1104 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I consider my group to be the galaxy. Nothing smaller necessary.

And you don't consider the Reapers to be part of the galaxy?

All things considered, they're more of the galaxy than the current cycle. The Reapers are thousands of cycles of civilizations, history, and knowledge. The current cycle is just one.

Then, of course, there's the question about groups in the galaxy that don't consider themselves part of your group. The Turians don't: they consider you just a human. The Batarians don't. The Terminus doesn't. The Council considers itself the galaxy, but you are not the Council.

So many different groups. The one you claim to belong to may well not exist as a unit except in your own mind.

[Dean_the_Young]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You must have mixed something up, because 'priority to one's own group' is rather the requirement and basis for leadership legitimacy.

Generally the alternative ranges from 'quisling' to 'betrayer.'

A spectre's "own group" is the galactic community.

No, a Spectre's own group is their species and the Council, not necessarily in that order but true none the less. The Council itself is three/four/one species, and one not mutually exclusive with prior commitments.

You're not a human special interests representative.

That's exactly what you are and why you have the job.

Also "betrayer" is more often than not a loosely used term with little to no basis in rational argument. If I choose to join [x], and then betray them. Sure, betrayer. If I am born into [y]- than choosing [z] is a perfectly reasonable decision. I do not owe [y] **** just for being born into it.

You did swear a number of oaths of military service in the Alliance, the galactically-recognized leader of Humanity. You do owe them.

[D.Kain]

Maybe we should save everybody by aiding the reapers? Yoy know - salvation through destruction.

[Xilizhra]

And you don't consider the Reapers to be part of the galaxy?

No, they're creations of an earlier cycle. Also trying to kill everything else.

Then, of course, there's the question about groups in the galaxy that don't consider themselves part of your group. The Turians don't: they consider you just a human. The Batarians don't. The Terminus doesn't. The Council considers itself the galaxy, but you are not the Council.

So many different groups. The one you claim to belong to may well not exist as a unit except in your own mind.

So I have to be part of a group that other people would name as one? Why?

You did swear a number of oaths of military service in the Alliance, the galactically-recognized leader of Humanity. You do owe them.

I think being a Spectre supersedes them. And if not, I'm pretty sure dying obviates them. In any case, I'm still saving the galaxy for them.

[D.Kain]

@Xilizhra

You just basically consider all species equal, and don't think humans deserve something extra.

But I want to ask you the same question I was asked here:

Say there are two massive fleets of each species and one needs to be sacrificed during the battle in order to win. If you could save exactly 10 billions, and you could save either 10 billion Asari or 10 billion Humans. Which would it be?

[Seboist]

Traitors like Xiizhra should be sold into slavery to the Batarians.

[Xilizhra]

D.Kain wrote...

@Xilizhra

You just basically consider all species equal, and don't think humans deserve something extra.

But I want to ask you the same question I was asked here:

Say there are two massive fleets of each species and one needs to be sacrificed during the battle in order to win. If you could save exactly 10 billions, and you could save either 10 billion Asari or 10 billion Humans. Which would it be?

Too circumstantial for me to determine just on that information.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

And you don't consider the Reapers to be part of the galaxy?

No, they're creations of an earlier cycle. Also trying to kill everything else.

Ah, so now it's no longer the galaxy but cycles of civilizations.

So I have to be part of a group that other people would name as one? Why?

Because for a group to exist, it has to be acknowledged by other presumed members. Otherwise, it's a delusion of a few (or even just one). A group which does not have such acknowledgement of being a unit does not exist.

The presumption of a greater group that wasn't is a marker of failed revolutions and movements alike. A classic example, for example, was the failure of socialism to gain power in nearly all nations except when it was imposed from the outside. The concept of the communist revolution was that the workers would band together and overthrow the managers/elites in a class-war, but this repeatedly failed because the workers (an actual group for description) didn't view themselves as a single political unit. All the people eagerly awaiting the workers rebellion were disappointed because the workers weren't the group they imagined them to be.

Likewise for your stand that the only group you identify with is the galaxy. That's nice... but if the galaxy doesn't consider itself a unit, it's moot.

There's a good comparison for this, actually. It's the people now adays who try and renounce all national citizenships and declare themselves 'Citizens of Earth.'

I think being a Spectre supersedes them.

Outside of fannon, nothing suggesting such yet.

And if not, I'm pretty sure dying obviates them.

Nope. Being restored from clinical death does not obviate duties and responsibilities. That's not just current law, there's precident at the highest levels of the Alliance on that. (It was the CDN chain on the NAU president who was dead for a year before being revived.)

In any case, I'm still saving the galaxy for them.

Nah, you aren't. You already said you were saving the galaxy for the galaxy. But, more importantly, the context of priorities is what is at hand here.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 août 2011 - 06:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

@Xilizhra

You just basically consider all species equal, and don't think humans deserve something extra.

But I want to ask you the same question I was asked here:

Say there are two massive fleets of each species and one needs to be sacrificed during the battle in order to win. If you could save exactly 10 billions, and you could save either 10 billion Asari or 10 billion Humans. Which would it be?

Too circumstantial for me to determine just on that information.

Presume identical circumstances of effect.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Traitors like Xiizhra should be sold into slavery to the Batarians.

Shape up and don't do such a stupid troll.

[D.Kain]

Xilizhra wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

@Xilizhra

You just basically consider all species equal, and don't think humans deserve something extra.

But I want to ask you the same question I was asked here:

Say there are two massive fleets of each species and one needs to be sacrificed during the battle in order to win. If you could save exactly 10 billions, and you could save either 10 billion Asari or 10 billion Humans. Which would it be?

Too circumstantial for me to determine just on that information.

Why? Seems simple. You can also imagine that reapers are attacking 2 planets at once. The Asari's and Human's planets. While you destroy one groop of reapers the other destroys the other planet, before you can destroy that other groop. It all comes down to your own choice, just like with Kaidan and Ashley. You lose something either way, and both equaly deserve to exist right? Let's say that the numbers of individuals saved is also even.

So what's your choice the Humans or the Asari?

[Aaleel]

I'm shocked so many people are making this decision without any specifics.

Winning the overall war is paramount, or you're not even saving Humanity, you're just postponing its destruction. Then to call people traitors and other stuff. I'm not going to say Humanity just because I'm a human, especially given no specific circumstances.

If the OP wants to give some specifics fine, but until then, it depends on the situation, because I'm trying to win the war with the reapers.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I care about life. My mission as Shepard is to protect as much life as possible. Having said that there is a few things to consider. One being population of a specie vs. another. If you have a choice between allowing 10 billion Asari or 10 billion humans to die if you were to allow 10 billion Asari to die than that would be horrible but the Asari could survive that because they have a much larger population. If you let 10 billion humans die than you would effectively destroyed humanity because we don't have the population to absorb that kind of loss.

Population needs to be taken into account because that equates to the 'importance' of that life. The Quarians are only 300 million strong. if you let 100 million of them die that would be a massive loss, 100 million Turians/Asari/Salarians wouldn't be a massive loss on the greater scale.

[D.Kain]

Aaleel wrote...

I'm shocked so many people are making this decision without any specifics.

Winning the overall war is paramount, or you're not even saving Humanity, you're just postponing its destruction. Then to call people traitors and other stuff. I'm not going to say Humanity just because I'm a human, especially given no specific circumstances.

If the OP wants to give some specifics fine, but until then, it depends on the situation, because I'm trying to win the war with the reapers.

I think the core of the question is about the situation as written in my post above yours. It's about ones preference for the species. 

[Aradace]

 

[Xilizhra]

Because for a group to exist, it has to be acknowledged by other presumed members. Otherwise, it's a delusion of a few (or even just one). A group which does not have such acknowledgement of being a unit does not exist.

Then I suppose I belong to no group.

Nope. Being restored from clinical death does not obviate duties and responsibilities. That's not just current law, there's precident at the highest levels of the Alliance on that. (It was the CDN chain on the NAU president who was dead for a year before being revived.)

Then the Alliance can try court-martialing me after ME3 if I do something they don't like. I just doubt they'll bother.

Why? Seems simple. You can also imagine that reapers are attacking 2 planets at once. The Asari's and Human's planets. While you destroy one groop of reapers the other destroys the other planet, before you can destroy that other groop. It all comes down to your own choice, just like with Kaidan and Ashley. You lose something either way, and both equaly deserve to exist right? Let's say that the numbers of individuals saved is also even.

So what's your choice the Humans or the Asari?

Well, I saved Ashley because she was at the tower and I wanted to rescue the salarian team along with her. In this case... I'd save whomever would be able to replenish their population less well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because for a group to exist, it has to be acknowledged by other presumed members. Otherwise, it's a delusion of a few (or even just one). A group which does not have such acknowledgement of being a unit does not exist.

Then I suppose I belong to no group.

Not really possible, for a career soldier such as Shepard.

Then the Alliance can try court-martialing me after ME3 if I do something they don't like. I just doubt they'll bother.

I do believe they're already doing so at the start of ME3 for you doing something they don't like.

[D.Kain]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because for a group to exist, it has to be acknowledged by other presumed members. Otherwise, it's a delusion of a few (or even just one). A group which does not have such acknowledgement of being a unit does not exist.

Then I suppose I belong to no group.

Nope. Being restored from clinical death does not obviate duties and responsibilities. That's not just current law, there's precident at the highest levels of the Alliance on that. (It was the CDN chain on the NAU president who was dead for a year before being revived.)

Then the Alliance can try court-martialing me after ME3 if I do something they don't like. I just doubt they'll bother.

Why? Seems simple. You can also imagine that reapers are attacking 2 planets at once. The Asari's and Human's planets. While you destroy one groop of reapers the other destroys the other planet, before you can destroy that other groop. It all comes down to your own choice, just like with Kaidan and Ashley. You lose something either way, and both equaly deserve to exist right? Let's say that the numbers of individuals saved is also even.

So what's your choice the Humans or the Asari?

Well, I saved Ashley because she was at the tower and I wanted to rescue the salarian team along with her. In this case... I'd save whomever would be able to replenish their population less well.

And if you couldn't do anything to stop the reapers from killing almost everyone but you can still defeat them, and there is only 10 bilions of Asari and 10 billions of Humans left? If after your choice one species will stop it's existance, what would be your choice then? Species that you don't choose won't have a chance to replenish the population at all.

This is the core question of this topic.

[Xilizhra]

Not really possible, for a career soldier such as Shepard.

The issues have gotten far too big for me to worry about that anymore.

I do believe they're already doing so at the start of ME3 for you doing something they don't like.

Fair enough. We'll see how that goes.

And if you couldn't do anything to stop the reapers from killing almost everyone but you can still defeat them, and there is only 10 bilions of Asari and 10 billions of Humans left? If after your choice one species will stop it's existance, what would be your choice then? Species that you don't choose won't have a chance to replenish the population at all.

Ask me again when that moment happens. I don't do species favoritism and I can't decide this here and now. Though I may lean slightly towards asari because I feel they keep a culture that's better for the galaxy as a whole than the earth-based human culture.

[Warlocomotf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, a Spectre's own group is their species and the Council, not necessarily in that order but true none the less. The Council itself is three/four/one species, and one not mutually exclusive with prior commitments.

A spectre's own group has no links to his or her species, you as a person might- but that's not part of spectre specification.

That's exactly what you are and why you have the job.

That's why they brought me up for the position, that doesn't make it my reason for having that job.

You did swear a number of oaths of military service in the Alliance, the galactically-recognized leader of Humanity. You do owe them.

This I find a pretty good argument. Shepard did swear that Oath. However I do believe Spectre duties take priority to Alliance duties-- this seems implied in the conversation outside the Normandy shortly after becoming a Spectre.

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 22 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not really possible, for a career soldier such as Shepard.

The issues have gotten far too big for me to worry about that anymore.

No they haven't.

I do believe they're already doing so at the start of ME3 for you doing something they don't like.

Fair enough. We'll see how that goes.

The Reapers interrupt, I'm guessing.

Ask me again when that moment happens. I don't do species favoritism and I can't decide this here and now. Though I may lean slightly towards asari because I feel they keep a culture that's better for the galaxy as a whole than the earth-based human culture.

Ironic, given that the Asari culture is basically a projection of certain Earth culture...

[Xilizhra]

No they haven't.

Why?

[Dean_the_Young]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, a Spectre's own group is their species and the Council, not necessarily in that order but true none the less. The Council itself is three/four/one species, and one not mutually exclusive with prior commitments.

A spectre's own group has no links to his or her species, you as a person might- but that's not part of spectre specification.

When said Spectre is drawn out of a xeno-national military, it is.

That's exactly what you are and why you have the job.

That's why they brought me up for the position, that doesn't make it my reason for having that job.

Your reason for having the job is because you are an Alliance soldier who is willing to your duty to the Alliance and your species. They never do away with that, even in the most paragon moral choices: interpretations of what duty to the Alliance entails is up for dispute, but that's the sort of thing that always is. No canonical Shepard ever repudiates their ties to the Alliance, no matter how many players wish to project that.

This I find a pretty good argument. Shepard did swear that Oath. However I do believe Spectre duties take priority to Alliance duties-- this seems implied in the conversation outside the Normandy shortly after becoming a Spectre.

The closest that comes is the Al-Jilani interview, which Shepard can go 'there is no conflict of interest: what's good for the galaxy is good for the Alliance' to 'the Council knows better.'

What's far less is that Shepard is an established symbol of the Alliance and Humanity, as viewed by just about everyone else. When the Council thinks Shepard is crazy, it's not the Council that suffers costs... it's the Alliance. When Shepard's actions earn the Council's favor, it's the Alliance that stands up and receives membership. Shepard doesn't stop being a de-facto Alliance representative until ME2, but Arrival makes clear that both the Alliance and Shepard consider Shepard answerable to the Alliance still.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

No they haven't.

Why?

Because the situation hasn't gone beyond the scope of your priorly established duties and responsibilities, that's why.

[Warlocomotf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ironic, given that the Asari culture is basically a projection of certain Earth culture...

Overall, the Asari seem to have most of the more commendable human attributes.

the asari are known for their elegance, diplomacy, and biotic talent.

The asari instinctively seek to maintain stable balances of economic, political, and military power.