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The reason why the plot of ME2 doesn't make sense.


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#51
MaaZeus

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sorentoft wrote...

1. It was. An invasion is very clearly not an option because of the nature of the relay(and that you have no scouting information), you need a Reaper IFF, not something an entire fleet can get. Stealth is simply the best option.
1a. The Alliance barely has the military power to hold onto its colonies and you want them to blockade the relay? That is silly. Nothing guarantee that the Collectors cannot simply ping-pong to other relay immediately or have another base from where they can continue their operation. Aside from that they need to defend from other things than merely the Collectors.
1b. And why not? Paragon Shepard has always been to stop the bad guys before they get a chance to hurt more. Removing the Collector threat is the obvious step to stop them. Sure as hell better than waiting around for the Arrival.
1c. The point is moot. The Alliance does act, but within their means. They defend large colonies and evacuate small ones. Also for the whole sending vids... It is made abundantly clear that the Council and the top Alliance dogs knows what is going on but they are not willing to admit it and certainly not willing to start a panic.

2. See the latter of 1c.

3. There are, and enough to be plausible. The game has 2 spectres, Shepard and the DLC Asari. Also the main story was always to stop the reapers, becoming a spectre was merely an explanation why Shepard can go around everywhere and carry weapons and blow **** up.

4. The difference is traditionalism vs. innovation. Wrex wants to reform the Krogan while Wreav merely wants to unite them - it is the same reason why Wrex and his father disagreed and the guy became a merc in the first place.

5. There is a difference between being hit by an asteroid at immense speed and being flown off in a shockwave from a supernova. The science team probably also aimed at a calculated weak spot in the relay construct, causing it to crash to pieces.

6. It is very likely that Harbinger was just running a local science experiment while the reaper fleet was approaching the galaxy to invade or is that just utterly crazy? I mean it is very obvious that the reapers are invading before Shepard blows up the Collector base. Had he been 2 hours too late the reapers would have invaded Earth and could thus finish the human reaper.


7. Me too. ME <3.




Above Mac Walters twitter comment confirms that Reapers started moving after the events of ME1 and the Human Reaper was supposed to be a new reaper, not a new Vanguard. So, common sense tells us that the Collectors were just doing the ground work. They lack power to challence the whole Alliance (or whatever race they would have targeted) Fleet but thats not something Reapers lack once they have arrived.

So, if it werent for Shepard Reapers would have gone around, systematically destroy every fleet and whatever is resisting them and Collectors would just merrily go around collecting the resources and finished the project they started. There, new Reaper to join their ranks. Perfectly plausible plan.

Of course there is still the issue with the original ME2 ending, "You have failed, we will another way etc". Taken at face value this sentence really indicates that the Human Reaper was some kind of Plan B no matter how you look it. Twisting a simple sentence like this around (without any other sentences around it for context) and finding supposedly different meanings to it would be just silly, so there is only one word I can give you, word I also hate: Retcon. <_<

Well, it has happened before so why not now... I just hope Bioware tries to keep it minimum.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 25 août 2011 - 10:53 .


#52
Snowraptor

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the only problem i had with mass effect 2 is that it lact that warm mysterious and the vibrant ambient tunes and a stronger based plot (not that me2 plot is weak) i miss those feelings in mass effect 1, in me2 everything feels kinda rushed and dont like the waste time to recruit squad members that should have been in the first part of the game in me2, then we should have had some more conflicts with the collectors like some sort of secret war with the reapers, like i was hoping for that, or brainwashed batarians (like saren) i miss the me 1 elements.... i hope they add them in me3

#53
sorentoft

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MaaZeus wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

1. It was. An invasion is very clearly not an option because of the nature of the relay(and that you have no scouting information), you need a Reaper IFF, not something an entire fleet can get. Stealth is simply the best option.
1a. The Alliance barely has the military power to hold onto its colonies and you want them to blockade the relay? That is silly. Nothing guarantee that the Collectors cannot simply ping-pong to other relay immediately or have another base from where they can continue their operation. Aside from that they need to defend from other things than merely the Collectors.
1b. And why not? Paragon Shepard has always been to stop the bad guys before they get a chance to hurt more. Removing the Collector threat is the obvious step to stop them. Sure as hell better than waiting around for the Arrival.
1c. The point is moot. The Alliance does act, but within their means. They defend large colonies and evacuate small ones. Also for the whole sending vids... It is made abundantly clear that the Council and the top Alliance dogs knows what is going on but they are not willing to admit it and certainly not willing to start a panic.

2. See the latter of 1c.

3. There are, and enough to be plausible. The game has 2 spectres, Shepard and the DLC Asari. Also the main story was always to stop the reapers, becoming a spectre was merely an explanation why Shepard can go around everywhere and carry weapons and blow **** up.

4. The difference is traditionalism vs. innovation. Wrex wants to reform the Krogan while Wreav merely wants to unite them - it is the same reason why Wrex and his father disagreed and the guy became a merc in the first place.

5. There is a difference between being hit by an asteroid at immense speed and being flown off in a shockwave from a supernova. The science team probably also aimed at a calculated weak spot in the relay construct, causing it to crash to pieces.

6. It is very likely that Harbinger was just running a local science experiment while the reaper fleet was approaching the galaxy to invade or is that just utterly crazy? I mean it is very obvious that the reapers are invading before Shepard blows up the Collector base. Had he been 2 hours too late the reapers would have invaded Earth and could thus finish the human reaper.


7. Me too. ME <3.




Above Mac Walters twitter comment confirms that Reapers started moving after the events of ME1 and the Human Reaper was supposed to be a new reaper, not a new Vanguard. So, common sense tells us that the Collectors were just doing the ground work. They lack power to challence the whole Alliance (or whatever race they would have targeted) Fleet but thats not something Reapers lack once they have arrived.

So, if it werent for Shepard Reapers would have gone around, systematically destroy every fleet and whatever is resisting them and Collectors would just merrily go around collecting the resources and finished the project they started. There, new Reaper to join their ranks. Perfectly plausible plan.

Of course there is still the issue with the original ME2 ending, "You have failed, we will another way etc". Taken at face value this sentence really indicates that the Human Reaper was some kind of Plan B no matter how you look it. Twisting a simple sentence like this around (without any other sentences around it for context) and finding supposedly different meanings to it would be just silly, so there is only one word I can give you, word I also hate: Retcon. <_<


Well, it has happened before so why not now... I just hope Bioware tries to keep it minimum.

Indeed.

Also to the bolded part... No I would not count it as a retcon. True the human reaper was a plan B - the original plan was after all to swarm the galaxy when Sovereign got things fixed. When Shepard+team and the fifth fleet destroyed the reaper however humanity got the attention of the reapers... What Harbinger is saying when he says "we will find another way" is merely that they will find another way to make a human reaper - with or without the collectors. :)

#54
MaaZeus

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sorentoft wrote...


Also to the bolded part... No I would not count it as a retcon. True the human reaper was a plan B - the original plan was after all to swarm the galaxy when Sovereign got things fixed. When Shepard+team and the fifth fleet destroyed the reaper however humanity got the attention of the reapers... What Harbinger is saying when he says "we will find another way" is merely that they will find another way to make a human reaper - with or without the collectors. :)


Hmmm... you may be correct, but we cant be sure. I mean, if it werent for Arrival we would have no idea if Reapers were on the move or not, so the scale still favors the explanation that Human Reaper was supposed to be new Vanguard or something.


But we could be discussing this for the rest of our lives without clear answer, because really there is none.

#55
sorentoft

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MaaZeus wrote...

sorentoft wrote...


Also to the bolded part... No I would not count it as a retcon. True the human reaper was a plan B - the original plan was after all to swarm the galaxy when Sovereign got things fixed. When Shepard+team and the fifth fleet destroyed the reaper however humanity got the attention of the reapers... What Harbinger is saying when he says "we will find another way" is merely that they will find another way to make a human reaper - with or without the collectors. :)


Hmmm... you may be correct, but we cant be sure. I mean, if it werent for Arrival we would have no idea if Reapers were on the move or not, so the scale still favors the explanation that Human Reaper was supposed to be new Vanguard or something.


But we could be discussing this for the rest of our lives without clear answer, because really there is none.

Even without the Arrival DLC I would find it sort of implied that Harbinger talks of making a human reaper. Vanguard or not. ^.-

#56
MaaZeus

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sorentoft wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

sorentoft wrote...


Also to the bolded part... No I would not count it as a retcon. True the human reaper was a plan B - the original plan was after all to swarm the galaxy when Sovereign got things fixed. When Shepard+team and the fifth fleet destroyed the reaper however humanity got the attention of the reapers... What Harbinger is saying when he says "we will find another way" is merely that they will find another way to make a human reaper - with or without the collectors. :)


Hmmm... you may be correct, but we cant be sure. I mean, if it werent for Arrival we would have no idea if Reapers were on the move or not, so the scale still favors the explanation that Human Reaper was supposed to be new Vanguard or something.


But we could be discussing this for the rest of our lives without clear answer, because really there is none.

Even without the Arrival DLC I would find it sort of implied that Harbinger talks of making a human reaper. Vanguard or not. ^.-


I reaaaally doubt it. Before Arrival DLC arrived (no pun) everybody was talking about Human Reaper being Sovereigns replacement. (and how silly it would look Human Reaper flying into Citadel superman style and having some sweet qualitytime with Citadel tower :P)

I do firmly believe that your current interpetation of that sentence is influenced by the information gathered from Arrival DLC. So, I still stand by my Retcon opinion.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 26 août 2011 - 11:30 .


#57
sorentoft

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MaaZeus wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

sorentoft wrote...


Also to the bolded part... No I would not count it as a retcon. True the human reaper was a plan B - the original plan was after all to swarm the galaxy when Sovereign got things fixed. When Shepard+team and the fifth fleet destroyed the reaper however humanity got the attention of the reapers... What Harbinger is saying when he says "we will find another way" is merely that they will find another way to make a human reaper - with or without the collectors. :)


Hmmm... you may be correct, but we cant be sure. I mean, if it werent for Arrival we would have no idea if Reapers were on the move or not, so the scale still favors the explanation that Human Reaper was supposed to be new Vanguard or something.


But we could be discussing this for the rest of our lives without clear answer, because really there is none.

Even without the Arrival DLC I would find it sort of implied that Harbinger talks of making a human reaper. Vanguard or not. ^.-


I reaaaally doubt it. Before Arrival DLC arrived (no pun) everybody was talking about Human Reaper being Sovereigns replacement. (and how silly it would look Human Reaper flying into Citadel superman style and having some sweet qualitytime with Citadel tower :P)

I do firmly believe that your current interpetation of that sentence is influenced by the information gathered from Arrival DLC. So, I still stand by my Retcon opinion.

If anything the Arrival DLC has merely cemented my beliefs. :) I was not actively lurking this forum when ME2 came out, so I would not know about that. It may also have to do with that I had only played ME1 through one time quickly before going to ME2 (someone recommended the game to me and I really got to like it).

As for the human reaper looking silly... Well there was a theory around that reapers all have the same exterior and only their interior is dependent on the species they were made from. That may also explain why there are so many reapers looking just the same, or it is simply because Bioware could not be arsed making a billion reaper models. :)

#58
DPSSOC

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Tajtusek wrote...
DPSSOC

DPSSOC wrote...
snip

True they are not Alliance colonies, but the Alliance had a policy of helping Human Colonies in the Terminus systems to bring them back to the Alliance. Building a defence grid (which is costly) and sending one of their best to soldiers to oversee the installment is a best example. Also sending aid ships when the Colonies go dark is an another example.

 
Now is it ever established whether there is an actual outreach program?  My understanding based on what we're shown was that the whole outreach thing was just a cover.  Based on stuff we're told in game I figured; TIM leaks rumours of Shep working for Cerb, TIM leaks intel indicating Horizon is the next target, Alliance sends VS, Non-funtioning defense towers cover to keep VS on Horizon indefinitely until rumours and intel can be confirmed.  Admittedly the point that the Alliance intentionally sent guns that wouldn't work is entirely supposition on my part but it makes sense to me.  So is it stated, either in conversation or news, that there is an on-going outreach program to the Terminus colonies?

As for aid that doesn't really show much.  My country sends aid to lots of people for disaster relief, but we generally don't get involved in their goings on.  Nor do we send aid in the hopes of convincing those countries to become part of us.  It's generally just for good PR.

Tajtusek wrote...
But more important issue is the political backlash the Alliance gets from those attacks. Even on Omega you can hear in the radio stations on Omega. A Batarian calling the Alliance weak because it's unable to defend it's Colonies, and when Humans look weak - one of the main forces protecting Citadel Space after the Turians suffered many losses - the entire Citadel Space looks weak.

 
A fair point though this brings up a bit of an inconsistency I've noticed.  Are the Terminus Systems a threat or not?  We hear the Council and Anderson and Hackett talking about wanting to avoid a war with the Terminus, but if I'm not mistaken the Skyllian Blitz, the here-to largest unified action the Terminus has presented, was put down by the Alliance alone.  Same goes for the Batarians, on the one hand Bahak could start a war and this is apparently bad news but on the other humanity drove them out of an entire region of space (Attican Traverse) seemingly without taking any action that could be considered part of a war.

Tajtusek wrote...
The Alliance and the Council should care about those colonies and as it shown in ME2 they do, but don't have a real evidence to do anything about it. Sheaprd could've provided them with such, but didn't. And also convince Aria to help using those evidence as she was also attacked by the Collectors (I explained it in a different post). Shepard not doing anything in this matter is just dumb.


The Council cares about the colonies?  Did I miss a conversation?  I'll give you that the Alliance might, but the Council seems to almost have a "serves 'em right" attitude about the attacks (especially the Turian bastard).  As for Aria there is the question of how much she can do.  She has an iron-fist on Omega but are we given any indication her influence spreads beyond the cluster?  Personally I don't think she'd care if the Collectors were behind the plague, it was safely quarantined and never inconvenienced her so why should she take issue with it?

Tajtusek wrote...
The Alliance even has to corsairs a force that officially isn't working for the Alliance. Jacob served with them, don't you think the Aliiance wouldn't send at least them if they knew against what they're fighting?


Based on evidence from ME1 and the Alliance's grand contribution to fighting the Geth pre-Citadel (a single, untested prototype frigate) yeah I can quite easily believe the Alliance wouldn't send the Corsairs.  Hell the entire Alliance military doctrine is based on responsive tactics.  They wait until a colony is attacked, hope they can get an SOS off, and then send ships to assist.