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[Soccer FeverMan]

sorry Liara my Shepard loves you but...the asari are dying.

[RAF1940]

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

sorry Liara my Shepard loves you but...the asari are dying.

same

[SandTrout]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Concerning saving the Council - throughout history military campaigns have been forced to devote significant numbers to protecting military and civilian leadership. This is not unheard of or irrational. Protecting the Council is - to me - the sign of a commander with longer term range of thought.

While your point of commiting military resources toward preserving civilian leadership is valid in general, it does not necessarily apply in this specific circumstance.

The purpose in preserveing civilian leadership is to maintain coheasion of the war effort and being able to mobilize the civilian populus. If Sovereign was able to call in the rest of the Reapers and control the Citadel, civilian leadership would be just as effective as if it was dead, because every cluster would be isolated from every other cluster, completely negating any efforts at coheasive resistance.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

It makes sense to save the Accension because in doing it you take out the Geth fleet that is supporting Sovvy.

There are a few geth around the DA, the same geth who are battling the DA's defenders. The rest of the geth are spread around the nebula.

Destroying those geth does not gain you anything. You lose ships and gain no additional help.

It is a stupid move to make. Make up as many variables to defend your illogical, reckless choice as you want. The game made it clear what the tactical choice was and it was to abandon the DA.

Whenever you use words like stupid you tend to lose whatever validity you may have had in a debate because you've resorted to insults which only prove immaturity.

That being the case I'm going to continue the dabate. Defeating your enemy right when you can makes sense it doesn't make sense to ignore your enemy and turn your back towards them to wait for another enemy to become available. By turning your back it only opens the fleet up to being attacked from behind by the Geth and infront by Sovvy.

Taking out the Geth takes out the Geth which is of massive importance because it now means you only have one enemy to focus on rather than having dozens at the same time.

[Aaleel]

SandTrout wrote...

@Aaleel,

You are expressing an opinion that does not reflect tactical understanding. Once you engage an enemy, it is not as simple to shift to engage a different target. Once reinforcements have been committed to a target, they must continue to engage that target until it is completed, or else retreat before attacking the next objective.

The Citadel Fleet was engaging the Geth, and could not easily shift their fire onto Sovereign without the Geth slaughtering them in turn. The Alliance's 5th fleet was the only uncommitted asset that was available to attack Sovereign, unless you dedicate it to saving the DA, loosing several ships in the process, further limiting assets available to engage Sovereign.

Or since the Geth are engaged with the Citadel Fleet and think that the relays are closed off, you bring in the Alliance Fleet through the now open relay, flank the geth, wipe them out, and move on to Sovereign unbothered by Geth when the arms finally open.

Exactly where did the Geth go if you choose the sacrifice the council.  Did the Citadel fleet just turn to Sovereign once the arms opened.  Because and I quote...

The Citadel Fleet was engaging the Geth, and could not easily shift
their fire onto Sovereign without the Geth slaughtering them in turn.

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 août 2011 - 08:06 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote... need to have your ego taken down a notch.

Ha.

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I love how you act as if your opinion is fact.

That's because it is.

Saphra don't start attacking other peoples egos.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it's that dumb, why does it work so well?

Because BioWare didn't feel like making the lawful-good choice to be a critical mission failure.

It is possible of a stupid plan to work, but when dealing with an unknown like Sovereign, from an in-character perspective, you have no guarantees of sucess, so the smart thing to do would be to maximize your chances, which were not 100% even while abandoning the DA in order to focus on Sovereign.

"The Man Who Knew too Little" situation comes to mind.

[Xilizhra]

SandTrout wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If it's that dumb, why does it work so well?

Because BioWare didn't feel like making the lawful-good choice to be a critical mission failure.

It is possible of a stupid plan to work, but when dealing with an unknown like Sovereign, from an in-character perspective, you have no guarantees of sucess, so the smart thing to do would be to maximize your chances, which were not 100% even while abandoning the DA in order to focus on Sovereign.

"The Man Who Knew too Little" situation comes to mind.

I was, in character, fairly sure that I'd mostly won by that point, thanks to the aforementioned computer business.

[Medhia Nox]

Now if Saphra Deden were on the Destiny Ascension - that would have been a real decision for me to make.

Keep on - keeping on Saphra - your crazy is its own beast, and its one helluva show.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

SandTrout wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If it's that dumb, why does it work so well?

Because BioWare didn't feel like making the lawful-good choice to be a critical mission failure.

Bioware also didn't feel like making the Renegade decision a critical mission failure.

The paragon decision attacks the Geth when they aren't looking, but if you leave the DS the Geth fleet seems to magically disappear and doesn't destroy the fleet from behind once it gets done with the DS that was already on its way out? Why do the Geth disappear? Because if they had appeared like they should have than the fleet would have been taken out. But again BioWare decides not to make that logical event happen.

[SandTrout]

Aaleel wrote...

Or since the Geth are engaged with the Citadel Fleet and think that the relays are closed off, you bring in the Alliance Fleet through the now open relay, flank the geth, wipe them out, and move on to Sovereign unbothered by Geth when the arms finally open.

Sovereign is calling in the Reapers from dark-space, which woul almost certainly completely wipe out both the Citadel and Alliance fleets, so waiting to engage Sovereign(and preventing the Reapers' arrival) is not a reasonable option when you have no idea what kind of time-limit you're operating under in order to stop it.

Exactly where did the Geth go if you choose the sacrifice the council.  Did the Citadel fleet just turn to Sovereign once the arms opened.  Because and I quote...

The Citadel Fleet was engaging the Geth, and could not easily shift
their fire onto Sovereign without the Geth slaughtering them in turn.

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

Modifié par SandTrout, 22 août 2011 - 08:16 .

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

I was, in character, fairly sure that I'd mostly won by that point, thanks to the aforementioned computer business.

That is a hell of an assumption from using an ancient prothean program to counter an even more ancient AI dreadnaught that was responsible for the creation of the Mass Relays and Citadel.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I was, in character, fairly sure that I'd mostly won by that point, thanks to the aforementioned computer business.

Your character was certain, but only because they were arrogant and overconfident.

That Sovereign wound up being destroyed anyway was a good fortune, but it was an outcome you were actively working against.

Luck is all it was.

Maybe. Regardless, it worked. That's all that matters.

[Aaleel]

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

[breakdown71289]

Call it luck or divine intervention, it still had to happen for the greater good.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. Regardless, it worked. That's all that matters.

"But it was stupid and dumb luck,and it shoudln't have worked."

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. Regardless, it worked. That's all that matters.

No, that is not all that matters. Your character has poor decision make skills if all s/he gets by on is luck. She's setting herself up for disaster.

Well, disaster hasn't happened yet. We'll see how it goes.

[RAF1940]

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

In all fairness, the cutscene did only show Alliance ships fighting Sovereign at the end (two turian Citadel Defense ships were shown, but one was destroyed by being rammed by Sovereign).

The Citadel fleet was, at the point, pretty much wiped out (Codex says Citadel lost most of its fleet).

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. Regardless, it worked. That's all that matters.

No, that is not all that matters. Your character has poor decision make skills if all s/he gets by on is luck. She's setting herself up for disaster.

Or I have set myself up for ultimate success.

[Wulfram]

SandTrout wrote...
Sovereign is calling in the Reapers from dark-space, which woul almost certainly completely wipe out both the Citadel and Alliance fleets, so waiting to engage Sovereign(and preventing the Reapers' arrival) is not a reasonable option when you have no idea what kind of time-limit you're operating under in order to stop it.

Sovereign gets engaged at the same time either way - as soon as the Citadel arms open.  The question is whether the 5th fleet should engage and destroy the enemy, or dither while their allies are destroyed.

[Aaleel]

RAF1940 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

In all fairness, the cutscene did only show Alliance ships fighting Sovereign at the end (two turian Citadel Defense ships were shown, but one was destroyed by being rammed by Sovereign).

The Citadel fleet was, at the point, pretty much wiped out (Codex says Citadel lost most of its fleet).

If the Alliance "reinforcements" alone took down Sovereign I don't want to hear anything else about Paragon players being in some world with Rainbows and pink bunny rabbits where the game makes everything OK in the end.

[SandTrout]

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

Yes.