312 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'm actually getting annyoyed that Bioware insist Dragon Age 2 is a step forward for the franchise. Yes, I liked the game, but myself, everybody I know who played the game, and many people online, including reviewers, agree that it was not as good as Origins. If that is the case then how is it a step forward? They call it polarising, but the people who think that it was better than origins overall seem to be a minority. It seems to be polarisation between people who think it was as good as Origins, and people who think it was much worse.

Fine. I'll say here that I enjoyed DA2 noticeably more than Origins and that Origins feels like a serious pain. I'll also say that the crafting system can take a long breath on a short shaft.

[IanPolaris]

MorrigansLove wrote...

This thread hasn't been locked yet?

The fighting stalled and a hockey game (reasonable discussion) broke out.

-Polaris

[Pwnsaur]

EJ107 wrote...

Yes, he may have overused swearing, and may have turned his arguments into a rant, but that does not change the fact that he has many valid points.

Agreed. I think what makes a lot of fans unhappy is the air of ignorance that BioWare is giving off in regards to fans complaints. Yes, an apology may not be necessary. But an acknowledgement that DA2 isn't the huge step forward they continue to say it is would be nice. Otherwise, the smug attitude of BioWare up to this point alludes to the continuation of poor design elements. The majority of gamers don't want less RPG elements, less dialogue choices, and more press X for awesome. Some do, sure... but I think that DA2 has proved that many more prefer the deeper and more robust experience that Origins had to offer.

[Ianamus]

Persephone wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

With that as the case it was nothing but a step back overall, and if it takes people yelling and swearing to make Bioware realise that, and that just taking a lot of features back to how they were in Origins is the real step forwards here, then so be it. 

I doubt that that is the kind of feedback they will note. The Constructive Criticism thread on the other hand....now there's a chance to be heard and being noticed by the devs.

You can't help but get tired of constuctive criticism when it leads nowhere. I get the feeling that howevermuch I, or other people, criticise the limitations of the dialogue wheel, or the simplification of the crafting system, these will still be going into the next game. If you swear, curse and shout, at least your words get noticed. 

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

I doubt that that is the kind of feedback they will note. The Constructive Criticism thread on the other hand....now there's a chance to be heard and being noticed by the devs.

The problem is when it comes to fundamental issues (like PC agency, silent protagonist...because voiced is just too limiting, and many others), a lot of us feel that Bioware has basically told a large section of it's (former) fanbase to go jump in a lake because we don't care about you.  We'd rather have a hipper newer set of customers (except for DA2 at least the new customers never showed up).  BW still tries to tell us that there are the "old customers" and "new custoemers" but the sales figures tell a different story.  The sales figures seem to indicate there are very few new customers and only a portion (about 40% at best...and that's assuming all the pre-order people like DA 2 which is almost certainly not going to be true) are loyal DA2 players.

In short, a lot of us think we are being played, and the new "openness" is too little and too late.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Pwnsaur wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Yes, he may have overused swearing, and may have turned his arguments into a rant, but that does not change the fact that he has many valid points.

Agreed. I think what makes a lot of fans unhappy is the air of ignorance that BioWare is giving off in regards to fans complaints. Yes, an apology may not be necessary. But an acknowledgement that DA2 isn't the huge step forward they continue to say it is would be nice. Otherwise, the smug attitude of BioWare up to this point alludes to the continuation of poor design elements. The majority of gamers don't want less RPG elements, less dialogue choices, and more press X for awesome. Some do, sure... but I think that DA2 has proved that many more prefer the deeper and more robust experience that Origins had to offer.

This I agree with as well.  There was a lot of stuff in DAO that was changed that wasn't in fact broken but BW (based on some of the interviews I've read) would rather crawl over broken glass than admit this and restore some of these prior elements (like silent antagonist or at least drop the dialog wheel).

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Pwnsaur wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Yes, he may have overused swearing, and may have turned his arguments into a rant, but that does not change the fact that he has many valid points.

Agreed. I think what makes a lot of fans unhappy is the air of ignorance that BioWare is giving off in regards to fans complaints. Yes, an apology may not be necessary. But an acknowledgement that DA2 isn't the huge step forward they continue to say it is would be nice. Otherwise, the smug attitude of BioWare up to this point alludes to the continuation of poor design elements. The majority of gamers don't want less RPG elements, less dialogue choices, and more press X for awesome. Some do, sure... but I think that DA2 has proved that many more prefer the deeper and more robust experience that Origins had to offer.

More dialogue choices maybe, but only if they continue with a voiced protagonist. I found it a truly invaluable tool for connecting with my character.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

More dialogue choices maybe, but only if they continue with a voiced protagonist. I found it a truly invaluable tool for connecting with my character.

While I disagree strongly with this PoV, I understand and sympathize with it.  It is easier to connect to a voiced protagonist but only if that voice matches (at least approximately) what the player wants/expects.  The problem with the voiced protagonist is that it puts the entire rest of the game into an unacceptable straightjacket when it comes to player choice in protagonists because unlike visual facial effects, you simply can't have dozens of different voice actors for the same character with any kind of reasonable budget.

-Polaris

[alex90c]

My two problems with a voiced protagonist is that:

1. if you don't like the voice you're screwed.
2. in multiple playthroughs it feels like you're making the same character. e.g., say you want to try and make some gritty badass female warrior in DA2, she'll still have that annoying posh voice where she pronounces every single letter rather than sounding more gruff.

[Il Divo]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

More dialogue choices maybe, but only if they continue with a voiced protagonist. I found it a truly invaluable tool for connecting with my character.

While I disagree strongly with this PoV, I understand and sympathize with it.  It is easier to connect to a voiced protagonist but only if that voice matches (at least approximately) what the player wants/expects.  The problem with the voiced protagonist is that it puts the entire rest of the game into an unacceptable straightjacket when it comes to player choice in protagonists because unlike visual facial effects, you simply can't have dozens of different voice actors for the same character with any kind of reasonable budget.

-Polaris

It's also an issue if you hate the voice the game chooses, especially when it's intended as the voice of your character.

[IanPolaris]

alex90c wrote...

My two problems with a voiced protagonist is that:

1. if you don't like the voice you're screwed.
2. in multiple playthroughs it feels like you're making the same character. e.g., say you want to try and make some gritty badass female warrior in DA2, she'll still have that annoying posh voice where she pronounces every single letter rather than sounding more gruff.

Indeed, and the only way to get around that with current technology is to have dozens of different voice actors for the protagonist and that's just not cost effective (at least on any reasonable budget).

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

More dialogue choices maybe, but only if they continue with a voiced protagonist. I found it a truly invaluable tool for connecting with my character.

While I disagree strongly with this PoV, I understand and sympathize with it.  It is easier to connect to a voiced protagonist but only if that voice matches (at least approximately) what the player wants/expects.  The problem with the voiced protagonist is that it puts the entire rest of the game into an unacceptable straightjacket when it comes to player choice in protagonists because unlike visual facial effects, you simply can't have dozens of different voice actors for the same character with any kind of reasonable budget.

-Polaris

A voiced protagonist is somewhat riskier in that regard, but I believe it's an acceptable one. A silent one is effectively taking no answer to leave everyone mildly dissatisfied instead of some people possibly being more dissatisfied, and I don't believe that's worth it. I don't even have to have the voice match what I want per se, just having something that makes my character feel like a person instead of an elf-shaped camera I'm driving around.

[Pwnsaur]

Voiced or not ( I am willing to compromise either way) we need to ditch the Nice/Sarcastic/Dick simplification. It took out all thought and complexity and simply became an instant metagame where you chose the symbol that represented your chosen archetype. I didn't even have to read what they said because I knew it was Nice on top, funny in the middle and jerk-off on the bottom. DA:O was incredibly deep in this regard and you really had to think about your responses and how they may be received.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

More dialogue choices maybe, but only if they continue with a voiced protagonist. I found it a truly invaluable tool for connecting with my character.

I have no problem with a voiced protagonist (As long as I like the voice). I just don't like gow linear the conversations felt in Dragon Age 2- we usually only got 3 choices which all led to the same place in the end. The paraphrasing can also make Hawke word things in a way I don't like. The problem is that part of the reason for these is the voiced protagonist

Modifié par EJ107, 20 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Voiced or not ( I am willing to compromise either way) we need to ditch the Nice/Sarcastic/Dick simplification. It took out all thought and complexity and simply became an instant metagame where you chose the symbol that represented your chosen archetype. I didn't even have to read what they said because I knew it was Nice on top, funny in the middle and jerk-off on the bottom. DA:O was incredibly deep in this regard and you really had to think about your responses and how they may be received.

So you'd prefer to have to puzzle out what your character means to say, in such a way that while your character knows it, you don't? That can lead to some major hassles.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

A voiced protagonist is somewhat riskier in that regard, but I believe it's an acceptable one. A silent one is effectively taking no answer to leave everyone mildly dissatisfied instead of some people possibly being more dissatisfied, and I don't believe that's worth it. I don't even have to have the voice match what I want per se, just having something that makes my character feel like a person instead of an elf-shaped camera I'm driving around.

Again, I get where you are coming from, but I don't think it's worth the cost of having one (and only one) basic template for each gender (and likely a single race as well).  I think the inherent restrictions outweigh the benefits, but I certainly can see the draw.

-Polaris

[Gemini1179]

Persephone wrote...

If it was, I am damn happy they grabbed my cash. BTW, do try Legacy once you have saved the galaxy again. (Just use old saves) It's worth it.

I'm sure I will at some point. Just needed the comfort food that is the ME universe for a while. It's odd because despite the plot issues and RPG issues I have with ME2, I still really enjoy playing it as opposed to the way I feel about DA2. DA2 always feels like a marathon and each act is simply a checkpoint along the way. Doesn't mean I hate everything about DA2.

DA2 Likes:
- Sue me, I never used traps in DAO and it's not the combat that draws me to a game, it's the world. Mage was fun. I always hated in DAO how my character would start attacking, then stop and walk through the enemy and do nothing.

- UI was clear and concise. Skill trees, while dumbed down, worked well enough.

- Enjoyed the FemHawke voice work. Male Hawke sounded like he was wearing uncomfortable underwear all the time.

- MOST of the companions. LOVED Merrill- romance her every time. Can't not. Didn't care for Anders the I-Never-Shut-Up-About-The-Plight-Of-Mages and Fenris the Angsty. Varric was hilarious and while Isabela would make a great wing-man or dinking buddy, I wouldn't touch her without gloves on. ESPECIALLY after you see her go to Anders for treatment... yikes. Oh, and Bethany the Jailbait. Way to torture us BioWare.

Hmmm... not a whole lot there, is there? I'll add more if I think of things.

DA2 Dislikes:

- The insult that are the "Junk Items". You can't do anything with them and they take up space in your inventory. All you are is a glorified middleman. Junk items are just tiny, and I mean TINY amounts of cash that are hardly worth the effort of carrying them around. At least in DAO, Junk Items came in at various values and were actually used in crafting and missions, etc. It would have been simpler to simply remove them entirely and give you more cash and save us all the time and inventory space.

- Armor and item sets. Seriously, 3?? Just 3 in the whole game? It's just sad. No set bonuses for Blood Dragon Armor, Sir Issac's Armor (which I paid $85 for along with the 15 or so hours of gameplay in DS2- which was good and creepy BTW) or any of the other armor in the game.

- Pigenholed into playing your class one way. No strength-based rogues, or dexterous Warriors.

- Crafting. What crafting? They completely removed all possibility of a money-making mechanic AND THEN only doled out the minimum amounts of coin to keep you dressed.

- Resued locations. Look, it was done to death in Mass Effect, yet it never feels like the slap-in-the-face it does here.

- Buggy.  My god the game was buggy opon release. To the point of extreme frustration, I might add.

- I get what they TRIED to do with the story, but it just failed on so many levels. It's like complaining that you never get to sit down and have a meal in an RPG so they make a sequel and devote massive amounts of time to missions where you plan dinner parties. You were given a list of missions, and when you complete those, you get the next list. Rinse and repeat. I never really felt involved.

- You're constantly denied satisfaction. Oh how I wanted to slap Mother Terese several times. At least give me the option!

- You can't be the sleeze that you could in DAO. That doesn't mean I WANT to play as a sleeze, but at least in DAO you could be anything from a saint to a sinner. Which worked in its own weird way to give your Warden a bit of kinship to Zevran. In DA2, you really can't relate to Isabela cause Hawke is a prude, is not funny and gets "Angry" like Jerry Seinfeld gets "Angry". You mostly just want to laugh at him/her.

- Loot. Oh, so we can't put armor on our companions, and we can't wear armor that is not for our class, BUT specific armor for our class drops in specific quests. HOWEVER, everywhere else, we get tons and tons of crap that we simply can't use for the entire playthrough.

- The extreme effort to have the character's NOT say exactly what is on the dialogue wheel. If the answer needs to be "yes", and the dialogue choice is "Yes", you can simply have the character say "Sure" instead of "I think perhaps it would be wise if I were to agree with you." Seriously, check out some of what is written on the dialogue wheel and compare it to what is actually said and you'll find very little corelation. They could have simply made the dialogue wheel give the options Agree/Disagree/Humor/Romance/Peaceful/Forceful and it would have done the same thing. The nice thing about DAO is that when the line said "Is there Griffons?" Wynne responded as if that's EXACTLY what you said. It was fun.

- I don't care if there are gay/lesbian options. In fact, I encourage them. I think freedom of choice is a great thing. There is nothing that says what I choose has to be what someone else chooses and that is always good. But my god, why can't I tell Anders I'm not interested without him getting all pissy?

- Conversation 'Missions'. This was hit on the head in the video reviews. You know, occasionally I just like to shoot the perverbial "poop" with my companions from time to time and shouldn't need to be prompted. In ME2, I often go to Kelly and ask her if there is anything I should know, even though I know what she is going to say simply because that interaction gives me a connection to the world.

- The Ending. Did not enjoy it. Did not feel satisfied at the end of the game. That is my true measuring stick for a game. As crazy as the ending to ME2 was, I felt satisfied and excited about ME3. Except for Arrival which did for the ME series what Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen did for the Transformers series- rendered it all moot. Seriously, what was Soverign's problem when all he had to do was wait 2 years for the rest of his buddies to show up? WHAT WAS IT ALL FOR?? WHY DOESN'T SHEPARD HAVE SOME KIND OF AUDIO/VIDEO RECORDER ATTACHED TO HER ARMOR???

Crap, going off on a ME tangent here. I'll stop now.

[Persephone]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Voiced or not ( I am willing to compromise either way) we need to ditch the Nice/Sarcastic/Dick simplification. It took out all thought and complexity and simply became an instant metagame where you chose the symbol that represented your chosen archetype. I didn't even have to read what they said because I knew it was Nice on top, funny in the middle and jerk-off on the bottom. DA:O was incredibly deep in this regard and you really had to think about your responses and how they may be received.

I am kinda torn there.

I loved building a personality (And seeing that my mainly diplomatic gal couldn't successfully threaten someone was neat) and never once did I hit an option just for the archetype.

I will say though that improvements are necessary. In DAO you had several responses, most of which leading to the exact same answer by the NPC (Companions received more attention there), while differences were minimal. My Livia Aeducan wanted to bang her head against several walls when no matter what she said, people remained entirely unfazed by her plight/threats/sarcasm. DAII offered more varied reactions, yet sacrificed a lot for over the top hilarity/drama. (Which I enjoy too, to a point) I would like a bit more...shall we say...consistency. 

*Hopes this makes sense....has a headache, so it may not*

[DarkDragon777]

I actually loved that video.

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Pwnsaur wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Yes, he may have overused swearing, and may have turned his arguments into a rant, but that does not change the fact that he has many valid points.

Agreed. I think what makes a lot of fans unhappy is the air of ignorance that BioWare is giving off in regards to fans complaints. Yes, an apology may not be necessary. But an acknowledgement that DA2 isn't the huge step forward they continue to say it is would be nice. Otherwise, the smug attitude of BioWare up to this point alludes to the continuation of poor design elements. The majority of gamers don't want less RPG elements, less dialogue choices, and more press X for awesome. Some do, sure... but I think that DA2 has proved that many more prefer the deeper and more robust experience that Origins had to offer.

This I agree with as well.  There was a lot of stuff in DAO that was changed that wasn't in fact broken but BW (based on some of the interviews I've read) would rather crawl over broken glass than admit this and restore some of these prior elements (like silent antagonist or at least drop the dialog wheel).

-Polaris

I agree completely. They don't need to apologise for the game, but I don't see why they are insisting on clinging on to so many of the changes, and claiming that they are "a step forward" when the truth is that they were unnecessary and generally unpopular.

[Pwnsaur]

Xilizhra wrote...
So you'd prefer to have to puzzle out what your character means to say, in such a way that while your character knows it, you don't? That can lead to some major hassles.

What a very perverse and unexpected misunderstanding. No, I don't want to 'puzzle out' what my character says. I want to have the ability to articulate more discernibly than NICE/FUNNY/DICK. In real life there are complex questions and equally complex answers. Very few things boil down to "Should I make a joke or tell them to **** off?" And how in the hell did you get that I wanted to choose what my character says but not know what it is myself? My god.. this is starting to get on my nerves.. do people even read anymore?

I said how it is RECEIVED! You never know how something you say is going to be received, so you choose your words carefully, no? If you boil everything down to three different icons, you know that if you make a joke they'll laugh, be nice they like you and be a dick get upset. It takes out the communication in communicating and it becomes a game where you are essentially interacting with yourself, as you are basically choosing their response to what you say. Please don't misunderstand again, it's getting quite tiresome typing out such long explanations to very rudimentary concepts.

[Persephone]

Gemini1179 wrote...

- I don't care if there are gay/lesbian options. In fact, I encourage them. I think freedom of choice is a great thing. There is nothing that says what I choose has to be what someone else chooses and that is always good. But my god, why can't I tell Anders I'm not interested without him getting all pissy?

Sorry if I focus on this, but this is where I disagree with you the most. If someone I have feelings for shoots me down, I'll be very upset too. Given Anders' obsessive nature, it's perfectly within his character to be deeply hurt. Rejection ain't fun, esp. if you are in love with the guy/gal shooting you down.

[KingDan97]

Wow... That "review" was utter garbage. Whatever you think of Dragon Age 2, this was a pissy little kid who begged his parents to take him to Hot Topic after learning that Yahtzee got tons of views, made loads of cash and got all the ladies because he critically reviews video games. He clearly thought that more curses makes everything better and that a metal soundtrack will compliment everything.

Even the points I agreed on I had to disagree with because of the downright moronic method he used to present it. He was mad, he probably still is mad and it sinks a hell of a lot deeper than just Dragon Age 2.

A review should first and foremost be about THE GAME you are reviewing. He spent half that video drivelling on about how other reviewers were being paid to do what they do and how Mike Laidlaw was promoting a game before launch as opposed to tearing it a new one. He noted a minimap as a problem because one bad game had it. He used hyperbole out the goddamn ying yang and he felt the need to throw an F bomb in every few words.

[Pwnsaur]

Filament wrote...

Maybe that's how you played it. I chose my dialog options in much the same way I did in DAO.

Regardless of 'how' you played it, putting extra thought into the responses was completely unnecessary. You chose to ignore the icons and play it as though it were DA:O. I propose we drop the pretense and just bring back the mechanics that you are emulating.