49 réponses à ce sujet

[legion999]

To build it wouldn't they have to travel through black holes?

Same question for the Omega-4 relay as well.

[Rajorn]

They could have easily just charted a safe passage to the galactic core.

Modifié par Ryanratto, 20 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Rajorn]

Double post.

Modifié par Ryanratto, 20 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[BentOrgy]

1. Says who?

2. They're Reapers, the little buggers that are near God-like and call the void of Dark Space their pad.

I don't think its that big a stretch.

[Rajorn]

this forum is glitchy.

Ignore this post.

Modifié par Ryanratto, 20 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[legion999]

BentOrgy wrote...

1. Says who?

2. They're Reapers, the little buggers that are near God-like and call the void of Dark Space their pad.

I don't think its that big a stretch.

1. Jacob does say the core is full of black holes and exploding suns.

2. True.

[thisisme8]

It makes sense to me that the Collectors built the Collector base before the Reapers took control of them.

Also, it is never said whether or not the Omega-4 relay was or wasn't created before the Reapers gained sentience.

[Sgt Stryker]

You're forgetting about one thing: The Reapers created both the Collectors and the relay network.

As for black holes, I'm sure they just navigated around them.

[KotorEffect3]

A little off topic but I wonder if the reapers will try to either rebuild the collector base (if was destroyed) or retake it (if preserved) then again if preserved that means cerberus has it and if cerberus is indocrtinated then the reapers have it back anyway. Either way I think it would be interesting to return to the galactic core some time in ME 3.

[Dean_the_Young]

legion999 wrote...

To build it wouldn't they have to travel through black holes?

No.

Same question for the Omega-4 relay as well.

Still no.

[d1sciple]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

A little off topic but I wonder if the reapers will try to either rebuild the collector base (if was destroyed) or retake it (if preserved) then again if preserved that means cerberus has it and if cerberus is indocrtinated then the reapers have it back anyway. Either way I think it would be interesting to return to the galactic core some time in ME 3.

i don't think they're interested in the collectors, they're just a tool not their army. they can manipulate any creature they want in real time on the battlefield, the collectors were just there to do a job during the hibernation period. if they have any substance left they'll rebuild it themselves, but i think it actually unlikely the reapers will let them, they'll be harvested like everyone else and a new species chosen as the collectors.
as for cerberus e know from the books the TIM is evil. plain and simple. he's not indoctrinated but he has a knowledge of the reapers that even harbinger doesn't, he's working with them towards some end, personally i think he's trying to screw the reapers overbut like i said in another thread, TIM is the bad guy in this story, not the reapers, they're just a reoccuring event that he's been working towards manipulating and he used shepard to do it.

[mredders91]

it could very well be that when the mass relay to the location where the collector made there base wasnt that close eons ago to galaxic core the galaxic would have grown since the relays where orginal put in place many would have moved in postion or maybe the omega 4 realys were the 1st relays made and the reapers home world was orginal in close location to wear the collector base is again the galaxy would have been much smaller in the beining so would have the galaxtic core but after so many eons its would have grown

Modifié par mredders91, 21 août 2011 - 02:40 .

[wolfennights]

Space magic.

[KevShep]

This is just a wild guess but....
It could be possible that the surviving protheans got off the citedal and created the omega 4 relay.

In order to stay alive they would have to clone themselves( since there is not enough to maintain a population)...however there is one problem...after so many clones you would need tech to compensate. At some point they may have gotten reaper tech(they would most likely have to in order to study it since there tryin to stop the reapers) and they got indoctrinated(collector general). This one prothean(collector general) that seems to maintain some intelligence might be a survivor.

Notice that collector ships and tech including the collector base look different then that of the reapers tech/ships. Its possible that the collector base and ship are not made by the reapers AT ALL, but only now do the reapers use them.

Modifié par KevShep, 22 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[d1sciple]

the collectors built it. they're just tools for the reapers, there's no way the reapers would of built it, that's crazy. you're gonna create a race of slaves to do your dirty work while you go sleep off the last couple hundred years harvesting but first set them up in a nice pad, give them a couple of ships, make some tea, get them a couple of nice chairs, wipe their bums etc. this is a race of genetically modified slaves, specifically designed to serve the reapers. they're not indoctrinated protheans, they're not even prothean anymore, the protheans were just the dna building block the reapers started with. as for the relays that's an unanswered question, we've got a few clues, a few ideas suggesting they might be the product of an older master race but either way it doesn't matter, the reapers own it all now, the galaxy is theirs, their power is almost infinite, they could probably have a dinner party inside of a blackhole while smoking cigarillos and sipping on gin and juice.

[KevShep]

d1sciple wrote...

the collectors built it. they're just tools for the reapers, there's no way the reapers would of built it, that's crazy. you're gonna create a race of slaves to do your dirty work while you go sleep off the last couple hundred years harvesting but first set them up in a nice pad, give them a couple of ships, make some tea, get them a couple of nice chairs, wipe their bums etc. this is a race of genetically modified slaves, specifically designed to serve the reapers. they're not indoctrinated protheans, they're not even prothean anymore, the protheans were just the dna building block the reapers started with. as for the relays that's an unanswered question, we've got a few clues, a few ideas suggesting they might be the product of an older master race but either way it doesn't matter, the reapers own it all now, the galaxy is theirs, their power is almost infinite, they could probably have a dinner party inside of a blackhole while smoking cigarillos and sipping on gin and juice.

First off we dont even know if the reapers are in fact harvesting other races other then humans. They did NOT harvest the protheans...they killed them, and the "slaves"(or indoctrinated ones) were left behind to die(as stated by vigil). If they did not harvest any other race then what would the reapers need with a "slave" race(collectors) in the first place?

I never said that the reapers built it. I said the opposite....the protheans(not the collectors) could have built it. They were in fact on the verge of creating a real one. Maybe the Omega 4 relay is that relay(if one was in fact built).

The collectors are modified yes I know.....but the collector general is not. Since the reapers cant control there subjects 24/7 ( as stated by the books) then it makes since that one of them needs to be indoctrinated. Notice how the general shows a little of intelligence when Harbringer releases control of him. A mindless husk would not notice an explosion....this means that he is not a mindless husk.

If the collectors were made by the reapers then why does there ships look prothean? It does not look anything like what the reapers have.

It looks like that the collectors are NOT of reaper design. The reapers may at some point have taken over them completely now. The collector base may have been a tool for the protheans(the real ones) to have a safe haven from the reapers and help there race survive and also stop the reapers. However it back fired!

[d1sciple]

KevShep wrote...

d1sciple wrote...

the collectors built it. they're just tools for the reapers, there's no way the reapers would of built it, that's crazy. you're gonna create a race of slaves to do your dirty work while you go sleep off the last couple hundred years harvesting but first set them up in a nice pad, give them a couple of ships, make some tea, get them a couple of nice chairs, wipe their bums etc. this is a race of genetically modified slaves, specifically designed to serve the reapers. they're not indoctrinated protheans, they're not even prothean anymore, the protheans were just the dna building block the reapers started with. as for the relays that's an unanswered question, we've got a few clues, a few ideas suggesting they might be the product of an older master race but either way it doesn't matter, the reapers own it all now, the galaxy is theirs, their power is almost infinite, they could probably have a dinner party inside of a blackhole while smoking cigarillos and sipping on gin and juice.

First off we dont even know if the reapers are in fact harvesting other races other then humans. They did NOT harvest the protheans...they killed them, and the "slaves"(or indoctrinated ones) were left behind to die(as stated by vigil). If they did not harvest any other race then what would the reapers need with a "slave" race(collectors) in the first place?

I never said that the reapers built it. I said the opposite....the protheans(not the collectors) could have built it. They were in fact on the verge of creating a real one. Maybe the Omega 4 relay is that relay(if one was in fact built).

The collectors are modified yes I know.....but the collector general is not. Since the reapers cant control there subjects 24/7 ( as stated by the books) then it makes since that one of them needs to be indoctrinated. Notice how the general shows a little of intelligence when Harbringer releases control of him. A mindless husk would not notice an explosion....this means that he is not a mindless husk.

If the collectors were made by the reapers then why does there ships look prothean? It does not look anything like what the reapers have.

It looks like that the collectors are NOT of reaper design. The reapers may at some point have taken over them completely now. The collector base may have been a tool for the protheans(the real ones) to have a safe haven from the reapers and help there race survive and also stop the reapers. However it back fired!

we know that indoctrinated 'slaves' were used by the reapers as vigil says, because the 'reaping' is a hugely long process, hundreds of years even and that they can't be everywhere or get to everything at once. we also know that the collectors share significant dna with the protheans. we know that when seriously indoctrinated a species physicality changes(from the ign interview/demo with the devs they explain that the 'monsters' shep is engaging are indoctrinated slaves and the indoctrination changes them significantly) so it makes sense that the origin of the collectors is as an indoctrinated slave race 'created' by the reapers and left to die when they left. that doesn't mean that they set them up in thier current position, they didn't have to. as i said before they just indoctrinated them(which changes thier dna and physicality) and then over all this time they've evolved into what we're now faced with. what i guess the reapers didn't plan on was the collectors actually surviving by some means we have no idea of and possibly evolving themselves into their current state. taken that nothing is said about any other races exsisting with the protheans it's a safe assumption the collectors origin is prothean so it makes sense that thier tech is sub-prothean. after 50,000 years it also makes sense to assume that the indoctrinating has changed somewhat and it's possible that it has evolved into a hive-like system where the 'slaves' are now enslaved to their own leader in the absense of the reapers. as for what happens when a reaper turns up we don't really know, it's been so long maybe the indoctrination doesn't work as well anymore, maybe they only need to control the general now, we don't have that process explained to us we just see the results . we don't know why sovereign let them be, maybe they were too important as a perfect slave, but then it was using the geth without having to indoctrinate them, there's still alot of answers to come but as i said before, i stand by the logical explaination that the collectors were originally indoctrinated prothean slaves that have evolved into the thier current form, the collectors, over the last 50,000, that the reapers didn't have to interfere with that process except to give them tech and that because of the unkowns we can't really guess as to wht next for them. allies perhaps? wouldn't that be a kick.

[Raven4030]

KevShep: your arguments ignore 90% of what is presented in the game. I realize characters aren't supposed to be omniscient or always right but I would not be surprised if you claimed Lee Harvey Oswald was a Reaper agent meant to delay humanity's ascension to being a space-faring species because they knew we would be a significant military threat.

D1sciple: I don't know what paragraphs ever did to you or your family but I don't think they could have done anything for you to hate them so much.

[KevShep]

d1sciple wrote...



we know that indoctrinated 'slaves' were used by the reapers as vigil says, because the 'reaping' is a hugely long process, hundreds of years even and that they can't be everywhere or get to everything at once. we also know that the collectors share significant dna with the protheans. we know that when seriously indoctrinated a species physicality changes(from the ign interview/demo with the devs they explain that the 'monsters' shep is engaging are indoctrinated slaves and the indoctrination changes them significantly) so it makes sense that the origin of the collectors is as an indoctrinated slave race 'created' by the reapers and left to die when they left. that doesn't mean that they set them up in thier current position, they didn't have to. as i said before they just indoctrinated them(which changes thier dna and physicality) and then over all this time they've evolved into what we're now faced with.

 You have to remember that an indoctrinated slave must be "watched" by the reapers. If the reapers had all of the collectors indoctrinated then that would really strain there ability. This way only one is indoctrinated. The others are basicly mindless husks controled (through implants) by the collector general. On top of that we dont know if the reapers harvested other races........It does NOT say that they do(the fact that they do is only a theory at this point).  Vigil mentions that they(reapers) wipe them out!     The protheans were "repurposed" by the reapers......this does not mean that the collectors were of the reapers main plan(or any plan). They saw a need for them and repurposed them to harvest JUST humans.

d1sciple wrote...

what i guess the reapers didn't plan on was the collectors actually surviving by some means we have no idea of and possibly evolving themselves into their current state. taken that nothing is said about any other races exsisting with the protheans it's a safe assumption the collectors origin is prothean so it makes sense that thier tech is sub-prothean. after 50,000 years it also makes sense to assume that the indoctrinating has changed somewhat and it's possible that it has evolved into a hive-like system where the 'slaves' are now enslaved to their own leader in the absense of the reapers. as for what happens when a reaper turns up we don't really know, it's been so long maybe the indoctrination doesn't work as well anymore, maybe they only need to control the general now, we don't have that process explained to us we just see the results . we don't know why sovereign let them be, maybe they were too important as a perfect slave, but then it was using the geth without having to indoctrinate them, there's still alot of answers to come but as i said before, i stand by the logical explaination that the collectors were originally indoctrinated prothean slaves that have evolved into the thier current form, the collectors, over the last 50,000, that the reapers didn't have to interfere with that process except to give them tech and that because of the unkowns we can't really guess as to wht next for them. allies perhaps? wouldn't that be a kick.

Like I said....if you have that many indoctrinated slaves then during the times when they are not under control would be a complete desaster. Thats why they only need one. Remember also that husks and indoctrinated subjects are NOT the same thing.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...

KevShep: your arguments ignore 90% of what is presented in the game. I realize characters aren't supposed to be omniscient or always right but I would not be surprised if you claimed Lee Harvey Oswald was a Reaper agent meant to delay humanity's ascension to being a space-faring species because they knew we would be a significant military threat.

D1sciple: I don't know what paragraphs ever did to you or your family but I don't think they could have done anything for you to hate them so much.

You forget that 90% of the game is taken at face value by everyone. Taking the game at face value is dumb... why?...because there are spoilers!  The only way you COULD know that I ignore 90% of the game is to assume that you already know the spoilers of ME3.

Its obvious that the ME3 spoilers are going to revolve around ME1/ME2. If this is the case then the game ....CANT... be taken at face value. There are things that are left out in order to keep the spoilers safe.

90% of this theory IS present in the game as I have mentioned in the other post. If you dont understand then tell me what this 90% of game that I am apparently missing is! other wise dont just shoot me down without and explanation. 

Modifié par KevShep, 23 août 2011 - 04:58 .

[008Zulu]

Its likely that the Collectors aren't entirely made up of a single species, such as the Prothians. Here is the logic, so bear with me...

The station is the Collector/Reaper base where Reaper reproduction is facilitated, BUT, the Prothians were the species harvested in the last cycle, SO, who built the thousand plus Reapers already flying around? ANSWER! The Collectors are a hodge-podged mixture of several species. The Collector genetic code had been seriously tooled around with, so much so that the Prothian DNA was barely recognizable. The Reapers take the species who cannot be made in to a Reaper and add their genetic code to the Collector mix, thus keeping the species (more or somewhat significantly less) alive.

Already know some of you might say "But EDI analyzed the Collector's genetic code, so you are wrong about this." Well, see, here's the thing, if the Prothians are the (only) Collectors, then who built the Reapers in the previous cycles?

[d1sciple]

i speed read, paragraphs slow everything down. as for the collectors, me and you(kev) are pretty much saying the same thing man, just differently. i don't think the reapers really care about anything, certainly not enough to 'create' an entire slave race for themselves, what i'm saying is the collectors are the by product of the tools(indoctrinated slaves) the reapers used last time around. the reapers indoctrinate and make husks out of everything they come near, they destroy all organic life, but as we see with the keepers even a specifically genetically engineered indoctrinated race can evolve itself into something new, which is possibly where the collectors now stand. a bunch of ex-indoctrinated slaves, trying to survive in the wake of the reapers last cycle, possibly working in a hive-like manner, possibly using genetic engineering to keep themselves alive etc. the human harvesting question hasn't been answered yet, my guess is it ties in with the whole beings of light and the theory that the reapers may not even be the first and i'm not sure the main plan is to build new, uh, reapers every time. i think they're diminishing, a dying race whose plan is to manipulate a species into a specific position that they can use to move on to the next step before they're dead, and possibly this time they've succeeded with humans. it's like they're looking for something. in any case it's all just speculation but when i look at it all as logically as i can i come to the conclusion that sovereign lied, everything he said has to be discounted, plain and simple. TIM is the real bad guy and i'd go so far as to say he actually knows the origin of the reapers. the collectors are the result of the reapers, they share dna with the protheans which means that either they were originally prothean and have either evolved or been genetically manipulated(by themselves or the reapers) or they are a species that needs to take on new dna to survive. the former is easier to believe as if they are a race that takes on other races dna then they couldn't have prothean dna because they were wiped from the universe, or if they were around before the reaping then they'd be wiped from the galaxy themselves. as for them having prothean tech and mordin saying they haven't evolved into what they are but made then that backs up the idea of them being ex-indoctrinated i think. edi and vigil are just sharing opinions and can't be 100% though they come to similar logical conclusions. and most of all i will probably have gone completely crazy by the time ME3 hits.

[KevShep]

d1sciple wrote...

 and most of all i will probably have gone completely crazy by the time ME3 hits.

Iam right there with you on this one though lol.


However ..."everything"... that we know about the collectors comes from EDI. EDI mentions that she has no idea of what is really going on because she does not have the intel to know for sure. The ..."only"... reason that a game would do this is if the reason in question is a spoiler for the next game....so in this case EDI makes it clear that she is "guessing" and does not know for sure!    "IF" what she says is a fact then the devs would have a solid reason in the game to make that assumption because there would be....."intel".....that gives them the soild answer. In this case its left wide open!!!!!!!!!!!!  

This is what is called a miss leading story arc!!!!!!!!! How you find out if that is the case is easy..............a game based on evidence suddenly uses a guess for an anwser(hint hint...hidden spoiler).

Notice this too.....That this is no evidence at all that says that the reapers harvest in there cycles of extinctions. Dont believe me?....go ahead and look for it.  In fact it says the opposite.  Why would you harvest a race to extinction?????????? Also If you need a slave race then you would just use the race at the current cycle(indocrinated). Remember that there is a reason why the reapers leave the indoctrinated slaves to die.

Lets look at what we know IS a fact:
1. All races of times past are extinct.
2.Vigil says nothing of harvesting the protheans themselves, only that they were completely destoryed.
3.Vigil also says that they were on the verge of creating a relay(we know this is true because we used it) this means that the possiblity remains that they could have built another one(omega 4). however this is not a fact yet.
4.Collectors are modified for an unknown reason.
5. The collectors ships/base/tech look different then that of the reapers designs. Even the Omega 4 relay looks different then ALL other relays......WHY?
6.The reapers motives are still an unknown. (harvesting other races throughout time is only a theory... no evidence!)
7.reapers are real.
8.The reapers are ONLY interested in humans.(its possible that the protheans were "repurposed" to harvest us...in other words that was not the original plan). Notice also that the pods that the collectors have only fit a certain kind of being. this suggests that these pods are made afterwards meaning that the collectors may have been a by product of something that the reapers used on hand and not planned long ago.This means that the collectors were recent.  Like I said....if you need to use a slave race then why not use the race at the present time?.......Is this not why they use indoctrinated subjects in that current cycle?
9.The reapers are not interested in other races of our galaxy.....why?
10. They are looking for something specific with organics.
11. They are controling evolution.

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

d1sciple wrote...

 and most of all i will probably have gone completely crazy by the time ME3 hits.

Iam right there with you on this one though lol.


However ..."everything"... that we know about the collectors comes from EDI. EDI mentions that she has no idea of what is really going on because she does not have the intel to know for sure. The ..."only"... reason that a game would do this is if the reason in question is a spoiler for the next game....so in this case EDI makes it clear that she is "guessing" and does not know for sure!    "IF" what she says is a fact then the devs would have a solid reason in the game to make that assumption because there would be....."intel".....that gives them the soild answer. In this case its left wide open!!!!!!!!!!!!  

This is what is called a miss leading story arc!!!!!!!!! How you find out if that is the case is easy..............a game based on evidence suddenly uses a guess for an anwser(hint hint...hidden spoiler).

Notice this too.....That this is no evidence at all that says that the reapers harvest in there cycles of extinctions. Dont believe me?....go ahead and look for it.  In fact it says the opposite.  Why would you harvest a race to extinction?????????? Also If you need a slave race then you would just use the race at the current cycle(indocrinated). Remember that there is a reason why the reapers leave the indoctrinated slaves to die.

Lets look at what we know IS a fact:
1. All races of times past are extinct.
2.Vigil says nothing of harvesting the protheans themselves, only that they were completely destoryed.
3.Vigil also says that they were on the verge of creating a relay(we know this is true because we used it) this means that the possiblity remains that they could have built another one(omega 4). however this is not a fact yet.
4.Collectors are modified for an unknown reason.
5. The collectors ships/base/tech look different then that of the reapers designs. Even the Omega 4 relay looks different then ALL other relays......WHY?
6.The reapers motives are still an unknown. (harvesting other races throughout time is only a theory... no evidence!)
7.reapers are real.
8.The reapers are ONLY interested in humans.(its possible that the protheans were "repurposed" to harvest us...in other words that was not the original plan). Notice also that the pods that the collectors have only fit a certain kind of being. this suggests that these pods are made afterwards meaning that the collectors may have been a by product of something that the reapers used on hand and not planned long ago.This means that the collectors were recent.  Like I said....if you need to use a slave race then why not use the race at the present time?.......Is this not why they use indoctrinated subjects in that current cycle?
9.The reapers are not interested in other races of our galaxy.....why?
10. They are looking for something specific with organics.
11. They are controling evolution.

Dear God that's a lot of exclamation points and question marks.

But anyway, some of your "Facts" bothered me, not all, but some;

1. That we're aware of, Bioware can still pull a freak U-turn if they wanted to. Especially when we have an open door like a DLC called "The Prothean."
2. Yet we have Harbinger saying things like "We are your genetic destiny." and the Human Reaper, from which we can easily speculate that the Reapers have probably used this "Reaperfication" tactic before, and EDI's theory that they HAD tried to make a Prothean Reaper before, but it failed for unforseen reasons. Not solid, but certainly throws your "Fact" into question.
3. Doubtful, considering the Omega 4 is a full scale relay in the middle of space, not housed on an isolated planet. You really think they would have had the time or secrecy to make it? Combine that with Vigil clearly saying they built a  "Small scale version of a mass realy." Nothing about buiding a full scale one.
4. They were made for a very clear reason; to compensate for their growing ineptitude due to prolonged indoctrination, Mordin theorizes this quite plainly and it makes perfect sense.
5. Unclear, but it could be a number of things.
6. There's plenty of evidence, for some, see point number two.
7. No kidding.
8. Its entirely possible that the Reapers discovered primitve man on earth during their last cycle, and repurposed the Protheans so that they  could eventually harvest us. They saw something they liked, and made  plans to acquire it when it was ready, which is probably what they always do, but for some reason, their plans for the Protheans fell through. And as for your "Slave race of the current era" isn't that what they did to the Protheans? Or take ME1's era, with the Geth?
9. Harbinger clearly tells us why during his combat dialouge, snoop around the wiki for it. Thing like the quarian's immune systems, krogan genophage, turians being too "Primitive."
10. Yeah, its called Reaper Babies.
11. Obviously, considering that's why they built the Citadel and the Relays.

Don't say things are fact until proven so.

And to Zulu: I suppose its possible that the Reapers split the race they're going to use as Reaper goo into two divisions; one part of the race is assimiliated into the Reaper, and the others are repurposed to build said reaper.
So when they were combing the galaxy for the Protheans, they first indoctrinated some for the slaves to build the Prothean Reaper, then tried (In vain apparantly) to use the rest for reproduction.

Now as to why they kept the Collectors aftwards? No idea, perhaps after their failure to conjure up a Prothean Reaper, they got nervous and decided to keep what they knew they could rely on around. Just incase. Your idea is compelling none the less.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 23 août 2011 - 06:49 .