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[Barquiel]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

...and the most advanced ships (if we believe Tali).

When did she say that?

Liara/Tali elevator banter

[Golden Owl]

Luc0s wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Seriously, don't flaunt outdated discredited versions of sociobiology, it lowers the discussion

I'm not talking about Social Darwinism, which is not survival of the fittest but survival of whoever we choose for social reasons.


I'm talking about the actual primal instrinct within every single creature that drives us into protecting our own genes over anything else.

There is a specific order of importance for most animals, including humans. The order is like this:

your children > yourself > your family > your pack, tribe or social circle > your species > other species


In humans, this order can sometimes be a bit different, but generally we got that specific order of importance imprinted in us. It's in our nature.

Unless you remain painfully aware of the plights, feelings, sensations others experience...thats a spanner in works....hard choices can still be made but at a much greater personal cost.

Because humans are sapient species, we can make decisions that go against our nature. However, those decisions will feel "wrong" on an emotional level and are much harder to make than decisions that fit within our nature.


Sure, you COULD save "random person X" at the cost of your own child, but it would be the most difficult choice you'll ever make. The emotional impact will be devastating. Most people would never be able to make that decision simply because they care more about their own child than "random person X". Which is perfectly natural.

True...though this fails to work once we hit species level...an unknown human is just as foreign as a unknown alien.

[Wulfram]

Luc0s wrote...

*sigh*

Again, they're still weaker than human, turian and krogan militairy.


"While fluid and mobile, asari can't stand up in a firestorm the way a krogan, turian, or human could."

That doesn't say they're weaker, that says they're best as light infantry.  Naturally, you'd use Asari commandoes in a different way to Krogan berserkers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Why the hell would I put a fan-service race above humanity?

[Xilizhra]

Which is fine. (although you do realize that you won't live long comparably to make much of an impact on your daughters right?)

However I have to ask, why does Liara suddenly make the species you have grown around, learned from, essentially your social group from the very beginning more important? Love is love yes, but what about your family? Even earth born shep had his/her own human social groups, ranging from the human gangs to the human miltary.

Not knocking liara, or even the Asari. Just curious how a lifes worth of social groups gets outed by one person, who doesn't even accounts for a year of your life.

My family is either rotting or already incinerated on Mindoir. And in any case, Liara's a minor piece of it all; I was just looking at population numbers and threw Liara into it to counter all the reproduction crap.

[Golden Owl]

Luc0s wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

True...though this fails to work once we hit species level...an unknown human is just as foreign as a unknown alien.

Not true. I relate more to an unknown Dutch guy than an unkown Chinese guy.

This is not racist and it's not nationalist either. It's just true. I can't help it. I'm Dutch myself so it's just natural for me to relate more to other Dutch people (and care more about them) than Chinese people or German people or American people.

This goes for culture and religion too.

I believe that a Christian would save another Christian over a Muslim. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but that's what I believe.

PS: I'm non-religious myself.

Funny you should mention that...I in fact relate to two other races much better than I relate to my own race....that's due to cultral understanding though, not color....though I do not live within the cultures I favor.....So I would guess it most likely comes down to culture and the feeling of connection not color.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 21 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[Jessihatt]

No way would I save asari over humanity.
Asari are 5th on my priority list, and only because other races respect them.
I don't dislike them as a species, just the individuals who flirt with my Shepard..
Of course, if I can save them, I will. But if the only way to save humanity is to kill the asari species, I will do it without hesitation!

[ddv.rsa]

Luc0s wrote...

I don't see how that's more useful than brute force. In fact, I think brute force in combination with scientific experts that can find out the weakness of our enemy is the best option.

Manuever warfare (Alliance doctrine)  != brute force.

Brute force is the human wave attacks the Soviets used in World War II, or in Mass Effect traditional Krogan tactics.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 21 août 2011 - 12:34 .

[TobyHasEyes]

SandTrout wrote...

People that operate counter to their own self-interest almost invariably suffer from other personality problems such as addiction and suicidal tendencies, or low self-esteem at the least. Preservation of your species is an extension of self-interest. This kind of self-hate is an illness that is the cause of a great many social ills.

 Deeply speculative and unfounded assertions there; claiming that people whose life is directed towards helping others rather than self-interest is a symptom of a personality problem would be widely contested

 I would also contest the idea that most of the social ills of our day are caused by people prioritising others over themselves and their own social groups

 .. what the world.. needs now.. is self-interest, self-interest, self interest ..  beautiful lyrics

[Wulfram]

Luc0s wrote...

Yes, asari commando's are used for this:

"So asari units typically undertake special operations missions. Like an army of ninja, they are adept at ambush, infiltration, and assassination, demoralizing and defeating their enemies through intense, focused guerrilla strikes."

I don't see how that's more useful than brute force. In fact, I think brute force in combination with scientific experts that can find out the weakness of our enemy is the best option.

With Turians and Krogan, we've got plenty of brute force.  So I'll take some elite commandoes to go along with them.

Also, don't forget this part:

"The asari are the finest warriors in the galaxy. Fortunately, there are not many of them."

Most Asari are by nature not particularly militarily inclined, but the threat of total annihilation should get them signing up.

[ddv.rsa]

Luc0s wrote...

That's in space. We were talking about groundside battles. That's a totally different thing.

I'm talking groundside. I edited my post for clarity, take another look.

[mineralica]

What? Of course not

[Golden Owl]

Luc0s wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Funny you should mention that...I in fact relate to two other races much better than I relate to my own race....that's due to cultral understanding though, not color....though I do not live within the cultures I favor.....So I would guess it most likely comes down to culture and the feeling of connection not color.

Fair enough.

But then there still is the fact that (most likely) every other species will look out for themselves. So if humanity doesn't look out for itself, then who does?

Being Commander Shepard, who's practically almost like a new Jesus to the human race, it would be really a stab in the back of your own species if you save the asari over humanity, your own species.

Humanity RELIES on you. The COUNT on you. You are their hero! Sacrificing them to save some hot blue ass can come off as betrayal (I think it is betrayal) and it's kind of a d*ck thing to do.


Saving humanity first (or at least make saving humanity your highest priority)  is the morally right thing to do.

As I feel the best thing Shep can do is concentrate on species by merit not species....The whole of the Galaxy is relying on him in this war not just humanity....As for the 'hot blue ass', has no meaning to me, I am a woman so blue ass certainly doesn't play any role in my perceptions.

The morally right thing to do...how so?

[Dean_the_Young]

Golden Owl wrote...

True...though this fails to work once we hit species level...an unknown human is just as foreign as a unknown alien.

Not really. There's evolutionary familiarity and identity with an unknown human. An unknown alien depends on what their dominant features are (more presumed familiarity with, say, Salrians than Rachni).

[Xilizhra]

As for the 'hot blue ass', has no meaning to me, I am a woman so blue ass certainly doesn't play any role in my perceptions.

Well, I'm also a woman and blue ass may spur me on some, though mostly it's the population thing.

[Xilizhra]

Because every single species is looking out for themselves. The powerful individuals from the other species also prioritize their own species above other species. Just look at (the original) council. They obviously put the needs of their own species above the needs of other species. This is perfectly understandable and perfectly natural. But if we won't do the same, then how is that NOT betrayal to your own species?

If Commander Shepard won't look out for humanity, than who will?

I'm a Spectre. My duty is to the galaxy as a whole.

[ddv.rsa]

Luc0s wrote...

WW2 tactics do not apply to the Alliance in the Mass Effect universe.

Humans are different now (in Mass Effect) with a different militairy and different tactics.


Guirilla warfare is nice when it works, but I doubt it will work against the reapers, unless we have enough force and firepower to wipe out an entire platoon of reapers with every single surprise attack.

I'm just pointing out that Alliance doctrine is distinct from Krogan style warfare (brute force) and Asari style warfare (guerilla). Our first response is not to throw a division at a strong point, we rather to try to outflank it. We focus heavily on training, fire support, good intel, tech, etc. In fact Alliance doctrine seems to be heavily based on current US doctrine, which is by no stretch brute force.