49 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

Dear God that's a lot of exclamation points and question marks.

But anyway, some of your "Facts" bothered me, not all, but some;

1. That we're aware of, Bioware can still pull a freak U-turn if they wanted to. Especially when we have an open door like a DLC called "The Prothean."
2. Yet we have Harbinger saying things like "We are your genetic destiny." and the Human Reaper, from which we can easily speculate that the Reapers have probably used this "Reaperfication" tactic before, and EDI's theory that they HAD tried to make a Prothean Reaper before, but it failed for unforseen reasons. Not solid, but certainly throws your "Fact" into question.
3. Doubtful, considering the Omega 4 is a full scale relay in the middle of space, not housed on an isolated planet. You really think they would have had the time or secrecy to make it? Combine that with Vigil clearly saying they built a  "Small scale version of a mass realy." Nothing about buiding a full scale one.
4. They were made for a very clear reason; to compensate for their growing ineptitude due to prolonged indoctrination, Mordin theorizes this quite plainly and it makes perfect sense.
5. Unclear, but it could be a number of things.
6. There's plenty of evidence, for some, see point number two.
7. No kidding.
8. Its entirely possible that the Reapers discovered primitve man on earth during their last cycle, and repurposed the Protheans so that they  could eventually harvest us. They saw something they liked, and made  plans to acquire it when it was ready, which is probably what they always do, but for some reason, their plans for the Protheans fell through. And as for your "Slave race of the current era" isn't that what they did to the Protheans? Or take ME1's era, with the Geth?
9. Harbinger clearly tells us why during his combat dialouge, snoop around the wiki for it. Thing like the quarian's immune systems, krogan genophage, turians being too "Primitive."
10. Yeah, its called Reaper Babies.
11. Obviously, considering that's why they built the Citadel and the Relays.

Don't say things are fact until proven so.

I first just what to note what you said about "facts untill proven so" thing.....What I mentioned is facts what you mentioned is still questionable.

2. EDI says that she does not know for sure. This means there is ether more to it or it is somthing else completely(such as a spoiler). Never in a game is a major plot twist made correct through a lucky guess. Remember that we still dont know the reason or nature of the collectors.
3. What I ment by this is that there were survivors of the protheans (12 of them) that Vigil does not know what happend to them. My guess is that they found a way off the citadel(after the reaper invasion) and built a relay(omega 4). They then build a safe haven to start a new(however it goes really wrong). This explains why there ships and tech are prothean and not a combination of all races tech. Then they would have to clone themselves (because 12 is not enough to survive). Remember that the 12 protheans were trying "everything" they could to stop the invasion. By trying to survive away from the watchfull eye of the reapers they might be able to acutally stop them the next time. Iam thinking that some where along the line they studied reaper tech and fu*ked themselves over. Now the reapers control them.
4. Yes the reapers have to improvise, what does that tell you? The collectors were not planned! They are the protheans trying to survive. This is EXACTLY why you only use the current race if your going to use slaves!
6. Wrong. it is only speculation BASED on what they know right NOW.
10. For number 10 refer to my number 6 ^.

[Raven4030]

OK, I can demonstrate the Collector base and Collector ships are not Prothean constructs:

-Remember Therum? Remember how it looked like a tower, like something you'd find on the Citadel or on a homeworld? Remember how it didn't look anything like an insect hive?
-Remember the Collector ship and base? Remember how closely they resembled insect hives?

Your theory would require that the prothean scientists, who weren't architects, spontaneously decided that every other architect in their history is wrong and invented their own style and did something that was impossible even for them within the span of a single lifetime.

I take back what I said to you earlier, my example of Lee Harvey Oswald being a Reaper agent assigned to delay the space program by assassinating JFK and thus ensuring we would not nearly be the military threat that we could have been actually makes more sense than your ramblings.

Modifié par Raven4030, 23 août 2011 - 07:43 .

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...

OK, I can demonstrate the Collector base and Collector ships are not Prothean constructs:

-Remember Therum? Remember how it looked like a tower, like something you'd find on the Citadel or on a homeworld? Remember how it didn't look anything like an insect hive?
-Remember the Collector ship and base? Remember how closely they resembled insect hives?

Your theory would require that the prothean scientists, who weren't architects, spontaneously decided that every other architect in their history is wrong and invented their own style and did something that was impossible even for them within the span of a single lifetime.

I take back what I said to you earlier, my example of Lee Harvey Oswald being a Reaper agent assigned to delay the space program by assassinating JFK and thus ensuring we would not nearly be the military threat that we could have been actually makes more sense than your ramblings.

 The design of the the protheans looks like blocky tan concrete structures. This is also the design that is found at the collector ship/base. Its just that feros/Ilos/Therum dont have the growths on them that the collector ship/base does.

Remember that the protheans were in fact hive like.....look at the way they communicate. If you look closely at pics of both Ilos and a collector ship alot of the structures/angles/artistic disign and material look the same.Keep in mind to that there are some difference in Ilos and feros as well but the just of them all have alot of similarities. Also keep in mind that the reapers have done things to them as well.  However it is still hard to tell because Ilos has been vaccant for some time the collector base has not.  to the untrained eye it looks different untill you start to see the things that are there in all the pics. Its obvious that there are going to be things that are different when one has been there for a while and another location has been empty for a long time. Ilos,therum,fero and the collector base/ship all have similarities that are noticeable.  but you have to remember that these are in different systems as well. Which means that some of the design is going to be different to some degree. EDI mentions that the collectors come from a specific system however I will have to play it again to get the name of the cluster.

There are alot of growths on the collector base....this means that the old buildings will not have any growths other then trees and the like.  Since the growths would not be there in a ruin then you have to look at the collector base/ship in the areas that dont have it. Just like in Feros (prime example) most of the structure is bare/plain concrete walls/floors. This is also what is in the collectors design.

BTW I never said that the protheans did it in a single life time. They would have to clone themselves just like what the collectors are doing now.

 Edited- Therum is another good example. Your focusing too much on the growths in the collector ship/base. If you look at the interior of Therum it has a striking resemblance to the acuall collector ship exterior. Like I said take away the growths and look at whats left. Your also forgeting that the protheans ARE a hive race. The fact that they comunicate through thought(mind to mind) is the prime clue that they are. In Mass Effect wiki (19th paragaph) it states that it is unknown as to if the collectors were under the control of the reapers originaly.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 août 2011 - 09:57 .

[Raven4030]

As far as architectural differences, I'm focusing on the growths because these growths weren't just decoration they slathered over the ship. They actually bound the ship together and were as vital to the structure of the ship as the mechanical parts. If they did have growths in all their buildings that died off, then the buildings would have collapsed. However, even if we discount them, I think you're grasping at straws in the hopes of 'winning'.

OK, let me spell out EXACTLY what you're saying happened, because this is how it would have had to have happened if the Collectors descended from the scientists and not from Prothean husks:

1) After the Prothean scientists arrived at the Citadel and made the modifications, they would have had to have discovered a cache of food the Reapers missed, or a ship they left sitting around just because. Otherwise, the scientists would have somehow had to cobble together a working star-ship with FTL abilities that could send the proper signals to activate a mass relay from whatever they could pry off the Citadel. And, barring the discovery of that cache of food and water the reapers somehow missed, would have had to have done so before they were rendered non-functional by starvation/dehydration.

2) After building their ship from whatever parts they could pry off the Citadel, they would have had to have found a garden world. Given that any star charts they would have had available would be centuries old, they would have to manually figure out where these garden type worlds are, and not only hope their calculations are accurate (and that they don't slam into a gas giant or something en route), they would have had have hoped this world wasn't destroyed by the Reapers or some other calamity.

3) Assuming they actually manage to find this garden type world without slamming into another planet at terminal velocity using their predictive models from centuries old star charts (models that, if slightly off, again, results in death or at the very least shooting off blindly into interstellar space), all before succumbing to starvation/dehydration, they would have to locate and secure potable water and food sources. Even with a cache of food the reapers and keepers all somehow missed sitting on the Citadel, they would still need to find this world to support a 'cloned generation'.

4) After doing all of that, then they would have to set out cloning themselves. Requiring a group of engineers and physicists (not architects or biologists mind you) to build the tools they need to build the tools to build the tools to build the facility that would allow them to create viable clones of themselves, while not knowing enough about biology themselves or the requirements to do something as complex as cloning a living organism, and finding complete enough records on cloning procedures to teach themselves. Keep in mind these are old men and women by now given how much time was spent researching how to alter the citadel in the first place and how long it'd take to figure out everything they needed let alone build it all.

5) Now, after doing all of this highly improbable stuff requiring skillsets they probably don't have, rather than trying to eek out an existence they decide 'hey, let's build a relay that connects to the galactic core because... why not? It'll be fun!'

6) After somehow learning how to build a full size relay, a feat requiring centuries of research since it took them that long just to build the conduit, and then somehow getting to the galactic core... you know what, I'm going to stop there. If I haven't demonstrated how ludicrous your theory is by now nothing will.

Modifié par Raven4030, 23 août 2011 - 09:57 .

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...

As far as architectural differences, I'm focusing on the growths because these growths weren't just decoration they slathered over the ship. They actually bound the ship together and were as vital to the structure of the ship as the mechanical parts. If they did have growths in all their buildings that died off, then the buildings would have collapsed. However, even if we discount them, I think you're grasping at straws in the hopes of 'winning'.

.

The point of the architectural differences can go both ways at this point just enough that you cant rule anything out.

Now about your explanation to my theory..........

The reason it does not make sense to you is cause your trying to explaine how they got off the citadel with on evidence what so ever to go off of! Remember that we dont know ANYTHING about what was left behind for the 12 protheans or how and the fact that your trying to will make even a true story seem stupid.

Iam focusing on what we can see and from what evidence that we do have. Mainly because a theory on top of a theory is just dumb and is a good way to mess one up. so lets just back it up and focus on what we do know for the time being.

I dont know how they got off the citedal but it looks to be the case givin the evidence that we do have(and its not much I know). I have concluded that the collectors were not of the reapers original plan. A clue to this is the fact that they have to keep up grading there slaves. Realisticlly the reapers would just use the current race to use as slaves. As I have mentioned before about the designs of both it would "seem" that it does fit with the concept of the collectors being an unfor seen problem(much like what the protheans did to them). We know too that if the 12 found a way to further hinder the reapers plan then dont you think that they would take it? Why does the Omega 4 relay look different? the Alpha relay was reaper and it looked the same so why not the o4 relay? This points to the possiblity that it was prothean. 

Perhaps they use the Keeper cloning device since they altered the keepers signal(keepers have cloning ability in the station). If they found a way to clone themselves(which apparently might not be that hard for them) then they could do more damage and acually stand a chance. Remember that the protheans had full control of the citadel.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 août 2011 - 10:31 .

[Raven4030]

D'awww... you're cute when you writhe and babble incoherently.

[KevShep]

Sorry i forgot to add that the citadel also produces protein....PROTEIN! Cloning/protine/and a knowlege of the keepers and the citadel= possible way off the station. However Iam just speculating.

[expanding panic]

Why couldnt the collectors build the collect base.

[KevShep]

expanding panic wrote...

Why couldnt the collectors build the collect base.

Its because it does not make sense.The evidence points to the opposite.

1.The collectors design and tech dont look anything like what the reapers have.
2.The Omega 4 relay does not look like any other relay, even the Alpha relay looks like the other relays...all but the the Omega relay.
3.Its possible that the 12 prothean scientist survived and made it off the citadel.
4.Since the Omega 4 relay looks different then its possible that the surviving protheans built a real relay this time. In this relay they can keep there existance hidden from the watchfull eye of the reapers. however it does not go to plan. This is a plan by the protheans to survive and keep there knowlege of the reapers so that in the next cycle they can stop them for good. In order to do this they would have to study reaper tech and I think that is what fu*ked them. Now the reapers control them.
5.The reapers have to keep upgrading the collectors. This is a BIG clue that the collectors were a an unforeseen problem for the reapers. One that needed to be dealt with so instead of killing them they indoctrinate them in order to know there secrets. Realistically the reapers would just use the race at the current cycle as slaves to prevent the problem of having to upgrade them.
6.Mass Effect Wiki states for some reason that "it is unknown if the collectors were under control of the reapers originaly". Why would it mention this?
7. Why is it way out there? Its in the core of the galaxy!
8.Keeping a race of slaves for a period of 50k is just plain stupid. Really....there is no need! IT makes a hell of a lot more sense to use a current race as slaves.......it cuts back on so much crazy!

Modifié par KevShep, 24 août 2011 - 12:04 .

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Dear God that's a lot of exclamation points and question marks.

But anyway, some of your "Facts" bothered me, not all, but some;

1. That we're aware of, Bioware can still pull a freak U-turn if they wanted to. Especially when we have an open door like a DLC called "The Prothean."
2. Yet we have Harbinger saying things like "We are your genetic destiny." and the Human Reaper, from which we can easily speculate that the Reapers have probably used this "Reaperfication" tactic before, and EDI's theory that they HAD tried to make a Prothean Reaper before, but it failed for unforseen reasons. Not solid, but certainly throws your "Fact" into question.
3. Doubtful, considering the Omega 4 is a full scale relay in the middle of space, not housed on an isolated planet. You really think they would have had the time or secrecy to make it? Combine that with Vigil clearly saying they built a  "Small scale version of a mass realy." Nothing about buiding a full scale one.
4. They were made for a very clear reason; to compensate for their growing ineptitude due to prolonged indoctrination, Mordin theorizes this quite plainly and it makes perfect sense.
5. Unclear, but it could be a number of things.
6. There's plenty of evidence, for some, see point number two.
7. No kidding.
8. Its entirely possible that the Reapers discovered primitve man on earth during their last cycle, and repurposed the Protheans so that they  could eventually harvest us. They saw something they liked, and made  plans to acquire it when it was ready, which is probably what they always do, but for some reason, their plans for the Protheans fell through. And as for your "Slave race of the current era" isn't that what they did to the Protheans? Or take ME1's era, with the Geth?
9. Harbinger clearly tells us why during his combat dialouge, snoop around the wiki for it. Thing like the quarian's immune systems, krogan genophage, turians being too "Primitive."
10. Yeah, its called Reaper Babies.
11. Obviously, considering that's why they built the Citadel and the Relays.

Don't say things are fact until proven so.

I first just what to note what you said about "facts untill proven so" thing.....What I mentioned is facts what you mentioned is still questionable.

2. EDI says that she does not know for sure. This means there is ether more to it or it is somthing else completely(such as a spoiler). Never in a game is a major plot twist made correct through a lucky guess. Remember that we still dont know the reason or nature of the collectors.
3. What I ment by this is that there were survivors of the protheans (12 of them) that Vigil does not know what happend to them. My guess is that they found a way off the citadel(after the reaper invasion) and built a relay(omega 4). They then build a safe haven to start a new(however it goes really wrong). This explains why there ships and tech are prothean and not a combination of all races tech. Then they would have to clone themselves (because 12 is not enough to survive). Remember that the 12 protheans were trying "everything" they could to stop the invasion. By trying to survive away from the watchfull eye of the reapers they might be able to acutally stop them the next time. Iam thinking that some where along the line they studied reaper tech and fu*ked themselves over. Now the reapers control them.
4. Yes the reapers have to improvise, what does that tell you? The collectors were not planned! They are the protheans trying to survive. This is EXACTLY why you only use the current race if your going to use slaves!
6. Wrong. it is only speculation BASED on what they know right NOW.
10. For number 10 refer to my number 6 ^.

2. If you honestly believe that this will be the first time the Reapers actually harvest a species, then you're out of your "mind." And if you're suggesting that they have, but didn't try with the Protheans, than you're even more of your rocker. And if you're implying that no one has guess accurately a plot twist in a game, then your guess work can't be worth much.
3. Built a Relay? With twelve people? Even through cloning that's ridiculous; how'd they gather the resources? The time? The anything they'd require to do so? Not to mention why the hell would they build a relay that shoots off into the galactic core? A seething mass of SUNS and BLACK HOLES. There's no point, not unless you were trying to hide, which the reapers obviously wanted their pet collectors to do. Hence, its FAR more likely that the Reapers had the Collectors build the thing to hide in.
4. Are you suggesting that the surviving Protheans turned themselves into Collectors to "Survive?" What the holy f*ck would they gain from turning themselves into souless, braindead, completely subservient husks? 'Cause that's exactly what the Collectors are. Tools for the reapers, its black and white, clear as crystal.
6. Whether you wan't to see it as evidence, or something that merely conflicts with your warped perception of clearly established, or at the very least, completely logical events, is irrelevant. Its still there, and it still makes more sense than your babble. You're like Zulu with his "Vigil lied to us!" theory.

Except he knows how to write a fun debate, unlike you, who's trolling for attention.

So no, they're not fact, seeing as I, and many others, just
refuted most of them, its speculation, which was my point. I'm not
going to argue any further, considering I never really liked beating my head against a brick wall until it bleeds. Good luck Raven.

Cheers.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 24 août 2011 - 12:16 .

[d1sciple]

i still stand by my points, but think about this; for collectors to have prothean dna they must of either been around during the last 'reaping' and survived for some reason or protheans survived the last reaping in some form for the collectors to introduce their dna. if we take those two ideas and start weighing them up we can put logically together a list of points, those most likely and those most unlikely to of happened. if we then add to the mix sovereign, the reaper left behind and charged with preparing the galaxy for the next reaping, we have to instantly strike off a bunch of our previous points. the fact that the last 50,000 years has not been a vacuum but as stated by vigil(remember we can't believe ANYTHING sovereign says, even though vigil backs up a few of it's points, just best to forget thinking about anything it says) as a carefully planned and controlled experiment in evolution then we can't possibly leave the collectors origin or development up to chance. the collectors have to of been interfered with, the fact they have reaper tech confirms that. so we then go back to the first 2 points, either they were around before and survived for some reason(without vigils knowledge) or the protheans survived. one point that does pop up when you start looking at that is maybe they were created by sovereign fresh, a new species it created and controlled just for the coming reaping. now we have 3 points and we have to start weighing them up. i've already explained why i think the first point is more likely, also why the second point isn't. there is no way that sovereign, who's job is to make sure the galaxy evolves along a pre-defined path, let a bunch of protheans escape and evolve into the collectors, it's had 50,000 years to track down the 12, there's no way they slipped past it. now when you start thinking about the 12 like that the third point pops up again, maybe it found them and re purposed them? i think that pretty unlikely though as they can control anything and everything right on the battlefield, as stated before, there's no reason for sovereign to create a new race to serve the reapers, they can just control what they find, like the geth, it would be a potentially dangerous move when you have a pre defined plan that has been in effect for millions of years(possibly, or a few hundred thousand).

[Nincehelser]

This is all as I understand it, so here goes. I have not read any books besides Revelation, so any material that is supposed here may in fact be explained as otherwise in other books:

To the original question: The Reapers, needing a secure base to produce more Reapers away from the prying eyes of whatever sentient species that happens to develop after a harvesting, build a base in a place where no one could possibly wander into, in the middle of the galactic core. The "eye" of the black hole hurricane as it were. Since mass effect fields can reduce or raise the total mass of an object, enough energy into a mass effect field could reduce an object's mass to zero, thus enabling the Reapers and their base to exist in the midst of a bunch of black holes. Once constructed, the Reapers used a mass relay that utilizes a Reaper IFF to work properly, thus discouraging any species from attempting access to it (the Omega 4 relay). It even looks different and imposing with a red light instead of an inviting white light, thus distinguishing it from all other mass relays. Since the Reaper's first attack is (as far as we know) always at the Citadel, and the Omega 4 relay does not connect to the Citadel, it would be impractical to remain there themselves.

As a contingency, the Reapers use a slave race to monitor any sapient species that arise. This race is probably comprised of the last species harvested by the Reapers, since they have the most material to work with immediately following a harvest. Through a process we are not entirely given (a dues ex machina) the Reapers turned the remaining, non-harvested (probably the indoctrinated) Protheans into the Collectors. We know that the Protheans were being harvested because it was the Protheans who named the Reapers. Reapers. Not Destroyers or Annihilators. They were being reaped, and they knew it enough to name the agents of their destruction such.

Since the Collectors must act rationally, but not independently, a "general" was developed to assume direct control of a minion and lead them in an action. As a speculation, the Collectors may be used as soldiers in a reaping process, since mindless husks and gigantic spaceships alone may be impractical in wiping out a species. See zombie defense strategies for more info on defenses against husks. Since using Collectors as soldiers probably depletes the Collector population during a reaping, more are needed afterwards. In this time, the Protheans were the last species, so it was they who were harvested.

Since the Reapers want an edge over any and all possible sapient species that may arise for eternity, Reapers themselves reproduce using the strongest, most adaptive species flourishing at the time of a reaping. In this particular time, it is us. (Go team us! We're better than sexy, millennia-old blue jedi or millenia-old bipedal dinosaurs!) That is why the Reapers are making a human Reaper.

Also while on the topic, it is stated as a strange coincidence that most races are bipedal, oxygen breathing, two eyed, two armed, brain-in-the-forehead creatures. We learn from Sovereign in ME1 that the mass relay and mass effect technologies are given to races "in order to develop along the paths we desire". Is it too much of a coincidence that the Reapers favor this configuration for some reason? Any species that achieves success while deviating from this formula, like the rachni or the geth, are manipulated into being annihilated (in the case of the geth, unsuccessfully). If that is the case, life is seeded by the Reapers for harvesting at a later date, again for reasons that are beyond our comprehension.

Sorry for the length.

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

2. If you honestly believe that this will be the first time the Reapers actually harvest a species, then you're out of your "mind." And if you're suggesting that they have, but didn't try with the Protheans, than you're even more of your rocker. And if you're implying that no one has guess accurately a plot twist in a game, then your guess work can't be worth much.
3. Built a Relay? With twelve people? Even through cloning that's ridiculous; how'd they gather the resources? The time? The anything they'd require to do so? Not to mention why the hell would they build a relay that shoots off into the galactic core? A seething mass of SUNS and BLACK HOLES. There's no point, not unless you were trying to hide, which the reapers obviously wanted their pet collectors to do. Hence, its FAR more likely that the Reapers had the Collectors build the thing to hide in.
4. Are you suggesting that the surviving Protheans turned themselves into Collectors to "Survive?" What the holy f*ck would they gain from turning themselves into souless, braindead, completely subservient husks? 'Cause that's exactly what the Collectors are. Tools for the reapers, its black and white, clear as crystal.
6. Whether you wan't to see it as evidence, or something that merely conflicts with your warped perception of clearly established, or at the very least, completely logical events, is irrelevant. Its still there, and it still makes more sense than your babble. You're like Zulu with his "Vigil lied to us!" theory.

Except he knows how to write a fun debate, unlike you, who's trolling for attention.

So no, they're not fact, seeing as I, and many others, just
refuted most of them, its speculation, which was my point. I'm not
going to argue any further, considering I never really liked beating my head against a brick wall until it bleeds. Good luck Raven.

Cheers.

Your only beating your head against a wall if you biased right out of the gate! Iam trying to explaine my self and you keep runing off. Try listening to me for once.

2. It was NEVER said that they harvest races. Mass Effect wiki mentions this! It says that it is "presumed" to be the anwser. Like I have said a million times that any time a major plot twist is revaled it is known as a fact in this case EDI is telling you that she is only guessing because of lack of intel. Mass Effect Wiki also states that the reapers motives are unknown still......what does that tell you????????????????????
3.We dont know that the protheans knew. As I said it makes no sense to keep a race maintained and upgraded for 50k when you can just use a current race in that current cycle. This points to the collectors being an unforeseen problem for the reapers.
4.(sigh) NO.....some how the reapers gained control of them. they were trying to survive from the reapers and the reapers "repurposed them!
5. Vigil did not lie to us.....If your calling me an idiot because I dont take the game at face value like you do then that is not being stupid thats understanding how games work. There is more facts supporting my claim then you have supporting the status quo. Remember dude if you take a story driven game at status quo (like what your doing) then your saying that there is no spoilers in a deep story game...and that is just stupid.

[KevShep]

d1sciple wrote...

 there is no way that sovereign, who's job is to make sure the galaxy evolves along a pre-defined path, let a bunch of protheans escape and evolve into the collectors, it's had 50,000 years to track down the 12, there's no way they slipped past it.).

Sovereign is not awake all the time. This is probably why they navagated out to the core of the galaxy (away from reaper eyes). Plus they could have used the cloning system(and protein vats) in the citadel(one used by the keepers) since the 12 had full control of the station. It would have been suicide for a reaper to head through the omega relay. Since the protheans built it then they have its power. They could have shut it off and then sovereign would have spent the next few thousand years trying to find a way into it. Which of course he does.

[KevShep]

Nincehelser wrote...

.

 

To your first paragraph-- It is still not known what the reapers real motives are. As stated by Mass Effect 2 wiki. You also mentioned that the Omega 4 relay is NOT connected to the citadel!  This again points to my theory as it not being of reaper design.

Second one- They dont need slaves to monitor the galaxy. Thats what sovereign is for. A "reaper" is also death. Vigil mentions that they were being obliterated(killed). 

Thrid--lol. I have a theory on this as well...Its called " cool reaper theory ".

[Nincehelser]

@Kevshep:

I assume the Reapers motivations are entirely logical. In order to assure their own survival, they must wipe out other sapient species before they achieve a level of technology rivaling that of the Reapers themselves. They cannot, however, completely wipe out all life, due (this is a guess on my part) to the need for fuel, materials, whatever. Again, I assume that even though they "shut down" in dark space between reapings, they still consume some fuel. So they reap every 50,000 years or so. Since they may take losses (i certainly plan on killing some Reapers in ME3), replacements are another priority. Hence, the reproduction we see at the end of ME2, using the "best" race of the previous cycle.

Plenty of mass relays are not directly connected to the Citadel. While the Citadel is a strategic "hub", you can clearly see the pathways the other relays have to take on the ME2 galaxy map. Sovereign clearly states that "We constructed the Citadel. It is we who forged the mass relays." in ME1. If we take its words as truth (and honestly, it had no reason to lie), then the Reapers made the mass relays. Whether or not they were made by the Reapers themselves, or any race prior to the Protheans is irrelevant. They serve the purpose the Reapers put to them. The Protheans may have been on the verge of the mass relays technology, but only managed to construct the Conduit before being all but wiped out. Again, as stated in ME1 by Vigil.

Sovereign cannot be everywhere at once. While its not impossible that it can monitor the mass relay network, more eyes on the ground, especially if they are enslaved to the Reapers, are always a plus. Should a threat develop, Sovereign alone may not be able to solve it. Hence, Collector slaves.

[KevShep]

Nincehelser wrote...

@Kevshep:

I assume the Reapers motivations are entirely logical. In order to assure their own survival, they must wipe out other sapient species before they achieve a level of technology rivaling that of the Reapers themselves. They cannot, however, completely wipe out all life, due (this is a guess on my part) to the need for fuel, materials, whatever. Again, I assume that even though they "shut down" in dark space between reapings, they still consume some fuel. So they reap every 50,000 years or so. Since they may take losses (i certainly plan on killing some Reapers in ME3), replacements are another priority. Hence, the reproduction we see at the end of ME2, using the "best" race of the previous cycle.

Plenty of mass relays are not directly connected to the Citadel. While the Citadel is a strategic "hub", you can clearly see the pathways the other relays have to take on the ME2 galaxy map. Sovereign clearly states that "We constructed the Citadel. It is we who forged the mass relays." in ME1. If we take its words as truth (and honestly, it had no reason to lie), then the Reapers made the mass relays. Whether or not they were made by the Reapers themselves, or any race prior to the Protheans is irrelevant. They serve the purpose the Reapers put to them. The Protheans may have been on the verge of the mass relays technology, but only managed to construct the Conduit before being all but wiped out. Again, as stated in ME1 by Vigil.

Sovereign cannot be everywhere at once. While its not impossible that it can monitor the mass relay network, more eyes on the ground, especially if they are enslaved to the Reapers, are always a plus. Should a threat develop, Sovereign alone may not be able to solve it. Hence, Collector slaves.

All theorys aside....There is no evidence that says that the reapers have harvested any other race other then humans. There IS...however evidence that the reapers have completely killed off everyone. ME wiki again states that the reapers motives are still unknown. This means that there is a spoiler involved with the reapers in ME3!....but what? notice to that cerberus has a similar unkown to them as well.....Does this mean that they could share the same exact spoiler?.....I bet yes!

I understand what your saying about the relays but there is strong feeling(mixed with evidence) that the Omega 4 relay is not of reaper design. If you notice in ME wiki it completely leaves out how the relay came to be or why it looks different. Its dudgeing some main questions that if the game is taken at face value then It would have no problem answering it.....but it avoids it. This means that there has to be more to the relay(ME3 spoiler) The only reason that the reapers had to use the collectors is because there plan went to sh*t.

If the 12 survived then that means that they have a completely incredible chance to really stop them. I doubt that they just gave up and died. They have full control of the citadel for crying out loud. There is no way that they stoped with the Keeper singal not when they have the portein vats and the cloning station at there finger tips.

[Destroy Raiden_]

duct tape, spit, and liquid human glue.....Ask BW.

[mredders91]

there are just no more words that can decribe the circle your walk in kevshep

1) true no evidence they have however its unlikey the numbers of reapers are just from on speices as its was said by edi it took take billions or more to create just one reaper so likey hood is that of the prefer theroy that the reapers uses a small indoctrinated speices usally the from the previous reaping that were unable to be turn in a reaper and uses them to test and construct reapers.

2) plz show me this mixed evidence cause ive not seen any the likey reason for the differnt type of realy is likey due to its reaching from the outside of the galaxie to the galaxic core this would undoulty need more energy to take the travel there and back. it also in the codex of me1/me2 that relays can be different sizes depening on how far the distance they travel.

3) 12 people trap on the citadel with no reasource or anyways to get them. they didnt not have control of the citadel they could only effect blocking the signal that the keeper could be given to open the citadel relay nothing more. the reapers would have removed and trace of prothean tech from the citadel so there would be nothing avable to them to escape with

[Angel-Shinkiro]

How did they build anything; they don't exactly have opposable thumbs.

I think I have just discovered a new theory.

[KevShep]

mredders91 wrote...

there are just no more words that can decribe the circle your walk in kevshep

1) true no evidence they have however its unlikey the numbers of reapers are just from on speices as its was said by edi it took take billions or more to create just one reaper so likey hood is that of the prefer theroy that the reapers uses a small indoctrinated speices usally the from the previous reaping that were unable to be turn in a reaper and uses them to test and construct reapers.

2) plz show me this mixed evidence cause ive not seen any the likey reason for the differnt type of realy is likey due to its reaching from the outside of the galaxie to the galaxic core this would undoulty need more energy to take the travel there and back. it also in the codex of me1/me2 that relays can be different sizes depening on how far the distance they travel.

3) 12 people trap on the citadel with no reasource or anyways to get them. they didnt not have control of the citadel they could only effect blocking the signal that the keeper could be given to open the citadel relay nothing more. the reapers would have removed and trace of prothean tech from the citadel so there would be nothing avable to them to escape with

1. EDI is only guessing. She makes this clear. EDI is only guessing based on the facts that they have. Know this...What do they reall know about the collector base? Anytime that a major plot hole is filled it is almost always not by some lucky guess( thats bad writing). If a game does this then that means that there is more to the story then they are letting you see(hence ME3 spoilers).

2 They are different sizes yes. but the O4 relay appears to be of a different construct. Also the collectors ships/base are of prothean design.......NOT...reaper design.

3. They have the vats and the cloning stations that the keepers used. We dont know how much the 12 knew about the citadel. However it was more then any one else has ever known. If the 12 can change the singal to the keepers then whats stopping them from trying to do more to the keepers? They could have done this to get to the protein vats and even clone themselves like the keepers did. The reapers would not even know that the 12 were there. The reapers had gone into dark space.

[mredders91]

what stoping the indoctrinated protheans from creating build new ships/stations.
indoctrinated is how reapers gain control over speices it doesnt makes them braindead as it was ssaid in me1 the "The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become" this means that the protheans would have been able to build what was need before losing there minds to the reapers

[KevShep]

mredders91 wrote...

what stoping the indoctrinated protheans from creating build new ships/stations.
indoctrinated is how reapers gain control over speices it doesnt makes them braindead as it was ssaid in me1 the "The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become" this means that the protheans would have been able to build what was need before losing there minds to the reapers

Iam not sure I understand what your saying here but....Here is my theory in a nut shell.

The 12 found that they could do more then just change the singal so they found a way off the citadel(how is completely unknown) and made a new plan. Since the protheans were on the verge of making a real working relay then it they may have done just that(O4 relay). Since the Omega station was minded out for Ezo (notice that this is what the relays use) then this maybe how the 12 (maybe more by now because of cloning) built the relay in the same system(this asteroid becames omega station).Now the hard part.....navagate through the core(unsure if the protheans knew that much off hand). They then make a base to set up away from the eyes of the reapers in order to finally stop the reapers for good.  Since they now control this relay the reapers cant access it no matter what they do. They can destroy it, but that well just make finding them harder. At some point something bad goes wrong and the reapers gain control.

In order to maintain hold of the protheans untill the invasion they are given implants to compensate for indoctrination. This proves that keeping a slave race for a long time is just not that smart. Thats why the reapers will use slaves of the current cycle instead of an already there race. Notice this too... That if the collectors are there in EVERY cycle then why is sovereign there? Cant the collectors singal the citadel? Sovereign is supposed to "watch" the galaxy but if there are collectors there then again what is Sovereign doing there?  If the collectors are there in all cycles then why doesnt there ships/base look more like reaper desgin?  If the reapers need collectors then why would they stick with that race of collectors instead of an AI from another past cycle?

It looks to me that the collectors are an unforeseem problem by the reapers that they are having to deal with. If there dealing with them then the reapers are going to use them. Thats what there doing!

[BentOrgy]

KevShep wrote...

mredders91 wrote...

there are just no more words that can decribe the circle your walk in kevshep

1) true no evidence they have however its unlikey the numbers of reapers are just from on speices as its was said by edi it took take billions or more to create just one reaper so likey hood is that of the prefer theroy that the reapers uses a small indoctrinated speices usally the from the previous reaping that were unable to be turn in a reaper and uses them to test and construct reapers.

2) plz show me this mixed evidence cause ive not seen any the likey reason for the differnt type of realy is likey due to its reaching from the outside of the galaxie to the galaxic core this would undoulty need more energy to take the travel there and back. it also in the codex of me1/me2 that relays can be different sizes depening on how far the distance they travel.

3) 12 people trap on the citadel with no reasource or anyways to get them. they didnt not have control of the citadel they could only effect blocking the signal that the keeper could be given to open the citadel relay nothing more. the reapers would have removed and trace of prothean tech from the citadel so there would be nothing avable to them to escape with

1. EDI is only guessing. She makes this clear. EDI is only guessing based on the facts that they have. Know this...What do they reall know about the collector base? Anytime that a major plot hole is filled it is almost always not by some lucky guess( thats bad writing). If a game does this then that means that there is more to the story then they are letting you see(hence ME3 spoilers).

2 They are different sizes yes. but the O4 relay appears to be of a different construct. Also the collectors ships/base are of prothean design.......NOT...reaper design.

3. They have the vats and the cloning stations that the keepers used. We dont know how much the 12 knew about the citadel. However it was more then any one else has ever known. If the 12 can change the singal to the keepers then whats stopping them from trying to do more to the keepers? They could have done this to get to the protein vats and even clone themselves like the keepers did. The reapers would not even know that the 12 were there. The reapers had gone into dark space.

You entirely missed the first point:

If the Reapers never harvested any other race, how the hell are there so many? Are you simplying that they started out with that many? If so, there would have to have been trillions of the original "Reaper Race." I for one, find that very hard to believe.

You say the EDI was guessing numbers? Here's a REAL fact for you; it is explicitly stated by a crew member that "They're going to target earth." because of all the empty stasis pods on the Collector Ship, in conjunction with the fact that when we arrive at the Human Reaper, its barely assembled, and we know for a fact that only a few million or so people were used at that point. We can safely infer that it requires billions of people to make just ONE Reaper.

(I know I said I'd stop arguing, but NO ONE calls me stupid, unless I've made an actual mistake, which I didn't. I gave clear reasons why your theories are NOT fact, and all you did is waltz in a circle claiming that we're all wrong. Additionally, I never take anything short of my what's been clearly proven at "Face value." I'm not bending to the "Status quo." Its far more likely, given things as the are now, that you're just making Mass Effect's story FAR more complex than it really is. There are FAR more things indicating that WE are correct, and YOU are not. But you have your head shoved so far up your theory's ass, that you refuse to see it.)

Good day/night/morning whatever.

[KevShep]

BentOrgy wrote...

You entirely missed the first point:

If the Reapers never harvested any other race, how the hell are there so many? Are you simplying that they started out with that many? If so, there would have to have been trillions of the original "Reaper Race." I for one, find that very hard to believe.

You say the EDI was guessing numbers? Here's a REAL fact for you; it is explicitly stated by a crew member that "They're going to target earth." because of all the empty stasis pods on the Collector Ship, in conjunction with the fact that when we arrive at the Human Reaper, its barely assembled, and we know for a fact that only a few million or so people were used at that point. We can safely infer that it requires billions of people to make just ONE Reaper.

(I know I said I'd stop arguing, but NO ONE calls me stupid, unless I've made an actual mistake, which I didn't. I gave clear reasons why your theories are NOT fact, and all you did is waltz in a circle claiming that we're all wrong. Additionally, I never take anything short of my what's been clearly proven at "Face value." I'm not bending to the "Status quo." Its far more likely, given things as the are now, that you're just making Mass Effect's story FAR more complex than it really is. There are FAR more things indicating that WE are correct, and YOU are not. But you have your head shoved so far up your theory's ass, that you refuse to see it.)

Good day/night/morning whatever.

I am sorry if I came off rude. My intent is not to hurt people, I just hate it when people dont care about someones feelings and bashes them without being spoken for.

Yes your right about holes in my theory.....100%.
 The reason I keep going in a circle is not because Iam supporting my theory and claiming that there is no holes ......Iam supporting that facts that lead to my theory. There are facts in my theory that is the bread and butter of the topic not the theory itself.

I look at what is there and I make a theory on what Ive found to ether be wrong with or not right with something in the game. Facts with holes can lead to a big number of theorys.

I understand that debating a theory IS like bashing your head against a wall but my original reason for posting was to share my findings with everyone and see if any one else sees them too. I still stand by the facts untill shown otherwise to not be fact. If you want to debate JUST the facts(no theorys) then that might be better.

Modifié par KevShep, 24 août 2011 - 05:59 .