57 réponses à ce sujet

[Tajtusek]

[quote]Scimal wrote...[/quote]


[quote]Ummm... The entire Galaxy did know that the attacks were happening. Maybe not specifically by the Collectors, but it wasn't a secret that entire colonies were being abducted.Even if it was revealed that it was the Collectors were the ones behind it, why would the Terminus systems care? It's not like Aria had any great interest in protecting humans, and since it was only humans she wasn't next on the list. Same goes for any Batarian... who might trade for the technology to do what the Collectors did to get a leg up on the Alliance.[/quote]
I have to ask this, did you even play the game?  But we will touch that issue in a moment - now let's visit your first point. 
Yes, the Entire galaxy knew that the attacks were occuring. BUT. They were blamed on slavers, pirates and every other reason people could think of. They didn't know who was attacking. You can't build an opposition to something when you don't know what to oppose. Colonies being abducted alone isn't enough to make the Terminus Systems think. When you have evidence that Terminus is being attacked by Collectors a threat that you don't know what is it's agenda. You would be starting to prepare for an occasion that they're going to change targets from people to other races, They might not, but... And in fact Shepard had evidence that they changed Targets, another reason for other colonies not to like the Collectors. What were those evidence, oh let me explain. 
Why would Aria care, oh I don't know maybe because SHE WAS ATTACKED!? The plague that was spread through Omega was of Collector origin. A plague that was intended to kill all non-humans on Omega eventually. A plague that given enough time could kill Aria, or at least destroy her empire. I think that such actions violate herr "Don't F*ck with Aria rule". But there is even more. If you read the Incursion mini comic you would know Aria doesn't like the Collectors. SHE PERSONALLY FOUGHT AGAINST THEM to rid the station of them. So you already have the anger part in possition, now you present Aria with the evidence from Freedom's Progess and Mordin's reasearch. He is the one who made the cure for it. He would be trust worthy. And now you got Aria on board for the mission to stop the Collectors. 




[quote]The Guardian turret might have been able to hit the Collector ship, but there wasn't any indication that it was seriously damaged by it.[/quote]
Wait your saying that a turret that took their kinetic shield down wasn't damaging them? Then why would they leave? Why not just take off, change the location of their ship and destroy the Turret?  Why not attack the Turret directly with their troops and stop focusing on Shepard for at least a minute. 
Either they had no time because they were getting hit and those hits were a danger to them or they were just frightend that a big bad gun is firing at them and stopped thinking. It's not like they didn't have more Preatorians (those flying husks) 
Why didn't they send more of them to attack the Turret if the hits weren't a significant danger. 

 [quote]You find it later as a trap, perfectly functional, if you remember.[/quote]
Yes, because Collector crrew isn't capable of making repairs. Also Remember that they starting running right after their kinectic barriers fell. I wonder why's that? Oh yeah to avoid significant damage. 

 [quote]The Guardian Turrets might have been an annoyance, and might eventually take it down, but it would take a capital ship to ensure its destruction.[/quote]
And for such purposes the Alliance mounts mass drivers (you know a magnet gun that shoots metallic slugs at high velocities) On their frigates and cruisers. Also torpedo launchers. Collector ship in case of an Alliance attack wouldn't have to endure only Guardian Turrets. 

[quote]Also, it's not a strike force - it's an occupation force. You're waiting for the Collector ship to appear - and it's unknown how long that would take. You can't go through the Omega 4 Relay to check things out, you're just sitting there, hoping that it pops through while you're paying attention. That takes quite a bit more planning and more resources than a capital ship or two making a run towards a known target's location and smashing it to bits.[/quote]
Fine, but after presenting the evidence of Collector attack on Aria's Empire that wouldn't be an issue. Aria would probably welcome the Alliance fleet with an open arms to take care of the Collector problem for her. But let's say she would not. You think she wouldn't do anything about it? Like, I don't know, mustering her own mercenary fleet to take care of the problem? It surely wouldn't be as effective but I would at least make Collector's life harder and Shepard's easier. The plot of the game just falls apart when you apply logic to it. There is absolutely no reason for Shepard not sharing this information with Aria. Even if Aria wouldn't be able to muster a fleet she would at least provide Shepard with the help of her intelligence network - that would make tracking the Collectors a lot easier. 




[quote]Shepards asks quite a few people about additional help in getting the Collectors. Mostly on the Citadel.[/quote]
And never even tries to present any evidence conclusive or not. Gee, I wonder why nobody want's to help him. 


[quote]Paragon... Renegade... doesn't really matter after several years of being dead and then showing up under the banner of a bitter, hateful enemy.
I would trust Shepard as far as I could throw him, and that's not far in the first place. Seriously, would you?
"Hi! I'm back. Remember all that good stuff I did a couple of years ago? Yeah, now I'm with an organization who's hell-bent on advancing humanity through nightmarish acts of treason and mass murder. However, that doesn't mean I'm bad, 
specifically speaking of course. Yes, I was completely rebuilt by them and have their technology coursing through my body, but I assure you - I'm totally trustworthy. 
Now, about that Sentient A.I. that I told you existed but lacked hard evidence for that wants to destroy us all..."[/quote]
Yeah and the Council states that they don't know why is he doing this. Well find out then. You owe it to him. He saved 13.7 millions lives and the lives of the Council. The least you can give him is the benefit of the doubt. Send a spectre with him, a real one, a one that you know is loyal to the Council. He wil not only find out if what Shepard is saying about the Collectors is true but also judge his actions if he really defected or not. That Spectre could help Shepard in his mission, if the theat was real  and in the long run, even help him to convince the Council about the Reapers. What the Council had to loose. One Spectre - and Spectres are suppose to risk their lives for Citadel Space - and the potential gain of stopping a threat that is threatening colonies of one of it's members is just huge. When one of the member species look weak, the entire council does.They should be interested in fixing the issue.  Making him a fake spectre that isn't even reporting to them doesn't help them to find out anything. This is just bad writing. But it could have been handled better and you would get a cool Spectre character in your squad. The Council had the source of information before them and they just let him go, without any curiousity what's really going on. 


[quote]If you finished the mission, it fell into the planet's gravity well and was destroyed.[/quote]
Yeah and why is that? Because Shepard rushed without assesing the situation. He knew there is probably trouble inside waiting for him. The Cerberus team inside there, went dark. The Reaper was there for 37 millions years it wasn't going anywhere. Scan it. 
And bring backup from the Citadel. When a ship with some reaserches and a team of commandos arrives from the Citadel - then you go in. Shepard is either stupid and the plot makes no sense. Citadel wouldn't let go a possibility to examine an ancient alien artifact. When exactly the same type of Ship attacked the Citadel twou years earlier. 





[quote]Shepard is a Spectre here. [/quote]
Congratulation for absolutely ignoring the argument why Shepard is Spectre only-in name here. 



[quote]Shadowbroker can be played before or after the Suicide Mission. [/quote]
You are completely missing the point here. The Shadow Broker DLC was intended as a bridge between ME2 and ME3 and it was marketed as such. That is why there is an ending it where it takes place after the Suicide Mission. It was intended to be played after the Collectors were destroyed. If ME2 was a tv series this would take place only after the main story arc for the season. But more importantly it was realeased almost 9 months after ME2. In ME2 there is no Tela 
Vasir has no meaning to the ME2 plot. And when you buy a game from a store you aren't obliged to buy any DLC's. So no Tela Vasir doesn't count as a Spectre in ME2 main story line. Playing before the suicide mission doesn't give you a Liara that would help you track the Collectors. If it was intended as the part of ME2 main story line. Wouldn't you think the Shadow Broker inteligence network would come in handy in fighting the Collectors. Especially that Shadow Broker assistant states that Shadow Broker sent probes through Omega-4 relay, and that they were recovered. We don't know in what state there were in but they made it back. If Shadow Broker had the means to do it, wouldn't Liara do it again to help gather at least minimum intel? She does not because the Collectors are already destroyed. 



[quote]Why would the Shadow Broker want to stop Shepard? Shepard is one of the most valuable keys to information that exists on saving the Shadow Broker's butt. He tried to trade Shepard when Shepard was dead - but still useful as a 
bargaining chip.[/quote]
Hmmm...because he did try to kill him? 
Remember he ordered Wilson to kill or capture Shepard (we don't really know) Only after the Lazarus Project worked. Shepard was already alive and was not far away from a full recovery. And then the mech attack on the Cerberus Station happened. 
Shadow Broker - TRIED TO KILL HIM (even if Shepard would be only captured he would be given to the Collectors like Shadow Broker tried before - which also means death). 
And from the Shadow Broker DLC we pretty much learn that SB didn't believe that Reapers could be stopped that is why he looked for other ways of survival like making deals with the Collectors. And that is why he TRIED TO KILL SHEPARD at the begining of the game. If he believed Shepard is up to the challenge he wouldn't attack the station. Simple logic. So it is also logical that he would send Vasir after him if she was part of the ME2. 

[quote]Your reasons why they don't count are both on specious, unstable reasoning. I'd suggest you find better reasons.[/quote]
Whatever you say champ. 
[quote]Also, why should Spectres be necessary to the plot? Yes, they may be the equivalent of Special Forces (not so much Jedi, as the Jedi are a publicly known organization who make themselves obvious to spot)... but so what? The game has pacing issues, not really plot issues.[/quote]
After establishing their immense importance in the first game it's like shooting yourself in the foot, completely ignoring that part of the ME1 plot and marginalizing their role in ME2 to the point there could be no Spectres whatsoever. 


[quote]Good. Then stop whining about it. The game's practically done at this point, and nothing short of a spectacular failure at a major event like PAX will cause changes to the storyline and the NPCs.[/quote]
Bad writing is still bad writing. Imagine Empire strikes back where the characters do basically the same stuff like in New Hope and no of their essential choices has real impact on the state of the galaxy. Then it would be ME2. The reason that there will be ME3 is not an excuse not to forward the plot or develop how your choices branch off into new situations. They didn't because it's cheaper that way and it will be easier to incorparate your choices from ME1 into ME3. But this is still bad writing. 


[quote]One Collector ship couldn't do much. One Collector ship backed by the entire Reaper fleet is another issue.
Why do you think Harbinger's plan was to wait quietly beyond the rim as the Collectors did their work? We know from the DLC that the Reapers never stopped heading towards the Alpha relay once their plan failed.[/quote]
Which plan? Again Arrival was marketed as a bridge between ME2 and ME3 that intentionally takes plae after ME2. There is no indication when the Reapers started their journey back to the galaxy. After ME1 or ME2. The possibility to play it after Horizon is just so the players won't have to go a through a whole game again to play it. But it was intended as final chapter of ME2. There is a reason why when you finish the Arrival DLC Normandy is stationed in our Solar System. 





[quote]If it hadn't been for Shepard defeating the avatar form of Sovereign, the entire Citadel would've been taken. Sovereign wasn't taking damage from the fleet until he went stiff.[/quote]
True but now Turian fleets have Thanix cannons. Basically back-enginered weapns that Sovereign used. Garrus got us Thanix cannon because the Turians already had working models. And from what the Codex said they already have smaller versions mounted on Frigates and Fighters. And remember one shot from the Normandy's Thanix cannon almost tore the Collector ship apart. Now imagine a bunch of those cannons on Turian frigates and cruseirs. There is no way attacking the Citadel would be as easy as it was during ME1. 
[quote]Now, let's pretend there were 20 Sovereigns... [/quote]
Collectors build that thing for two years now and according to EDI already used  somewhere between 50 thousand to 100 thousand humans. And it wasn't even half ready. They didn't even start buidling the 2km long casing for him. At this rate it would take decades to build even one - because as EDI said they will need millions of people for one Reaper. And in two years they managed to collect max 100 thousand (If EDI calculations are correct). Plus you need a lot of humans to like I said to build only one Reaper. And 20? You would have to beyond Terminus systems and attack high profile Alliance colonies, which would get you destroyed by now rebuilt Alliance Navy and Turian Patrol ships with Thanix cannons. 
The reapers should've skip the Collector plan altogether it isn't efficient and it wouldn't even work.  

[quote](and there's no evidence that Sovereign's own weapon systems work on Reapers in the first place),[/quote] 
And there isn't any evidence it wouldn't. Remember that Sovereing was quite weak if you think about it. He was destroyed by one well placed torpedo. His power relied on the strengh of his Kinetic Barries. Thanix cannons would have a lot better chance of taking them down (since we already saw how powerful they are) than the weaponry used against Sovereing. Would they? We don't know. But surely Citadel Fleet would have a better fighting chance. 


[quote]it doesn't really matter how much time it takes to build a fleet.[/quote]
And from where would they take that fleet exactly? Geth? After the Legion loyality mission they were eliminated. Sovereign tried this twice. Once with Rachni and then with the Geth. But Rachni and Geth are gone. (Worse Rachni are their new enemies if Shepard is Paragon) Collectors just don't have the man power to sustain a fleet - hence one ship not a dozen ships. 
Even worse the longer they wait the larger Rachni fleet gets. So they would have to fight not only Citadel Fleet but also now fully rebuilt Rachni - that want one thing - revenge. 



[quote]Bravo. You arrived at the same conclusion I did, only a paragraph later and still under the assumption that the Reapers can only do one thing at a time.[/quote]
Then the entire game should be about stopping the Reapers from reaching the Galaxy not a pointless subplot about the Collectors which doesn't in any meaningfull way impact Reapers main plans. Also like I said there is no clear indication that the Reapers were coming before the Collectors were destroyed. As I think Padzi mentioned in this thread. Harbringer said - You failed us, we will find another way. We don't exactly know what it means but it suggests that once the Collectors failed they decided on a full scale assault. Again Arrival DLC was realesed a year after the main game and is a bridge DLC. The narrative didn't establish if the Reapers were coming ealier or not, so you can't say like it's a fact. And lack of established crucial plot points is just bad writing. Why couldn't Shepard say anything about them in the final scene -  they were already coming, we destroyed their lackeys and now it's their turn. Or something like that. 

[PHub88]

^You take Mass Effect a WEE bit too seriously. just sayin

[wolfennights]

No mention of the Lazarus Project? Or Miranda shooting Wilson? Or Wilson hacking the mechs? Or Miranda trying to ask Shepard questions but being interrupted with Jacob's "WELL, I'M BORED" and thus taking out any insight we could have had on Shep?

Cus those were some pretty big things to me.

[PHub88]

wolfennights wrote...

No mention of the Lazarus Project? Or Miranda shooting Wilson? Or Wilson hacking the mechs? Or Miranda trying to ask Shepard questions but being interrupted with Jacob's "WELL, I'M BORED" and thus taking out any insight we could have had on Shep?

Cus those were some pretty big things to me.

Has it been like 15 months since you played? Almost all of that is explained no need to go into insane depth about it. During that short intro while going through dialogue and listening to audio files it becomes clear Wilson is starting to become annoyed with not being appreciated. He happens to be where he doesnt have clearance, happens to know most of the mechs are in the wing Miranda is in, mentions that theres no way she survived more than once, acts totally shocked Shepard is alive and almost starts to think out loud. Its obvious as heck and Miranda isnt retarded so she shot him. 

Lazarus project, seriously. Shepard died in SPACE and they managed to recover his body and bring him back to life. Im glad they didnt try getting into specifics..it would have been a bunch of big words and ridiculous concepts...the thought of bringing someone back to life is ridiculous...let alone dying the way Shepard did. As of questions about it. I can understand why they didnt bother throwing a ton of that in there. If that happened to you, you could likely chat about it all day long...might as well just avoid it for the sake of throwing the Collectors right in your face and getting down to business. Althogh slightly more information later on would have beeen nice.

[BentOrgy]

PHub88 wrote...

^You take Mass Effect a WEE bit too seriously. just sayin

Don't belittle people who put stock into what they care about. I for one am fascinated that he/she/it makes such a valid, constructive, and well penned argument. Its posts like these that evolve a company, and as such, their future title's quality. If we didn't critique and/or criticise, we'd never have games, or stories like we do now.

But maybe I'm a tad biased here, considering I found ME2's plot to be something less than lacklustre as well, for pretty much the very reasons stated above.

[DPSSOC]

wolfennights wrote...

No mention of the Lazarus Project? Or Miranda shooting Wilson? Or Wilson hacking the mechs? Or Miranda trying to ask Shepard questions but being interrupted with Jacob's "WELL, I'M BORED" and thus taking out any insight we could have had on Shep?

Cus those were some pretty big things to me.

What in particular about the Lazarus Project bothered you?  That they didn't explain what the hell they did?  Which would have just been a compilation of techno/medical babble that the fanbase would just tear apart anyway and complain about that.  Or the speed with which Shepard seems to deal with the revelation that he/she was brought back from the dead?  Or something I missed?

Same goes for Miranda shooting Wilson; what in particular is your issue?

Wilson hacking the mechs we get a bit more insight into durring LotSB when we discover he was being paid by the Shadow Broker.  My guess is the plan was to kill everyone on the station (except still unconcious Shepard) and sell Shepard to the Shadow Broker who would sell him to the Collectors.  It's made clear in his first log entry we find that he's a greedy bastard who wants more money (and well he should; spitting in the face of god as he is) which provides us with motivation.  How a medical doctor hacked the mechs I honestly don't know.

As for Jacob's "I'm bored." I just take it as him being the more human of the pair and trying to subtley tell Miranda to stfu because they've already thrown a lot at Shepard to process.  Just my interpretation of events take it for what it's worth.

[BentOrgy]

DPSSOC wrote...

wolfennights wrote...

No mention of the Lazarus Project? Or Miranda shooting Wilson? Or Wilson hacking the mechs? Or Miranda trying to ask Shepard questions but being interrupted with Jacob's "WELL, I'M BORED" and thus taking out any insight we could have had on Shep?

Cus those were some pretty big things to me.

What in particular about the Lazarus Project bothered you?  That they didn't explain what the hell they did?  Which would have just been a compilation of techno/medical babble that the fanbase would just tear apart anyway and complain about that.  Or the speed with which Shepard seems to deal with the revelation that he/she was brought back from the dead?  Or something I missed?

Same goes for Miranda shooting Wilson; what in particular is your issue?

Wilson hacking the mechs we get a bit more insight into durring LotSB when we discover he was being paid by the Shadow Broker.  My guess is the plan was to kill everyone on the station (except still unconcious Shepard) and sell Shepard to the Shadow Broker who would sell him to the Collectors.  It's made clear in his first log entry we find that he's a greedy bastard who wants more money (and well he should; spitting in the face of god as he is) which provides us with motivation.  How a medical doctor hacked the mechs I honestly don't know.

As for Jacob's "I'm bored." I just take it as him being the more human of the pair and trying to subtley tell Miranda to stfu because they've already thrown a lot at Shepard to process.  Just my interpretation of events take it for what it's worth.

While I agree with most everything you said, I would like to say that it would have been nice if they had alteast tried to build up the Lazarus Project's impact. For being such a pivotal plot point (Doesn't get much more pivotal than the main character being brought back to life.) It felt to me very much like a catch and release; everyone just comes to terms with the fact that Shepard was dead for two years, and just "got better." The only exception being the Virmire Survivor, but don't get me started on that scene because it was a complete eyesore.

My point is, some actual emotion beyond "Shepard? OMG you're alive! Let's go kill things again!" would have been appreciated.

[Inutaisho7996]

Padzi wrote...

Sgt Stryker ...
Regarding your Reason #6:
Ever since I played Arrival, I have come to the conclusion that Harbinger never intended for the Human Reaper to be Sovereign's replacement. Instead, I see it as little more than a prototype/proof-of-concept model, designed to make certain the humans are compatible with Reaper reproduction. The reason they have the Collectors do the experimentation in ME2 is just so the Reapers don't have to do that step once they reach Earth.

I would agree with you if for not two issues
that come up during the game.
The collectors determined that the humans are
compatible a lot earlier, that is why they bought so many slaves from different
races to experiment on.
Also at the end of the game Harbringer says something
like this:

- You failed us, we will find another way.

So that
means it wasn't a side plan but a full plan B.

Arrival happened only
after the Collector base was destroyed and his plan B failed.

I've always thought the collectors were getting a head start on the new reaper. There is no way the collectors could have finished it without the reapers. There aren't enough humans in the Terminous Systems to complete it. They'd have to eventually attack the colonies in Council Space, and that would get the attention of the council.

[KevShep]

What does not make sense to me is that the collector base does not look reaper-ish like everything else the reapers have, nor does the O4 relay.

We have to wait for ME3 because it looks like ME2 is FULL of holes. These hole are most likely spoilers for ME3.

Modifié par KevShep, 24 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[mredders91]

KevShep wrote...

What does not make sense to me is that the collector base does not look reaper-ish like everything else the reapers have, nor does the O4 relay.

We have to wait for ME3 because it looks like ME2 is FULL of holes. These hole are most likely spoilers for ME3.

likey due to the fact that they used the indoctrinated prothean to create the station. the omega 4 relays is larger and red coloured due to the fact that the relays requiers more energy that other realy due to its traveling from on end of the galaxie to the center its has been said in codex pages that relays can be diferent size depending on how far away they travel

Modifié par mredders91, 24 août 2011 - 03:29 .

[Yakko77]

Tali's treason trial. The Admirals say her loyalty was never in question, only her judgement. Isn't an act of treason a betrayal of loyalty? At best she should've been charged with negligent homicide and even that's a stretch.

Also, I thought the game bordered on "class-warfare" a bit. Giana Parasini seems to go after corrupt people not because they're corrupt but because she was poor and overlooked by the rich when growing up and seemingly goes after them just as much for being rich. Niket also complained about being poor, knew the reasons Miranda fled her father and took his money to betray Miranda's sister to the same egomaniac in some blind assumption that Miranda was better off running off but not her sister somehow. His motives were also cloudy at best.

Also, the SB was mad at Fist in ME1 for betraying him in regards to the info Tali had regarding Saren and the Geth/Reapers and hired Wrex to take him out but did a 180 in ME2 and started working with the Collectors who were pawns for the Reapers which I assume he knew. Unless I misinterpreted something....

[KevShep]

mredders91 wrote...

 the omega 4 relays is larger and red coloured due to the fact that the relays requiers more energy that other

The alpha relay is blue/white and it can go to any relay so I think that there is a different reason why its red. I personally dont believe that it is a reaper construct at all.

Modifié par KevShep, 24 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[DPSSOC]

BentOrgy wrote...
While I agree with most everything you said, I would like to say that it would have been nice if they had alteast tried to build up the Lazarus Project's impact. For being such a pivotal plot point (Doesn't get much more pivotal than the main character being brought back to life.) It felt to me very much like a catch and release; everyone just comes to terms with the fact that Shepard was dead for two years, and just "got better." The only exception being the Virmire Survivor, but don't get me started on that scene because it was a complete eyesore.

My point is, some actual emotion beyond "Shepard? OMG you're alive! Let's go kill things again!" would have been appreciated.

In complete agreement with you, my post was more to point out that broad statements like "No mention of the Lazarus Project?" aren't helpful, and taking stabs at what the poster's problems might have been with it in an attemt to get him/her to elaborate.  For example my issue with the Lazarus Project is similar to yours in that it's never touched upon, ever.  We get vague references to it but once he/she is up and running Shepard doesn't give it a second thought and nobody brings it up.  That's an entire round of dialogue just begging to be written.

My issue with Wilson's actions are that it took a bridging DLC to explain what the hell he was up to.  The logs we come across paint him as discontent but it's not until LotSB that we get a reason for him to go from surly employee to mass murderer.  All it would have taken was a simple log about how the Illusive man won't have any use for him after the project's complete to give him at least some motivation for going postal via "You took mah job!"

And the list goes on.  If we want Bioware to learn and improve we need to offer precise, constructive criticism (much as the OP has done).  Just saying you didn't like a certain plot point doesn't do anyone any good.

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

mredders91 wrote...

 the omega 4 relays is larger and red coloured due to the fact that the relays requiers more energy that other

The alpha relay is blue/white and it can go to any relay so I think that there is a different reason why its red. I personally dont believe that it is a reaper construct at all.

Its quite possible that the Collector's built the Omega 4 Relay on the Reaper's orders. After their latest Extinction Cycle, the Reapers wanted their new toys to have a safe house where no one would be able to find them. The Galactic Core, and hence a Relay to it, provided the best choice.

It looks different, because while they were given the data to build one, perhaps they couldn't build it as percisely (Or as pretty) as the others. Possibly due to their dumbed-down brainpower due to indoctrination. And before anyone says "But the Protheans made the Conduit! They made one perfectly!" I again point you to the indoctrination problem.

[Padzi]

Sgt Stryker ..

Yes, you have hard time accepting that and
your fanboy defense mechanizm kicks in. Because something you like isn't well
written or the narrative fails to establish important plot points you are
inducing things - making things up to fill the gaps and defend the plot. That's
a really bad way to analyze a plot. The same thing goes about your
interpretation of Harbringer's words. You are doing the writers job for them.
Please stop.

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

Its quite possible that the Collector's built the Omega 4 Relay on the Reaper's orders. After their latest Extinction Cycle, the Reapers wanted their new toys to have a safe house where no one would be able to find them. The Galactic Core, and hence a Relay to it, provided the best choice.

It looks different, because while they were given the data to build one, perhaps they couldn't build it as percisely (Or as pretty) as the others. Possibly due to their dumbed-down brainpower due to indoctrination. And before anyone says "But the Protheans made the Conduit! They made one perfectly!" I again point you to the indoctrination problem.

The Conduit was not perfect....it could only go in one direction and it was also a really small one. Now follow me on this one....ME wiki states for an unusual reason that the protheans mined out the rock that would become known as Omega station(notice the wirters hand in this). This rock was mined out for its "Ezo"....this is what the relays are made of! This station is right by the O4 relay. (notice again that the writers mention that it was mined out by the protheans....why?). Could in fact the protheans have mined out the rock and built there own relay? Why else would the writers mention something that seems so irrelevant? Unless it IS relevant! One more thing...The writers also go so far as to give them the same name(does this have to mean anything?..no but its interesting) Omega station and Omega 4 relay.

Modifié par KevShep, 24 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Padzi wrote...

Sgt Stryker ..

Yes, you have hard time accepting that and
your fanboy defense mechanizm kicks in. Because something you like isn't well
written or the narrative fails to establish important plot points you are
inducing things - making things up to fill the gaps and defend the plot. That's
a really bad way to analyze a plot. The same thing goes about your
interpretation of Harbringer's words. You are doing the writers job for them.
Please stop.

What do you want me to do? Petion BioWare to do a rewrite of Mass Effect 2? Yeah, that'll see the light of day.

Yes, I admit that Mass Effect 2's plot had a few hiccups. In an ideal world, BioWare would have done well to invest in more editing to clean things up and make sure there was more internal consistency. However, since the real world is hardly ideal, that did not happen, and we have to work with what BioWare gave us. Furthermore, simply throwing your hands up and yelling PLOT HOLE really doesn't add much to a discussion.

Oh, and I found that "please stop" comment a little condescending. I do not take orders from you.

EDIT: Mac Walters says hi.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 24 août 2011 - 09:29 .

[KevShep]

Collectors attacking before the reaper invason is just plain stupid. Point being?....Just look how that turned out! There is no reason to not wait for the invasion. Since the invasion takes about 200 years or so then that is plenty of time to do what ever the collectors/reapers "really" need to do!

BTW....In ME1 I always wondered why the reapers did not take down the prothean prototype relay. Even if they did not know it was a relay they would still take it down because all evidence is supposed to be removed. This encludes statues and monuments.

[wolfennights]

PHub88 wrote...

wolfennights wrote...

No mention of the Lazarus Project? Or Miranda shooting Wilson? Or Wilson hacking the mechs? Or Miranda trying to ask Shepard questions but being interrupted with Jacob's "WELL, I'M BORED" and thus taking out any insight we could have had on Shep?

Cus those were some pretty big things to me.

Has it been like 15 months since you played? Almost all of that is explained no need to go into insane depth about it. During that short intro while going through dialogue and listening to audio files it becomes clear Wilson is starting to become annoyed with not being appreciated. He happens to be where he doesnt have clearance, happens to know most of the mechs are in the wing Miranda is in, mentions that theres no way she survived more than once, acts totally shocked Shepard is alive and almost starts to think out loud. Its obvious as heck and Miranda isnt retarded so she shot him. 

Lazarus project, seriously. Shepard died in SPACE and they managed to recover his body and bring him back to life. Im glad they didnt try getting into specifics..it would have been a bunch of big words and ridiculous concepts...the thought of bringing someone back to life is ridiculous...let alone dying the way Shepard did. As of questions about it. I can understand why they didnt bother throwing a ton of that in there. If that happened to you, you could likely chat about it all day long...might as well just avoid it for the sake of throwing the Collectors right in your face and getting down to business. Althogh slightly more information later on would have beeen nice.

that post was actually about an hour after starting a new game. I'll admit that I didn't read through this thread, and that it was an unfair assumption to make at this point. Especially since we still have ME3 to answer all these questions.

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Its quite possible that the Collector's built the Omega 4 Relay on the Reaper's orders. After their latest Extinction Cycle, the Reapers wanted their new toys to have a safe house where no one would be able to find them. The Galactic Core, and hence a Relay to it, provided the best choice.

It looks different, because while they were given the data to build one, perhaps they couldn't build it as percisely (Or as pretty) as the others. Possibly due to their dumbed-down brainpower due to indoctrination. And before anyone says "But the Protheans made the Conduit! They made one perfectly!" I again point you to the indoctrination problem.

The Conduit was not perfect....it could only go in one direction and it was also a really small one. Now follow me on this one....ME wiki states for an unusual reason that the protheans mined out the rock that would become known as Omega station(notice the wirters hand in this). This rock was mined out for its "Ezo"....this is what the relays are made of! This station is right by the O4 relay. (notice again that the writers mention that it was mined out by the protheans....why?). Could in fact the protheans have mined out the rock and built there own relay? Why else would the writers mention something that seems so irrelevant? Unless it IS relevant! One more thing...The writers also go so far as to give them the same name(does this have to mean anything?..no but its interesting) Omega station and Omega 4 relay.

"Perfect" was poetic license, but whatever, it was a fully functioning relay that still looked like all the others, no matter how much smaller it was.

Convient that you left out the part where it states that they only "briefly" mined it, and that they "abandoned" it soon after due to its crust being to hard to deal with. It was an asteroid that exposed its insides. Its highly unlikely therefore, that they mined enough to power a relay, considering they proabably require a hell of a lot more to function.

And they were presumably given the same name because they are both in the "Omega" nebula. Nothing weird about that.

[CajNatalie]

I find it funny that there needs to be a thread telling people that ME2's uh... 'plot'?... makes no sense...

But regardless, I think the OP deserves a pat on the back and some cookies for writing that post out.
I read it. Good job.

[Jafroboy]

I agree with what you said, but it doesnt make the game not make sense. Its just things that arnt done right, sure shepard should have taken a fleet with him to the collector base, but the fact that he didnt doesnt make the story broken, its just a dumb move.

[Tajtusek]

 MRFOB
[quote]MrFob wrote...
Actually I just wanted to add a general comment on the "plot-hole" seekers (I know it has been discussed to death but still):The problem with most of the suggested plot-holes is that IMO people go about it the wrong way around. Most people call plot-holes when they can come up with some scenario that makes more sense to them and thus say the story as it is told in the game has flaws.[/quote]
Yes that is a definition of a plot-hole. If you have a situation in a game where several other situations would make more sense and the narrative don't explains why this outcome is the one we see - then it's a plot hole. If you can apply logic to something and it doesn't hold up and you don't even have a "handwave" masking such fact then yes it's a plot hole. 
[quote]If you want to find real plot-holes, you have to analyse a weirdness and if you cannot come up with any reason why this could happen, you might just have found one.[/quote]
That is also a plot hole. When a situation is weird and you can't find any explanation why the writters would do this, then yes it's also a plot hole. 

[quote]I'll give you and example of a very minor issue in ME1: - ME1 takes place within the year 2183. It begins in that year. ME2 takes place in 2185. Avina states in ME2 that you haven't been on the Citadel for more than 2 years so ME1 must have ended 2182 as well. That means the events of ME1 take place within that year.- The difference between earth years and galactic standard years is minimal (1.043) and for this issue we most likely deal with earth time exclusively anyway.- Humannity celebrates the anniversary of the end of the first contact war with the Armistice Day once a year- Ashley asks Shep to toast with her on Armistice Day on the Normandy pretty early in the game. After that you still have to do a couple of missions, put in at least a couple of flight days.- On the citadel right before you go to Illos, you can see a Terra Firma demonstration in the citadel wards, lead by Charles Saracino who declares that they are marking Armistice Day with a protest.Now that is a plot-hole as far as I can see. IMO there is no way Armistice Day could uccor twice in the time frame of ME1 and the time between Ash's toast and the demo is too long for both events to happen within one day. If anyone has an explanation please let me know, I am trying to come up with something ever since ME1 now.[/quote]
Bravo you given us legitimate plot holes. Minor as they are, they are still plot holes, because the writters didn't care about the flow of time. 


D1SCIPLE
[quote]d1sciple wrote...
i don't think it needs to be argued all that much, basically the first 2 points and most of the last would render the game finished. so what, you'd play for an hour until the galaxy grew some common sense and the game would end with everyone uniting and saving the day? in actuality it's the most likely scenario, who the hell could deny sovereign existed? sure as hell not the millions on the citadel, but then there would be no game. it's a purposeful dumbing down to give us a developing story. i don't think it's much to do with imagination or plot holes, logically it can't be perfect as then there'd be no game. ME1 had a much simpler story to pull off, four basic story missions, one man trying to find the answers in a big galaxy, easy stuff to draw out and stay believable, ME2 on the other hand is something else. here you've got the same basic heroes journey but it's alot bigger and it has to end up back at the start for it to not only be a game but also lead into the final in the trilogy. basic story writing. you can argue fleet size and council blindness and TIM actually having physical evidence of reapers but if it was too realistic there'd be no game, just a couple minutes text, a cutscene and the end.[/quote]
The plot not making sense is not an excuse. The argument that, if it did the game would be over, is false. A good writter team would be able to make a plot that is a sensible and still have the game last those 40 hours. For example it could've been about the Alliance believing Shepard and making joint operation when he came back against the Collectors and trying to stop the Reapers from arriving or something else. There were so many possibilites but they went with basically rehashing the 1st game but without a strong Villain character. You're again fighting the "Proxy Wars" against Reapers' puns and nothing get's resolved. 



KEVSHEP
[quote]KevShep wrote...[/quote]

[quote].Iam sick of people taking the story at face value. For example- If the story from ME1 is taken at face value then Cerberus would not be a major player in ME2,[/quote]
You are right but not for the reason you stated. Cerberus in ME2 is a retcon. In ME1 Cerberus was a black ops Alliance cell that went rogue few months before ME1. In ME2 they are suddenly a huge independant organization that existed years before ME1. That's like showing us the middle finger. They completly changed an established fact because they didn't know what to do with it, and they pretend it was always like that. That is bad writing. Retcons are never good. 
[quote] nor would the omega 4 relay.[/quote]
Why wouldn't Omega 4 relaty play a role? Collectors were already established in ME1 codex. 

[quote] There is always something big hidden in the shadows of the story that your NOT going to see untill your almost at the end of ME3! The reapers motives are still UNKOWN people!!!!!!!!!!![/quote] 
There is a difference between not showing something to keep the mystery intact for the benefit of the plot and keeping the mystery so just to keep one and through it damaging the plot. 

[quote]As for the reason for the human reaper? Well I really doubt that it was going to be used to retake the citedal. All you need to do is indocrtinate someone like Shepard to just walk up to the controls and open the relay.....[/quote]
The Citadel control unit was destroyed during the battle for the Citadel. 

[quote]Collectors attacking before the reaper invason is just plain stupid. Point being?....Just look how that turned out! There is no reason to not wait for the invasion. Since the invasion takes about 200 years or so then that is plenty of time to do what ever the collectors/reapers "really" need to do! [/quote]
Thank you! That is exactly what I'm saying. The invasion process takes centuries and that's when the Relay Network is not operating. With the Relays operational it will be even harder. So why not just wait for the invasion it's not like it was a long time to wait for it. A little over 2 years and the Reapers were already at the Alpha Relay. Why draw more attention to your plans? That's just an excuse to have the second game about a suicide mission and not about something sensible. 



DPSSOC
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Here is the major flaw in this argument.  The colonies being targetted are not Alliance colonies.  They may be human colonies but they have no ties to the Alliance government and therefore no ties to the Council.  Furthermore this is strictly a human problem so the Council (and this is covered in a news report I believe) won't get involved because as a Council race humanity has to be able to take care of it's own issues as well as those of the greater galactic community.  This may be hypocritical considering the Krogan Rebellions but the idea of the Council being a corrupt, inneffectual, and outright tyrannical organization is already a thoroughly beaten dead horse so I won't go into it. [/quote]
True they are not Alliance colonies, but the Alliance had a policy of helping Human Colonies in the Terminus systems to bring them back to the Alliance. Building a defence grid (which is costly) and sending one of their best to soldiers to oversee the installment is a best example. Also sending aid ships when the Colonies go dark is an another example. But more important issue is the political backlash the Alliance gets from those attacks. Even on Omega you can hear in the radio stations on Omega. A Batarian calling the Alliance weak because it's unable to defend it's Colonies, and when Humans look weak - one of the main forces protecting Citadel Space after the Turians suffered many losses - the entire Citadel Space looks weak. The Alliance and the Council should care about those colonies and as it shown in ME2 they do, but don't have a real evidence to do anything about it. Sheaprd could've provided them with such, but didn't. And also convince Aria to help using those evidence as she was also attacked by the Collectors (I explained it in a different post). Shepard not doing anything in this matter is just dumb. The Alliance even has to corsairs a force that officially isn't working for the Alliance. Jacob served with them, don't you think the Aliiance wouldn't send at least them if they knew against what they're fighting? 


SGTSTRYKER
[quote]What do you want me to do? Petion BioWare to do a rewrite of Mass Effect 2? Yeah, that'll see the light of day.
Yes, I admit that Mass Effect 2's plot had a few hiccups. In an ideal world, BioWare would have done well to invest in more editing to clean things up and make sure there was more internal consistency. However, since the real world is hardly ideal, that did not happen, and we have to work with what BioWare gave us. Furthermore, simply throwing your hands up and yelling PLOT HOLE really doesn't add much to a discussion.
Oh, and I found that "please stop" comment a little condescending. I do not take orders from you.
EDIT: Mac Walters says hi.[/quote]
1. You are in a position that whatever Bioware gives us we should just take it and don't complain about it, or maybe I'm wrong but it sure seems that way. And no one tells you to write a petition, but Bioware staff reads this forum, it's here because of a reason. We can't save ME2 but we can save future games from having bad plots by telling them why we think the the plots they gave us are bad/flawed/have hiccupes or whatever you want to call it. So by making up reasons to defend such issues, reasons don't exactly stated in the narrative it isn't really helpful. Also I didn't see Padzi throwing arms and a shouting plot hole. That user was just expressing his opinion on your stance in this discussion.
2. Hi, Mac Walters - Ok, I can accept that the Reapers were FTLing before ME2 after "the word of god" (name of a trope) was shown. But I will still call it bad writing. It should've been stated in the game not, on Twitter. I doubt every ME2 gamer is using it. I will again use the Empire Strikes Back analogy because Bioware keeps reffering to ME2 as their verion of ESB. 
Imagine ESB where you didn't get to know why Darth Vader was so obsessed with Luke, and didn't get to know his true indentity. And a year later George Lucas printed in the newspaper - Oh and by the way - Vader is Luke's father. It's like that with ME2. As the second act of the story where some mysteries should be revealed we learn virtually nothing new. We didn't learn that Reapers were already FTL'ing, we don't learn why the Reapers need organic beigns (for reproduction but why?) We don't learn anything about the Reaper's origins, we don't learn what exactly makes humans so special (it's only implied by Mordin), We don't get to learn how the Reapers are planning to get to our galaxy, We don't get to learn why Wilson betrayed us and the list goes on (Shadow Broker DLC  and Arrival DLC are not part of the ME2 main storyline) ME2 is a game with questions but no real answers. And why? Because it was all pushed back to ME3 or DLC's. Ok fine, your choice Bioware, but that ends up making ME2 a game you can basically skip, because it doesn't progresses the plot forward in any meaningful way. And that's bad. I just don't want to see something like this again, when Bioware decides to make another trilogy of games. 



CAJNATALIE
[quote]CajNatalie wrote...
I find it funny that there needs to be a thread telling people that ME2's uh... 'plot'?... makes no sense...
But regardless, I think the OP deserves a pat on the back and some cookies for writing that post out.I read it. Good job.[/quote]
Thanks - Gets a cookie. 

Modifié par Tajtusek, 25 août 2011 - 04:01 .

[MrFob]

Tajtusek wrote...

 MRFOB

MrFob wrote...
Actually I just wanted to add a general comment on the "plot-hole" seekers (I know it has been discussed to death but still):The problem with most of the suggested plot-holes is that IMO people go about it the wrong way around. Most people call plot-holes when they can come up with some scenario that makes more sense to them and thus say the story as it is told in the game has flaws.

Yes that is a definition of a plot-hole. If you have a situation in a game where several other situations would make more sense and the narrative don't explains why this outcome is the one we see - then it's a plot hole. If you can apply logic to something and it doesn't hold up and you don't even have a "handwave" masking such fact then yes it's a plot hole. 

I disagree because the logic you apply make a lot of assumptions. If I just make some different ones in order to apply logic to explain the plot, then this is just as valid. As I said, IMO it's pretty bad writing to leave as much to the imagination of the player as ME2s plot did but all the reasons you gave for things not to work actually require just as much imagination on your part.
However, I don't want to hinder your discussion. If that is how you get fun out of analyzing the plot, then that is great and I'd suggest we just agree to disagree on the definition of a plot-hole.

[sorentoft]

1. It was. An invasion is very clearly not an option because of the nature of the relay(and that you have no scouting information), you need a Reaper IFF, not something an entire fleet can get. Stealth is simply the best option.
1a. The Alliance barely has the military power to hold onto its colonies and you want them to blockade the relay? That is silly. Nothing guarantee that the Collectors cannot simply ping-pong to other relay immediately or have another base from where they can continue their operation. Aside from that they need to defend from other things than merely the Collectors.
1b. And why not? Paragon Shepard has always been to stop the bad guys before they get a chance to hurt more. Removing the Collector threat is the obvious step to stop them. Sure as hell better than waiting around for the Arrival.
1c. The point is moot. The Alliance does act, but within their means. They defend large colonies and evacuate small ones. Also for the whole sending vids... It is made abundantly clear that the Council and the top Alliance dogs knows what is going on but they are not willing to admit it and certainly not willing to start a panic.

2. See the latter of 1c.

3. There are, and enough to be plausible. The game has 2 spectres, Shepard and the DLC Asari. Also the main story was always to stop the reapers, becoming a spectre was merely an explanation why Shepard can go around everywhere and carry weapons and blow **** up.

4. The difference is traditionalism vs. innovation. Wrex wants to reform the Krogan while Wreav merely wants to unite them - it is the same reason why Wrex and his father disagreed and the guy became a merc in the first place.

5. There is a difference between being hit by an asteroid at immense speed and being flown off in a shockwave from a supernova. The science team probably also aimed at a calculated weak spot in the relay construct, causing it to crash to pieces.

6. It is very likely that Harbinger was just running a local science experiment while the reaper fleet was approaching the galaxy to invade or is that just utterly crazy? I mean it is very obvious that the reapers are invading before Shepard blows up the Collector base. Had he been 2 hours too late the reapers would have invaded Earth and could thus finish the human reaper.

7. Me too. ME .

Modifié par sorentoft, 25 août 2011 - 08:57 .