1104 réponses à ce sujet

[Warlocomotf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Humans are selfish, greedy, arrogant, aggresive- etc. Sure, not all of them- but those who are are the ones in power.

True, I would save Salarians before the Asari, but the Asari still seems like a preferable species to humanity. If I had children, would I want them surrounded by a compassionate, intelligent, peaceful and open minded people- or would I ignore all of that and just care about whether they have similar DNA?

Personally, I find "same species" less important than species characteristics.

Name an Asari leader to date who hasn't been self-interested, patronizing, and aggressive? We know two Asari elites: Nasana Dantius, who should be obvious, and the Asari Councilor... you know, who's entire job is putting a nice face on making deals to the advantage of the Asari, sending Spectres to swat inconveniences, and dismisses billions because they haven't met an arbitary standard of 'contribute to the galaxy' (or rather, Council).

Benezia? Also your evidence against the Asari Councilor is shoddy at best. Yes, the volus weren't put on the council- but they were allowed tons of new planets for expansion. Your argument that the council is holding everyone else down really does not have a tremendous amount of compelling support as far as I can tell.

[Arppis]

Luc0s wrote...

Edit: Let me ask you: Do you see one of the asari, turian or salarian councilors abandoning their own species to save humanity or another species? No, you don't.

Garrus did. He even suggested that you let their councilor die with the DA.

They will help you if you show them that you are worth their time and that you are really working WITH THEM, not ready to stab them in the back. Humanity can't stand on their own against reapers.

Modifié par Arppis, 21 août 2011 - 01:46 .

[Warlocomotf]

Arppis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Humans are selfish, greedy, arrogant, aggresive- etc. Sure, not all of them- but those who are are the ones in power.

True, I would save Salarians before the Asari, but the Asari still seems like a preferable species to humanity. If I had children, would I want them surrounded by a compassionate, intelligent, peaceful and open minded people- or would I ignore all of that and just care about whether they have similar DNA?

Personally, I find "same species" less important than species characteristics.

Name an Asari leader to date who hasn't been self-interested, patronizing, and aggressive? We know two Asari elites: Nasana Dantius, who should be obvious, and the Asari Councilor... you know, who's entire job is putting a nice face on making deals to the advantage of the Asari, sending Spectres to swat inconveniences, and dismisses billions because they haven't met an arbitary standard of 'contribute to the galaxy' (or rather, Council).

Don't forget the leader of Omega.

Yeah, she is in fact so aggresive that... Oh right, she doesn't really bother with competing merc groups and what not.
Also, she's so self interested that... :/ She actually helps Shepard stop archangel from being killed? Also, it sounds like she's really taxing the **** out of local business. What is that you say? That's not her but actually the Elcor? Well- ****!
Well, atleast she's patronizing right? I mean, she did say "Omega doesn't care about you" (riht after she said she was curious about you, but lets ignore that).

Like it or not, but she's probably the most favorable leader Omega could possibly have.

[Golden Owl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

True...though this fails to work once we hit species level...an unknown human is just as foreign as a unknown alien.

Not really. There's evolutionary familiarity and identity with an unknown human. An unknown alien depends on what their dominant features are (more presumed familiarity with, say, Salrians than Rachni).

I am generally much more affected by culture than race/species...species really doesn't hold a lot of meaning to me, but culture does....I find my relating or not relating to species in ME is purely driven by how I view their culture.

Not least, mind you, because your basis of comparison is other humans. You're making about the same sort of defense of pre-modern racism: back before Europe had much contact with other continents white-on-white distinctions were far more common than white-vs-anything else. Once continental travel started, however, you saw a cultural shift dominated less color than ethnicity. You're in the same position: because your awareness is to your immediate surroundings, you think that's what dominates. As your awareness expands, however, you raise to the next level.

In truth, aliens aren't going to be humans with funny skin suits. You'll have far more biology and culture in common with today's China than an alien civilization that has entirely different evolutionary/social considerations that shaped it.

And yes, that may very well contribute Dean...but it is the ME Aliens we are in fact really discussing their cultures are only variations of those found among Earthen cultures...so now that all depends on how far we want to stretch our perceptions here.

Hmmm....Am getting tired...it's getting late here...I am not sure if I am making much sense anymore...might be high time to call it quits shortly.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 21 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[Whatever42]

Krogan attacked and conquered other worlds.
Batarians have the most brutal slavery system imaginable.
Salarians developed a genophage that crushed the krogans and maintain it.
Turians and Asari also participated in the genocide. They also participated in the supposed extinction of the Rachni.
The council races maintain the control by suppressing other races like the volus and elcor.
The Asari practice slavery.
Asari maidens routinely become mercenaries, and we see how they act.

I think the whole point of the ME series is that no matter what your color or shape that none of us are very nice. We all fight to survive not because we've met some high ethical standard but because we're us.

If you hate yourself then you may choose to defend some other race instead, but don't say its because they're better. There is zero evidence of that.

Also, the entire galaxy is not relying on Shepard. You think the Turian military is sitting around, anxiously wringing their hands hoping that Shepard will save them? Or that the Asari commandos or Salarian special ops sit paralysed, praying that Shepard will deliver them? Shepard is human. Shepard looks out for humanity.

It's simply that Shepard realizes that each species fighting alone will lose. If he wants to save Earth, he must convince each species to work together. To earn their trust and save humanity, he may have to show that this alliance values all races equally.

[Arppis]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Humans are selfish, greedy, arrogant, aggresive- etc. Sure, not all of them- but those who are are the ones in power.

True, I would save Salarians before the Asari, but the Asari still seems like a preferable species to humanity. If I had children, would I want them surrounded by a compassionate, intelligent, peaceful and open minded people- or would I ignore all of that and just care about whether they have similar DNA?

Personally, I find "same species" less important than species characteristics.

Name an Asari leader to date who hasn't been self-interested, patronizing, and aggressive? We know two Asari elites: Nasana Dantius, who should be obvious, and the Asari Councilor... you know, who's entire job is putting a nice face on making deals to the advantage of the Asari, sending Spectres to swat inconveniences, and dismisses billions because they haven't met an arbitary standard of 'contribute to the galaxy' (or rather, Council).

Don't forget the leader of Omega.

Yeah, she is in fact so aggresive that... Oh right, she doesn't really bother with competing merc groups and what not.
Also, she's so self interested that... :/ She actually helps Shepard stop archangel from being killed? Also, it sounds like she's really taxing the **** out of local business. What is that you say? That's not her but actually the Elcor? Well- ****!
Well, atleast she's patronizing right? I mean, she did say "Omega doesn't care about you" (riht after she said she was curious about you, but lets ignore that).

Like it or not, but she's probably the most favorable leader Omega could possibly have.

Shes a good character. I was ready to overthrow her, till I really saw how she operates. She really is propably the best leader omega has atm. Atlhou, I wish she could solve the overflowing poverty somehow, but that's a really big issue and isn't solved over-night.

[Dean_the_Young]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Humans are selfish, greedy, arrogant, aggresive- etc. Sure, not all of them- but those who are are the ones in power.

True, I would save Salarians before the Asari, but the Asari still seems like a preferable species to humanity. If I had children, would I want them surrounded by a compassionate, intelligent, peaceful and open minded people- or would I ignore all of that and just care about whether they have similar DNA?

Personally, I find "same species" less important than species characteristics.

Name an Asari leader to date who hasn't been self-interested, patronizing, and aggressive? We know two Asari elites: Nasana Dantius, who should be obvious, and the Asari Councilor... you know, who's entire job is putting a nice face on making deals to the advantage of the Asari, sending Spectres to swat inconveniences, and dismisses billions because they haven't met an arbitary standard of 'contribute to the galaxy' (or rather, Council).

Benezia?

Benezia willingly joined Saren because she knew he was going to do great evils, and she was willing to help if it led to a greater good (such as diminishing them later). If that's not the flaws of aggressive, nothing is. Likewise, her mindset was distinctly paternalist, so check that as well. And self-interested... yes. A mitigating a common threat that could endanger you as well is no less self-interested, especially when you can stand to benefit from it as well (as she would have had it worked).

Also your evidence against the Asari Councilor is shoddy at best. Yes, the volus weren't put on the council- but they were allowed tons of new planets for expansion. Your argument that the council is holding everyone else down really does not have a tremendous amount of compelling support as far as I can tell.

Try harder, then. For one thing, consider the entire argument rather than focusing on one point as if it disproves the rest: for another, consider how allowances in one area are not the same as a lack of restraint in the same, let alone elsewhere.

The later is a poor argument at best, since the presence of a profit doesn't imply a lack of troubles. If a man makes a hundred dollars profit and I take fifty and use some of it to buy him a toy, simply because he ends up more than what he started (fifty and a toy) doesn't mean I wasn't holding him back. Every farmer (and good imperialist) knows that you shear the sheep, not butcher them.

[Arppis]

Luc0s wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Edit: Let me ask you: Do you see one of the asari, turian or salarian councilors abandoning their own species to save humanity or another species? No, you don't.

Garrus did. He even suggested that you let their councilor die with the DA.

They will help you if you show them that you are worth their time and that you are really working WITH THEM, not ready to stab them in the back. Humanity can't stand on their own against reapers.

We can agree on that.

But it's obvious that if Shepard doesn't look out for humanity, there soon won't be a humanity left to save.

Agreed. He has to help humanity. They don't really have much time.

Modifié par Arppis, 21 août 2011 - 01:50 .

[Luigitornado]

Nope. Bros before hoes.

[Golden Owl]

Luc0s wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Once again I pull up before including Species in that analogy....the whole Galaxy is relying on Shep, not just humans....and again I still see a major problem with the everybody out for themselves attitude...it solves nothing, only continues to compound the issue and the Galaxy continues to run around in circles getting nohere until species can start widening their circles to be all inclusive...that would be the Galaxies greatest strength against the reapers and beyond.

Yes, the whole galaxy is in need, but:

The asari have the asari councilor to look out for them.
The turians have the turian councilor to look out for them.
The salarians have the salarian councilor to look out for them.

All the other species already have their best men looking out for them. But who looks out for humanity if Shepard and Udina wouldn't look out for humanity?

It's just not fair to doom your own species for another species that already has help from their own councilor and men!


Maybe the "everybody look out for themselves" -atittude isn't something you like, but it's just how it works. It's the cruel reality (in Mass Effect).

Everyone else looks out for themselves (their own species) and there is nothing you can do about it. All you can do is do the same thing: look out for humanity. 

Sure, you can look out for another species (the asari) instead of humanity, but it will chance nothing in the larger scheme. All it changes is that humanity will go extinct and more asari will be left. In the meanwhile many other species will wonder why the human leaders are such fools that they don't look out for their own.


the greatest strength and the only way of defeating the reapers is to work together, preserve as much militairy power as possible and make the most strategic decisions.
If every species would base their decisions on what is strategicially the best thing to do, then we MIGHT have a chance against the reapers.

Saving the asari at the cost of many warships is not a strategic thing to do.


Edit: Let me ask you: Do you see one of the asari, turian or salarian councilors abandoning their own species to save humanity or another species? No, you don't.

Sorry Luc0s, I am calling it a night....is getting late here and I'm burning out...not conceding though...

[Arppis]

And to make sure that reapers won't get reinforced to the Shepard's strikeforces butt. So it's also beneficial to take down as much of their troops as possible before heading to earth, given that he has the time to do it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Warlocomotf wrote...


Yeah, she is in fact so aggresive that... Oh right, she doesn't really bother with competing merc groups and what not.

She's a crime lord who orders bombings, assassinations, and attacks on rival gangs that won't be co-opted. She admits to a history as a mercenary and a coup of Omega, and all has been an action-heroine in both of the comics she's been in so far.

The crux of Aria is that she doesn't bother others so long as they toe her line, but she's perfectly willing to be ruthless when it serves her. She is not a passive person: she's someone who's so on top of her world she doesn't need to fight much becuase she's already won.

I'm quickly noticing a pattern about you: if one thing doesn't fit a broad expectation it disproves everything.

Also, she's so self interested that... :/ She actually helps Shepard stop archangel from being killed?

You realize that self-interested people are quite often ambivalent or willing to help others for their own reasons?

Also, it sounds like she's really taxing the **** out of local business. What is that you say? That's not her but actually the Elcor? Well- ****!

Except she does get her cut of the money. This is well established as part of the lore about how things run on Omega. Simply because others are worse means only... well, others don't know how to shear sheep.

Well, atleast she's patronizing right? I mean, she did say "Omega doesn't care about you" (riht after she said she was curious about you, but lets ignore that).

Like it or not, but she's probably the most favorable leader Omega could possibly have.

Hugo Chavez would be better: at least he

[Ophiskc]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Benezia willingly joined Saren because she knew he was going to do great evils, and she was willing to help if it led to a greater good

Nope, quite the opposite, she wanted to help him to come to his senses again, but sadly became indocrinated too in the process.

And by the way, there's matriarch Aethyta who has good visions for her people, like the youngers to stop fooling around, and construct their own Mass Relays

Modifié par Ophiskc, 21 août 2011 - 02:17 .

[Ophiskc]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Like it or not, but she's probably the most favorable leader Omega could possibly have.

Hugo Chavez would be better

Lol what? omg suddenly i feel ashamed to have bothered into respond you about Benezia stuff

[Dean_the_Young]

Ophiskc wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Like it or not, but she's probably the most favorable leader Omega could possibly have.

Hugo Chavez would be better

Lol what? omg suddenly i feel ashamed to have bothered into respond you about Benezia stuff

See, Chavez would be incompetent, which is better than a ruthlessly effective crime lord.

Besides that a Chavez-figure would funnel money at Omega's slums rather than leave them to rot unattended, Chavez would be, well, bad at being bad.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ophiskc wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Benezia willingly joined Saren because she knew he was going to do great evils, and she was willing to help if it led to a greater good

Nope, quite the opposite, she wanted to help him to come to his senses again, but sadly became indocrinated too in the process.

And him coming to his senses (or rather, her senses) and diminishing his future evils would... not be a greater good?

And by the way, there's matriarch Aethyta who has good visions for her people, like the youngers to stop fooling around, and construct their own Mass Relays

Matriarch Aethyta is also not an elite. She's in the bar because she got laughed out, remember?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 août 2011 - 02:29 .

[EKhan]

Let's put it this way. If you are a human in this situation where you are a top-notch, super elite agent who is at this rather important decisions you should keep a few things in mind.

As a human, who were your parents? Humans.

As a human, what are your siblings? Humans.

As a human, what are your relatives? Humans, most likely.

As a human, what about your friends? Well this is variable and I KNOW I'll get people who will say something like "if I grew up in the ME universe I wouldn't be friends with humans at all!" Well maybe but general primal instinct drives all people and species to seek like minded and similar individuals. Even as a baby you were doing this and most people still have this reaction hardwired into their brain to varying degrees. The key is people try to push these feelings down and keep them hidden. But anyway, your friends are, probably for the most part, human.

If you are a human super soldier, who trained you? Probably the Aliance Military, the human's military force.

As you stand here with your fingers hovering over the "doom an entire species" button who do you think you owe most of your life to? Who gave you the opportunity to become great? Who raised you, loved you, cared for you, nurtured you, accepted you, trained you, prepared you? Well I'd say that's mixed but for the most part I'd say humans unless you are from a very diverse background.

I'd say even if you don't like humans, as a human you do owe it to your species to save them if the choice MUST be made. Of course I know I'll get arguments like "well I don't have parents/I don't like my parents/I don't like my family/I'd have asari friends, no human friends/In real life I don't have any sense of xenophobia or prejudice." If these are the cases then far be it for me to disagree. It's your life, your choice, I'm not going to belittle your opinion or say you are wrong. I just think that generally picking Asari over Humanity because you like how they act, you like their qualities, you like that they are all seemingly female, you hate human nature, you are a general misanthrope are not truly viable reasons. Such a deep choice needs to be thought about as most people are bound by obligation and emotions that I hope run deeper than "I like blue skin and tentacles more than black/white/red/yellow toned skin with hair" or whatever the case....

[sedrikhcain]

Golden Owl wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

That is not a moral issue, in fact it's contrary to moral choices...that's just continuing to support and compound a view should have been out dated a long time ago....just a show that all the species continue to lack the wisdom to see beyond themselves and is a serious threat to Galactic cohesion in the wake of a Reaper War.

Care to explain this post? Because I really don't see how looking out for your own species as a father would look out for his own daughter is "outdated".

I don't see how dooming your own species to save another species (that might not even need your help) is a serious threat to galactic cohesion. All other species will look out for themselves first and foremost, so why would we shoot ourselves in the foot by not doing the same?

Would the asari councilor sacrifice the asari race to save humanity?
Would the turian councilor sacrifice the turian race to save humanity?
Would the salarian councilor sacrifice the salarian race to save humanity?

My answer: I highly doubt it.

You are stating that is the moral thing to do is to look out for Number 1 because that is what everyone else is doing...I disagree.that mentality already causes enough problems on our own planet in the now...the Galaxy is just an extension of the same philosophy.

That's fair enough. I've made similar arguments myself, in a real-world, human context. But it also makes little sense to say "I'm not saving humanity because I'm human and if I save humanity, then I'm just part of the problem". What's the compelling reason to save any one race over any of the others? The ME universe makes it so that they all have  glaring strengths and weaknesses to offer the galaxy. Heck, you can make a case that humanity's relative genetic diversity makes it the "moral" choice, since it offers the most potential for proliferation and adaptation of life throughout the galaxy. Of course, you can make several arguments against humanity as well. Same is true for all the other races.

I am not stating that....what I am stating is Shep is fighting for ALL species not just his own.

Well, that's definitely true but it doesn't answer my question. I think ME3 is clearly meant to be about saving all organic life in the galaxy, not just humanity. I think some people have become hung up on the fact that the reapers have come to earth and now think it's about just saivng humans (not saying you're one of them. it sounds like you may have been arguing with some of them, though).

[vehzeel]

As much as I like the asari, if I have to choose between them and humanity, the answer is simple: the asari's gotta go.

[sedrikhcain]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

True...though this fails to work once we hit species level...an unknown human is just as foreign as a unknown alien.

Not really. There's evolutionary familiarity and identity with an unknown human. An unknown alien depends on what their dominant features are (more presumed familiarity with, say, Salrians than Rachni).

I am generally much more affected by culture than race/species...species really doesn't hold a lot of meaning to me, but culture does....I find my relating or not relating to species in ME is purely driven by how I view their culture.

Not least, mind you, because your basis of comparison is other humans. You're making about the same sort of defense of pre-modern racism: back before Europe had much contact with other continents white-on-white distinctions were far more common than white-vs-anything else. Once continental travel started, however, you saw a cultural shift dominated less color than ethnicity. You're in the same position: because your awareness is to your immediate surroundings, you think that's what dominates. As your awareness expands, however, you raise to the next level.

In truth, aliens aren't going to be humans with funny skin suits. You'll have far more biology and culture in common with today's China than an alien civilization that has entirely different evolutionary/social considerations that shaped it.

Indeed that would seem logical but we really don't know.

[Warlocomotf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Benezia willingly joined Saren because she knew he was going to do great evils, and she was willing to help if it led to a greater good (such as diminishing them later). If that's not the flaws of aggressive, nothing is. Likewise, her mindset was distinctly paternalist, so check that as well. And self-interested... yes. A mitigating a common threat that could endanger you as well is no less self-interested, especially when you can stand to benefit from it as well (as she would have had it worked).

Benezia risked her live, eand everything she owned as well as the lives of the students who wished to follow her- in hopes of setting Saren on a 'gentler path'. She did not seem intend on forcing Saren, and the Asari Councilor knew her- which means she was a big player under the Asari. The risk here far outweighed any possible personal gains she might have had- esspecially since all implies that she was very well off before this to begin with.

Try harder, then. For one thing, consider the entire argument rather than focusing on one point as if it disproves the rest: for another, consider how allowances in one area are not the same as a lack of restraint in the same, let alone elsewhere.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, could you elaborate?

The later is a poor argument at best, since the presence of a profit doesn't imply a lack of troubles. If a man makes a hundred dollars profit and I take fifty and use some of it to buy him a toy, simply because he ends up more than what he started (fifty and a toy) doesn't mean I wasn't holding him back. Every farmer (and good imperialist) knows that you shear the sheep, not butcher them.

You say it yourself, you shear your sheep. I see absolutely no evidence that the council was doing more than that.

I'm quickly noticing a pattern about you: if one thing doesn't fit a broad expectation it disproves everything.

Aria was thrown into that argument from your side of the bench. And frankly, I find Aria a perfect example!
Every species has it's extremes- and well, if Aria is that extreme for the Asari- I'd say that's very modest when compared to the kind of extremes that Humans go to.

You realize that self-interested people are quite often ambivalent or willing to help others for their own reasons?

Perfectly aware, but that doesn't mean that helping others is therefor automatically because of self interest.