were the entire Reaper fleat lights (before being dark) and
starts flying to the galaxy, If anything that suggests that they awoke after
their plan B failed. Whatever it was.

[Sgt Stryker]

Padzi wrote...
Why play cat and mouse for two years with the Collector ship in the Terminus
systems and build a Reaper which isn't going to be ready before their Arrival.
Kill Shepard and wait those two years. When you arrive and take Earth, now you
can use the Collector ship and take from Earth as many Humans as you want.
Producing new Reapers faster and more effectively.

Also I again will
refer to Harbringer's words:

- You failed us. We will find another way.


Not

- You failed us. But we are already coming.

If Harbinger was seriously expecting to retake the Citadel using the Collector-built Reaper, using the same gambit that Sovereign used, then that makes it the worst strategist ever. I'm sorry, but I just have trouble accepting that. Harbinger's quote is actually somewhat ambiguous and can be interpreted in multiple ways. The most popular interpretation is "You have failed. We will find another way into the galaxy." However, my interpretation is more along the lines of "You have failed. We will find another way to make humanity join our ranks/salvation through destruction/etc. etc."

Now, I don't claim to know all the gory details of Reaper reproduction (nobody does, but many here still claim they do), but if my ultimate goal was to turn humans into Reapers, and I knew that it would take time for me to travel to my target, I would have my subordinates go ahead and get started on the preliminaries of that project. Who knows, maybe there were few kinks in the design that needed to be eliminated, or maybe they did not yet know the optimum design. That's what I believe the Collector's Reaper was for. If it could be completed by the time the invasion began, that is well and good, it gets to take part in the war. If not, too bad.

Padzi wrote...
And then
we get a cut scene were the entire Reaper fleat lights (before being dark) and
starts flying to the galaxy, If anything that suggests that they awoke after
their plan B failed. Whatever it was.

Are you talking about this cutscene? If you look carefully, you'll notice that the Reaper lights were always on. The reason the Reapers have that "emerge from darkness" effect is because they're moving closer to the galaxy and getting illuminated by it. Besides, I don't think we can take this cutscene at face value, since the Reapers are not shown as flying in FTL (no FTL effects). I think this cutscene is meant to be symbolic, more than anything else. (Notice how it suggests that Shepard is "staring down" the approaching fleet, even though they are still thousands of lightyears away)

[KevShep]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I agree you 100%.....Iam sick of people taking the story at face value. For example- If the story from ME1 is taken at face value then Cerberus would not be a major player in ME2, nor would the omega 4 relay. There is always something big hidden in the shadows of the story that your NOT going to see untill your almost at the end of ME3! The reapers motives are still UNKOWN people!!!!!!!!!!! Even Mass Effect wiki says this. EDI is only "guessing" when your at the collector base....she even tells you that she does not have the intel to know for sure.

As for the reason for the human reaper? Well I really doubt that it was going to be used to retake the citedal. All you need to do is indocrtinate someone like Shepard to just walk up to the controls and open the relay.....You dont need a reaper for that. Sovereign was there to regain control of the station as a whole. Not just the relay controls but also the galaxy intel. But in this case all you really need to do is open the relay and then worry about that intel, so like I said you dont need a reaper for that much less a human reaper.

[008Zulu]

Raven4030 wrote...

I'd still avoid him. With Shepard's luck if I see him on a planet where I'm planning to assassinate somebody with information that could bring down the council, then it is very likely that my target is somebody he is screwing at the time.

If your after the same guy it'd be easier if you went up to Shepard and joined up with him. While people do tend to die around him, those on his squad have surprising resiliance to extreme physical injurues.

[DPSSOC]

Tajtusek wrote...
Reason 3...

ARE THERE SPECTRES IN IT?

Sadly there is no spectres in the game... (Shepard doesn't count and the spectre from Shadow Broker DLC that intentionally takes place after the Suicide Mission does not either).

In ME1 the spectres were basically Jedi of Mass Effect universe. Working for the council they were getting things done that anyone else couldn't. You would think the Coucnil would send at least one Spectre to investigate what's going on to one of it's member's colonies. 

Here is the major flaw in this argument.  The colonies being targetted are not Alliance colonies.  They may be human colonies but they have no ties to the Alliance government and therefore no ties to the Council.  Furthermore this is strictly a human problem so the Council (and this is covered in a news report I believe) won't get involved because as a Council race humanity has to be able to take care of it's own issues as well as those of the greater galactic community.  This may be hypocritical considering the Krogan Rebellions but the idea of the Council being a corrupt, inneffectual, and outright tyrannical organization is already a thoroughly beaten dead horse so I won't go into it. 

Modifié par DPSSOC, 22 août 2011 - 03:22 .